Abortion - An age old issue

autisticdragonkin

Eric Borsheim
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What do other kiwis think about abortion

There are several questions that are raised with abortion:
Does the Fetus have rights? If so how do they affect the rights of the woman?
Should the Father have any input on whether an abortion should take place?
How do things such as maternal risk, fetal risk, and rape affect the morality of abortion?
And how does the morality of abortion affect whether it should be legal

I think that the fetus does not have rights because it doesn't have the ability to make decisions yet.
I think that both parents must consent to an abortion if the sex was consensual.

I think that the only acceptable justifications for abortion are fetal disability, maternal risk, and rape (if it was the woman who was a rapist she should be forced to have an abortion). I think that maternal risk should have a compensation given to the father for his lost child.

I think that other reasons for abortions are illegitimate but as long as they still involve both parents consenting then I don't see any reason that they should be illegal


EDIT: Due to the discussion in this thread I changed my mind on abortion and now think that the only thing that is necessary is for women to be able to make legally binding contracts affecting their right to have an abortion (requiring or prohibiting it in certain circumstances) and as a result it would have the same effect of allowing men who are wanting to have children getting to keep their children and preventing spite abortions but at the same time it would avoid the casual sex issue (but I haven't changed my mind on what constitutes an abortion that I approve of)
 
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Billy_Sama

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Not to detract from the debate on abortion, but I feel that the whole debate detracts from the problem of the causes of unwanted pregnancy like unprotected sex and rape. I feel that most anti abortion views, mostly on from religious groups, fail address such causes and not pragmatic enough to create a solution to end abortion.
 

SpacePanther

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Out of curiosity, what would happen if one parent but not the other consented? I feel like that's a set up for a shitty life for the kid, and a shitty marriage/relationship if both have very opposing views on the issue, or if one doesn't want the kid, and just happened to get pregnant even though all types of birth control were used. People who don't want kids, even if their partner does, I feel like should not have to have one, especially if an accident. Obviously I would think it's wrong if you're trying to have a kid and then suddenly you decide you don't want it, but otherwise that seems to get a bit...strange subject wise.
 

autisticdragonkin

Eric Borsheim
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Out of curiosity, what would happen if one parent but not the other consented? I feel like that's a set up for a shitty life for the kid, and a shitty marriage/relationship if both have very opposing views on the issue, or if one doesn't want the kid, and just happened to get pregnant even though all types of birth control were used. People who don't want kids, even if their partner does, I feel like should not have to have one, especially if an accident. Obviously I would think it's wrong if you're trying to have a kid and then suddenly you decide you don't want it, but otherwise that seems to get a bit...strange subject wise.
If one parent wanted an abortion but not the other then the one who didn't want the abortion would get custody (I was talking about this as though they had broken up beforehand and the man wanted a child whereas the woman didn't. I doubt that a relationship would survive an abortion dispute in which one partner unilaterally aborted the child anyways
 

SpacePanther

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If one parent wanted an abortion but not the other then the one who didn't want the abortion would get custody (I was talking about this as though they had broken up beforehand and the man wanted a child whereas the woman didn't. I doubt that a relationship would survive an abortion dispute in which one partner unilaterally aborted the child anyways
That still seems weird to me, even if broke up, I definitely don't think a woman should be forced to carry to term if she didn't want it for the man she broke up with, if that were the case. Obviously the other way around has a different set of problems to it, but there's not a case of forcing someone to use their body for something they don't want.
 

Gym Leader Elesa

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I think that both parents must consent to an abortion if the sex was consensual.
I don't think that both parents need consent, it is the mother's right at a certain point (sort of)- but I think the father should have the right to disown the child as long as he disowns it in the same period during which an could abortion legally occur (assuming the woman decided to have the child.)

