A conclusive argument for why Blacks don't deserve reparations

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A lot of the reparations arguments are based around the idea that modern Blacks suffer because their ancestors were slaves. It is believed that because their ancestors lacked opportunities for capital (including human capital) accumulation due to slavery and segregation, they had less to offer their children, and so there is an echo of poor economic performance that will outlast the initial cause for a long time unless artificial measures are taken to compensate for it.

This would be a valid line of reasoning, except for one thing. We have direct proof that slavery gave the modern Black a higher, not lower, standard of living.

Imagine if you were born Black in a world where the United States had never had slavery. Then you would have been born, aside from a tiny number of immigrants (equivalent to our real-world African immigrant ppulation) in Africa. The absence of American slavery would barely budge the numbers of the Atlantic Slave Trade, and slave raiding was already a time-honored tradition of the West African people, although intensified after the Columbian Exchange. So you can't really imagine that the destruction brought by the Slave Trade would be any worse just because the US specifically was not importing slaves, in this scenario.

So you would presumably have a living standard similar to a modern day African.

Now, let us compare Sub-Saharan GDP per capita (PPP) with median personal income of Black Americans. Mind you, median personal income will always be SMALLER than GDP per capita since no society can put 100% of its production into consumption.


So the Sub-Saharan African lives in shit compared to the American Black. It's a difference of at least four times.

So the American Black, living in the agony of a post-slavery, post-segregation world, is considerably better off than if he had been left in Africa.

A relevant quote from Booker Washington, one of America's top Black leaders back when most older folks were ex-slaves:

"I pity from the bottom of my heart any nation or body of people that is so unfortunate as to get entangled in the net of slavery. I have long since ceased to cherish any spirit of bitterness against the Southern white people on account of the enslavement of my race. No one section of our country was wholly responsible for its introduction ... Having once got its tentacles fastened on to the economic and social life of the Republic, it was no easy matter for the country to relieve itself of the institution. Then, when we rid ourselves of prejudice, or racial feeling, and look facts in the face, we must acknowledge that, notwithstanding the cruelty and moral wrong of slavery, the ten million Negroes inhabiting this country, who themselves or whose ancestors went through the school of American slavery, are in a stronger and more hopeful condition, materially, intellectually, morally, and religiously, than is true of an equal number of black people in any other portion of the globe. ... This I say, not to justify slavery—on the other hand, I condemn it as an institution, as we all know that in America it was established for selfish and financial reasons, and not from a missionary motive—but to call attention to a fact, and to show how Providence so often uses men and institutions to accomplish a purpose. When persons ask me in these days how, in the midst of what sometimes seem hopelessly discouraging conditions, I can have such faith in the future of my race in this country, I remind them of the wilderness through which and out of which, a good Providence has already led us.[36]"

 

Daisymae

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Also, consider what happened when Blacks returned to Liberia. The Blacks who went to Liberia post-Civil War were a minority but were able to create some semblance of industry and exploit the Africans who never went to the US. Therefore, slavery was compulsory sort of experience for Blacks that taught capitalism.

To give today's Blacks reparations would be detrimental to their lifestyle.
 
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Also, consider what happened when Blacks returned to Liberia. The Blacks who went to Liberia post-Civil War were a minority but were able to create some semblance of industry and exploit the Africans who never went to the US. Therefore, slavery was compulsory sort of experience for Blacks that taught capitalism.

To give today's Blacks reparations would be detrimental to their lifestyle.

Yeah, they basically enslaved the locals and imposed a system of segregation without calling it slavery (although it was still based around forced labor, still involved people buying and selling the forced labor in markets, etc.).

I saw a news clip of some shithead Liberian-American in Minneapolis screeching about slavery. That motherfucker has almost certainly gotten more benefit out of slaveholding ancestors than I have.
 

mr.moon1488

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TLDR

Nigger: Eyo sheit man, your ppl done did shiet to us 200 years ago, you'z owez us money yalls. gibs me dat sheit

White man: No, the Jews sold your ancestors to us, and we've been putting up with your constant raping and pillaging of our lands ever since. You don't recall Libera? We tried sending you back once already.
 

Watermelanin

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I agree that niggers don't deserve reparations, but this particular argument is kinda weak.
The standard of living blacks have is higher in the US than Africa because the standard of living OVERALL is higher in the US. Had it not been for slavery and all the objectively racist shit that followed, blacks would still live here. And those that live here would arguably have a higher standard of living today than they do now. Slavery isn't the only reason we have blacks living here, but it is likely one reason why their lives here are such shit compared to the broader population.
 
