Abortion - An age old issue

PorcupineTree

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And who has it the hardest =/= who has higher jurisdiction to decide the fate of other people.

If one person has to distort themselves, rearrange their internal organs and irreversibly change shape over the course of nine months, it seems fair for them to have the biggest say in choosing whether it happens.


If that were the case then Congress should be completely made up of gay black crippled midgets because they've had the hardest lives so they can obviously decide what's best for everyone else, right?
You’re losing me with this analogy.
 

cactus

Cactus Juice Connoisseur
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Yep. Same thing applies to guys. Maybe sticking your dick into everything that moves isn't such a good idea at the end of the day.

Depends if every surprise pregnancy results in shitty parenting. I'm ignorant on that front.

If you don't want to be punished with a kid you don't want to raise then don't be an exceptional individual. Life sucks.
Guys can easily get out of child rearing and child support if they aren't listed on the birth certificate. That's what abortion is for, so we already have a problem solved. But it's kinda pathetic you think it's your business anyway.
 

samuraicrack

General Coughing Cyborg Man
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If one person has to distort themselves, rearrange their internal organs
Pregnancy isn't body horror.
irreversibly change shape over the course of nine months
Do you not know what the word "irreversibly" means?
it seems fair for them to have the biggest say in choosing whether it happens
No, it really doesn't. That's pretty much the logic that leads to parents being able to abuse their kids and do whatever they want with them. Just because you carried and created them doesn't mean you have full jurisdiction to do whatever you want with them.
You’re losing me with this analogy.
"Having it hard =/= making good decisions."

Guys can easily get out of child rearing and child support if they aren't listed on the birth certificate.
Too bad the vast majority of women remember the names of the guy that knocked them up on top of the fact that it's completely up to them to fill out the certificate with the father's name if they choose to do so.
But it's kinda pathetic you think it's your business anyway.
This entire thread is about getting involved in other people's business, you tool.
 

PorcupineTree

kiwifarms.net
Pregnancy isn't body horror.

Do you not know what the word "irreversibly" means?

No, it really doesn't. That's pretty much the logic that leads to parents being able to abuse their kids and do whatever they want with them. Just because you carried and created them doesn't mean you have full jurisdiction to do whatever you want with them.

"Having it hard =/= making good decisions."


Too bad the vast majority of women remember the names of the guy that knocked them up on top of the fact that it's completely up to them to fill out the certificate with the father's name if they choose to do so.

This entire thread is about getting involved in other people's business, you tool.
You don't know how pregnancy works and your confidence in talking about it is exceptional.

Here is a diagram of a regular woman's body and a pregnant woman's body. Notice the changes that occur when she's got a fetus in there. She distorts and her organs rearrange.

(Unrelated but the clitoris is labelled here too, in case you need you also need that.)

pregnancyorgansjpg.jpg


Here are some of the common temporary changes that occur with pregnancy:

-fatigue

-nausia

-
larger feet (this change can actually stay for about 6 years)

-
gestational diabeties (happens in about 10% of women)



Here are some of the common permanant changes that occur with pregnancy:

-scars and stretch marks from skin tearing as it expands

-hip bones widening as they're forced apart during childbirth

- because childbirth damages your bladder's supportive tissue and nerves, there's the loss of bladder control and eventual prolapsed pelvic floor. C-sections can cause this too.

-varicose veins

I could go on but there's just so much stuff. A lot of this info is available for free on the world wide web if you want to search for yourself.

-------

In regard to your analogy:

In order it for it to even slightly work, membership in congress would have to physically change those people so they are no longer a minority.

"having it hard =/= making good decisions" is a false premise. Nobody made the claim that having it hard allows you to make good decisions. The element of "making decisions for other people" also relies on the assumption that a fetus is human, which is something a lot of people in this thread don't believe.
 
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samuraicrack

General Coughing Cyborg Man
kiwifarms.net
You don't know how pregnancy works and your confidence in talking about it is exceptional.