(Powerlevel: my father did this in the case of my birth, and I believe he had the right to do so. I have never met the man, but I would never track him down or bother him over it.)
 

autisticdragonkin

Eric Borsheim
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I don't think that both parents need consent, it is the mother's right at a certain point (sort of)- but I think the father should have the right to disown the child as long as he disowns it in the same period during which an could abortion legally occur (assuming the woman decided to have the child.)
I don't really understand why it is the woman's right to entire control when only half of the child comes from her. I would say that if she incurs a loss from carrying the child such as not being able to perform a job then she should be compensated for it by the father (possibly to the point that the father wouldn't be able to pay it and she could get an abortion unilaterally). I did say that if she were to be likely to have medical complications then she could do it unilaterally at risk of lawsuit (the typical settlement being simply to be forced to have another child with him if there isn't medical risk in that)
 
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kookerpie

kiwifarms.net
I don't think that both parents need consent, it is the mother's right at a certain point (sort of)- but I think the father should have the right to disown the child as long as he disowns it in the same period during which an could abortion legally occur (assuming the woman decided to have the child.)

(Powerlevel: my father did this in the case of my birth, and I believe he had the right to do so. I have never met the man, but I would never track him down or bother him over it.)
I agree. But the government would need to be more heavily invested in the child's life.
 

SpacePanther

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If a mother kills her child after it's born she gets life in prison or death. The same should be true of abortion.
Except that usually means mom wanted it at first, gave birth to it, making it a living person. and then killed it, aka killing a person. Sure, you shouldn't abort after a certain period of time because the baby is sentient, but otherwise it's a pack of cells growing in the body, like a tumor or etc would. Plus, if you outlaw abortion or don't allow it, babies that are born and can actually feel pain will die because, hey, mom didn't get a choice, she didn't want to be a mother, adoption is very tricky or puts a child at risk of being a technical orphan for the rest of its life because you rely on strangers to want it, and there are so many kids in that situation because mom wasn't allowed to abort. It's stupid to keep a child you don't want.
 

Jon-Kacho

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like a tumor
Never have I had a better reason to rate someone Islamic Content.

adoption is very tricky or puts a child at risk of being a technical orphan for the rest of its life
I think adoption should be heavily encouraged to married couples as an alternative to having biological children, and that foster homes should get a lot more funding. Foster homes and adoption are some of the only places I'd actually approve of my tax money going.

there are so many kids in that situation because mom wasn't allowed to abort
I'd imagine most of them would still prefer to be alive, and even if they don't their lives could still get better.
 

Sperglord Dante

Useless Guato
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I'm all in for elective abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, and I think it's a reasonable compromise between the rights of the mother and the future child.

I think adoption should be heavily encouraged to married couples as an alternative to having biological children, and that foster homes should get a lot more funding.
That's just wouldn't work. We long to have offsprings of our own to satisfy our primal urge of perpetuating our genes; that's why countless couples choose to exhaust all (expensive) fertility treatments out there before even thinking adopting. It's not really rational, but it is the way it is.
Foster homes and adoption are some of the only places I'd actually approve of my tax money going.
I hope you like your tax money going to homeless shelters and the jail system too, 'cause that's where many orphans end up after the foster homes kick them out at 18.
 

SpacePanther

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Never have I had a better reason to rate someone Islamic Content.


I think adoption should be heavily encouraged to married couples as an alternative to having biological children, and that foster homes should get a lot more funding. Foster homes and adoption are some of the only places I'd actually approve of my tax money going.


I'd imagine most of them would still prefer to be alive, and even if they don't their lives could still get better.
I do apologize somewhat because I did jump the deep end a tad bit with the tumor comment.

However, I don't believe a lot of them would prefer to be alive, especially if they've been through the foster system and etc. Speaking from some experience, the kids that go through foster homes and to adoption centers have much higher depression and suicide rates and just feels counter productive. Of course, that's them being older but I still think abortion should be up to the parents or whoever is making the decision for themselves.

More curious than anything, what's your take on rape/incest babies and in cases where either the mom dies giving birth or the baby gets aborted to save her life?
 

autisticdragonkin

Eric Borsheim
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That's just wouldn't work. We long to have offsprings of our own to satisfy our primal urge of perpetuating our genes; that's why countless couples choose to exhaust all (expensive) fertility treatments out there before even thinking adopting. It's not really rational, but it is the way it is.
It is only not rational if your goal that you are trying to pursue isn't genetic transmission
However, I don't believe a lot of them would prefer to be alive, especially if they've been through the foster system and etc. Speaking from some experience, the kids that go through foster homes and to adoption centers have much higher depression and suicide rates and just feels counter productive. Of course, that's them being older but I still think abortion should be up to the parents or whoever is making the decision for themselves.
I think that you really underestimate the human desire to be alive. Even people who commit suicide oftentimes try to halt it partway through so I think that people dying from suicide might actually be them failing and "failed suicide attempts" are the successful ones. I can quite confidently say that I would rather be alive in a bad situation such as being a child soldier or in the fostercare system then be dead without even having had a chance at life.
I'm all in for elective abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, and I think it's a reasonable compromise between the rights of the mother and the future child.
But what about the rights of the father? Don't we want gender equality?
 