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I agree that niggers don't deserve reparations, but this particular argument is kinda weak.
The standard of living blacks have is higher in the US than Africa because the standard of living OVERALL is higher in the US. Had it not been for slavery and all the objectively racist shit that followed, blacks would still live here. And those that live here would arguably have a higher standard of living today than they do now. Slavery isn't the only reason we have blacks living here, but it is likely one reason why their lives here are such shit compared to the broader population.

You're missing the point. The descendants of slaves, which comprises the vast majority of American Blacks, are better off than the people who are not the descendants of slaves (the vast majority of Africans). Slavery obviously put the descendants of slaves at a disadvantage compared to Whites, but it did not put them at a disadvantage but at an advantage compared to Africans, and that is the relevant comparison, since the question is the effect of slavery on Blacks specifically. Since we're interested in the effect of slavery on Africans and their descendants, our scenarios are be an African or be an American Black. The latter scenario is a much more comfortable life than the former in almost every aspect of existence if not every aspect.

African immigrants shouldn't have any echo of American slavery effect on them in the first place, and there's no reason to suppose that the African population here would be anywhere near as large if there wasn't slavery. The logical comparison there is to Asian Americans or Middle-Eastern Americans. Minuscule groups.
 

Watermelanin

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You're missing the point. The descendants of slaves, which comprises the vast majority of American Blacks, are better off than the people who are not the descendants of slaves (the vast majority of Africans). Slavery obviously put the descendants of slaves at a disadvantage compared to Whites, but it did not put them at a disadvantage but at an advantage compared to Africans, and that is the relevant comparison, since the question is the effect of slavery on Blacks specifically. Since we're interested in the effect of slavery on Africans and their descendants, our scenarios are be an African or be an American Black. The latter scenario is a much more comfortable life than the former in almost every aspect of existence if not every aspect.

African immigrants shouldn't have any echo of American slavery effect on them in the first place, and there's no reason to suppose that the African population here would be anywhere near as large if there wasn't slavery. The logical comparison there is to Asian Americans or Middle-Eastern Americans. Minuscule groups.
I was thinking of a sensible rebuttal to this... but I got nothing. I guess I'm just dumb and autistic.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

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The best argument against reperations is that they are unfeasable. You'd need blacks people to be able to prove connection to slaves, which most of them won't be able to do. How much reperations a guy can recieve is also a question - Is having a single ancestor who was a slave enough even if the other side of the family are billionaires, how do you calculate it, how do you prove that you are connected to a long dead dude and that his wife didn't cheat on him? And like the strike-through implies, you don't need to be black to have a slave ancestor and vice-versa. Basically, the only people who will benefit from it are people from high income families who can use this to claim they deserve university admission/job opportunities.
And if you want a non-logistical argument just use Jews, Irish, Indians (the ones from India) and Asians who came to the USA with nothing (at least some of them), suffered racism, including institutional racism, but became either a normal part of the populace or far more successful than the majority.
 

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Reparations for interned Japanese when?
TIL. Thank you @Iceland Heavy.
Reparations for Barbary Coast slave trade when?

IMO another part of the unfeasibility is this issue. If this one single group gets their reparations, then what about [that other one]? How long do we go back for real or imagined atrocities? What's going to count as a sufficient atrocity?

This would bring a horrendous escalation, just like the deaths of Kobe Bryant and George Floyd. While these two died in very different situations, both events brought a hysterical escalation of virtue signaling and dumb gestures. What's going to happen when Michael Jordan dies? Or when ten joggers get hosed at a drug deal gone extremely wrong?
 
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Xarpho

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Reparations for interned Japanese when?
Reparations for Barbary Coast slave trade when?

IMO another part of the unfeasibility is this issue. If this one single group gets their reparations, then what about [that other one]? How long do we go back for real or imagined atrocities? What's going to count as a sufficient atrocity?

This would bring a horrendous escalation, just like the deaths of Kobe Bryant and George Floyd. While these two died in very different situations, both events brought a hysterical escalation of virtue signaling and dumb gestures. What's going to happen when Michael Jordan dies? Or when ten joggers get hosed at a drug deal gone extremely wrong?
I don't remember a "hysterical escalation of virtue signaling" when Kobe died. Apart from some MSNBC newswoman making a word that sounded like "Nickers" (one way of interpreting it) and the usual over-the-top celebrity death mourning from social media, I don't remember anyone protesting in the streets, starting fires, or getting whole corporations to make some public statement on racism.
 

Iceland Heavy

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Reparations for interned Japanese when?
This actually did happen.
The difference being it was given to actual internees that were still alive at the time instead of shrugging and giving every Asian or even Japanese person in the US money 150 years after the fact because at one point one of their ancestors might've gotten fucked over. If reparations for slavery were going to happen they should've taken place during Reconstruction, they're a pandering exercise in futility now.
 

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I don't remember a "hysterical escalation of virtue signaling" when Kobe died. Apart from some MSNBC newswoman making a word that sounded like "Nickers" (one way of interpreting it) and the usual over-the-top celebrity death mourning from social media, I don't remember anyone protesting in the streets, starting fires, or getting whole corporations to make some public statement on racism.
Well, obviously, there were no riots, but the way I remember it, the mourning was ramped up to 11. There were calls to a league-wide retirement for all of his numbers, tweets of eternal support and prayers and thoughts, college fund for his surviving children and retirement fund for his widow, etc.
 

Dom Cruise

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This actually did happen.
The difference being it was given to actual internees that were still alive at the time instead of shrugging and giving every Asian or even Japanese person in the US money 150 years after the fact because at one point one of their ancestors might've gotten fucked over. If reparations for slavery were going to happen they should've taken place during Reconstruction, they're a pandering exercise in futility now.

Penn & Teller Bullshit did an episode on Reparations in 2006 and they addressed this, their attitude was that it makes sense if you're giving money directly to the actual people affected, but doesn't make sense to give money to descendants.
 

Tour of Italy

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I made a post about this in the last reparations thread about a year ago.


I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations on this earlier today.

A conservative estimate for the amount of 2019 valued federal money spent directly on black people via social programs such as SNAP, Medicare, urban development, etc. since 1969 (around the period of welfare expansion) is about $8 trillion, or about $200,000 per black person alive today / $400,000 per black person alive in 1970. This is not counting state budgets (combined 1/8th the size of the federal budget roughly), scholarships, charity, or any social program or infrastructure projects that benefited all Americans more or less equally. For comparison, the average american will withdraw $600,000 worth of social security for 25 years after retirement, so these benefits aren't ridiculously out-of-scale, but it's still a fuckton of money overall.

To put it another way, it's about 2-4% of the GDP of the most advanced industrial economy of the 20th century being directly poured into the black community for 60 years. If we're talking reparations for slavery alone, this amount dwarfs, by orders of magnitude, the amount of productivity produced by America's slave population even over the relatively long period of the Atlantic slave trade. It gets muddier if you want to apply, with interest, the impact of discriminatory culture or policy during the 19th and 20th century, or if you consider the current generation of Africa-Americans entitled to the wealth generated by the work of slaves that grew from investment. But at that point, how can you make a specific claim that wealth from slavery is more important or traceable, compared to other exploitative labor practices such as indentured servitude, or early industrial mining towns, wage-fixing from monopolistic industries etc. The whole thing drifts into widespread redistributionism, but somehow worse because it takes a unique, racially specific, identifiable evil and elevates it miles above the general grey-area oppression that has plagued all modern societies.

The main point here is that aside from the logistical impossibility of making reparations reasonable and just to the point where they're anything other than a check cashed out to people with a certain skin color signed by people with a different skin color, the massive amount of community-specific aid already disbursed to African Americans in the past hundred years needs to be taken into account. And it's not a small amount by any stretch. To the point where it really begs the question as to why additional reparations are necessary. Or even worth it, considering the fact that $200k-$400k a fucking head hasn't fixed any systemic divide, at least according to these clowns. The argument that maybe loudly bitching and throwing money at the problem isn't the solution starts to make a bit more sense. That and the thought that social programs have not been (or maybe were never even designed to be) successful at unilaterally raising the African American community out of poverty doesn't seem so far-fetched.

EDIT: Grammar that was bothering me.
 
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I made a post about this is the last reparations thread about a year ago.
>Create government programmes
>Lose most of the money through a nepotistic hiring practice
>Tax the rest
>"Job done"
Those people would be better off if they just got the money in the first place. Government programmes are almost always bad.

Really we should be preventing the many ways that all people are getting screwed by the money grubbers. Kill the bankers and turn the economy towards a production economy rather than one that is driven by investors.
 
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>Create government programmes
>Lose most of the money through a nepotistic hiring practice
>Tax the rest
>"Job done"
Those people would be better off if they just got the money in the first place. Government programmes are almost always bad.

Really we should be preventing the many ways that all people are getting screwed by the money grubbers. Kill the bankers and turn the economy towards a production economy rather than one that is driven by investors.

“Towards a production economy”
“Rather than one that is driven by investors”

k