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SpacePanther

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It is only not rational if your goal that you are trying to pursue isn't genetic transmission

I think that you really underestimate the human desire to be alive. Even people who commit suicide oftentimes try to halt it partway through so I think that people dying from suicide might actually be them failing and "failed suicide attempts" are the successful ones. I can quite confidently say that I would rather be alive in a bad situation such as being a child soldier or in the fostercare system then be dead without even having had a chance at life.

But what about the rights of the father? Don't we want gender equality?
Perhaps I do, like I said, it's from my point of experience but I feel the unborn child doesn't quite know that drive to live yet, in speaking of that. Also, did not know that about suicide attempts, I never considered that point of view. But, I still must say I politely disagree.
 

Gym Leader Elesa

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I do apologize somewhat because I did jump the deep end a tad bit with the tumor comment.

However, I don't believe a lot of them would prefer to be alive, especially if they've been through the foster system and etc. Speaking from some experience, the kids that go through foster homes and to adoption centers have much higher depression and suicide rates and just feels counter productive. Of course, that's them being older but I still think abortion should be up to the parents or whoever is making the decision for themselves.

More curious than anything, what's your take on rape/incest babies and in cases where either the mom dies giving birth or the baby gets aborted to save her life?
I am not at the center of this discussion, but I would to chime in that while the statistics seem very convincing in some cases, your position seems a little harsh to that minority of kids who would rather be fucking alive. Their right to be so trumps the experiences and desires of those who would rather die, in all cases. Those individuals can simply kill themselves. The aborted can't bring themselves back to life. I will say, from some personal experience myself, that there are also a considerable number of orphans who use their status to argue against abortion despite many of their (frankly awful) experiences, and tend to simply advocate reform of the adoption systems currently in place. This needs to happen, even in a state where abortion is legally and socially accepted, though that is a side issue.

That's just wouldn't work. We long to have offsprings of our own to satisfy our primal urge of perpetuating our genes; that's why countless couples choose to exhaust all (expensive) fertility treatments out there before even thinking adopting. It's not really rational, but it is the way it is.
This is true, but only strikes me as another one of those primal urges that civilization exists to correct. People also naturally kill, rape, and steal, because human beings are animals. But we don't just accept that. Again, even in a state where abortion is legal and accepted as a reproductive option, this would still need to be emphasized. There will always be orphans.


But what about the rights of the father? Don't we want gender equality?
I would agree with you up to a point, but let's be real here: the horrors, particularly in terms of domestic abuse that that could result in, are almost uncountable. The best we can do is give the father their own sort of abortion-equivalent and allow them to walk away. While there is a chance that shitty kids will demand the right to "know their father" and this is a fate the mother could escape, it is the best we can do.
 

Sperglord Dante

Useless Guato
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But what about the rights of the father? Don't we want gender equality?
Parents aren't really on equal footing in this case considering one of them might go through excruciating pain and hormone-induced psychological alterations while the other one only has to drive to the hospital. Forcing a woman to carry a man's child against her will is frankly horrible and I could never approve of that (unless she can't make up her mind during the first 12 weeks or whatever other guideline you use).

I don't believe men should be forced to pay child support for a biological child they didn't want, though.
 

Gym Leader Elesa

The Luna Liege Lord
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Parents aren't really on equal footing in this case considering one of them might go through excruciating pain and hormone-induced psychological alterations while the other one only has to drive to the hospital. Forcing a woman to carry a man's child against her will is frankly horrible (unless she can't make up her mind during the first 12 weeks or whatever other guideline you use).

I don't believe men should be forced to pay child support for a biological child they didn't want, though.
I wish I could agree with this statement fifty times over, however else our positions on the issue might differ.
 

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