Here is a diagram of a regular woman's body and a pregnant woman's body. Notice the changes that occur when she's got a fetus in there. She distorts and her organs rearrange.

(Unrelated but the clitoris is labelled here too, in case you need you also need that.)

View attachment 613893

Here are some of the common temporary changes that occur with pregnancy:

-fatigue

-nausia

-
larger feet (this change can actually stay for about 6 years)

-
gestational diabeties (happens in about 10% of women)



Here are some of the common permanant changes that occur with pregnancy:

-scars and stretch marks from skin tearing as it expands

-hip bones widening as they're forced apart during childbirth

- because childbirth damages your bladder's supportive tissue and nerves, there's the loss of bladder control and eventual prolapsed pelvic floor. C-sections can cause this too.

-varicose veins

I could go on but there's just so much stuff. A lot of this info is available for free on the world wide web if you want to search for yourself.

-------

In regard to your analogy:

In order it for it to even slightly work, membership in congress would have to physically change those people so they are no longer a minority.

"having it hard =/= making good decisions" is a false premise. Nobody made the claim that having it hard allows you to make good decisions. The element of "making decisions for other people" also relies on the assumption that a fetus is human, which is something a lot of people in this thread don't believe.
Look, I’ve given my two cents and no amount of essay long paragraphs is gonna change my opinion. To me at least, who and how the kid was created is always gonna be more important than who carried the kid that wouldn’t even be there if it weren’t for who created it and how it was created. The father is one of the two main catalysts for that, so I think he should get some say in what happens to the kid, at least if he cares. If he doesn’t then the woman can do whatever she wants with the kid, including aborting it. The end.

At least we can have a somewhat civil discussion on here without anyone being labeled as a Nazi or being spinkicked in the head.
 
At least we can have a somewhat civil discussion on here without anyone being labeled as a Nazi or being spinkicked in the head.
Goddamn it, then why have I been practicing my spinkicks? You fucking nazi!

Anyway, here's a random thing I was considering that relates to this. Is it unethical or immoral or whatever for a woman who is within the window for legal abortion to drink alcohol? Because the thing she's damaging isn't a human, right? And we can't consider the future human, because if we do then we have to consider abortion murder of a future human. So why does our society harshly judge women who drink while pregnant, while saying they should be able to have an abortion if they want to without being judged?

What if she drinks enough to kill the fetus? Is that better or worse than drinking just enough to have a brain damaged baby?
 

AnOminous

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Goddamn it, then why have I been practicing my spinkicks? You fucking nazi!

Anyway, here's a random thing I was considering that relates to this. Is it unethical or immoral or whatever for a woman who is within the window for legal abortion to drink alcohol? Because the thing she's damaging isn't a human, right? And we can't consider the future human, because if we do then we have to consider abortion murder of a future human. So why does our society harshly judge women who drink while pregnant, while saying they should be able to have an abortion if they want to without being judged?
Because an abortion terminates any burden to society at large. By comparison, a brain-damaged baby costs millions.

There have been lawsuits by children against their mother for drinking while pregnant.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europ...t/news-story/3af29c01316e9b22ff6a4ab2a9f1ac3f
 
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Because an abortion terminates any burden to society at large. By comparison, a brain-damaged baby costs millions.

There have been lawsuits by children against their mother for drinking while pregnant.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europ...t/news-story/3af29c01316e9b22ff6a4ab2a9f1ac3f
Well yeah, a nonexistent person cannot sue the person who prevented them from existing, otherwise typically death is considered a greater damage than brain damage (at least for the affected person).

Remember, pulling out a .45 and shooting a 2 year old in the head also terminates any burden to society. But that is illegal, and that's not controversial.
 

AnOminous

Really?
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Well yeah, a nonexistent person cannot sue the person who prevented them from existing, otherwise typically death is considered a greater damage than brain damage (at least for the affected person).
Right. Someone who isn't a person can't sue.

But if I set up a trap on my property and 20 years from now, an 18 year old who didn't exist at the time I did it is harmed by it, it is no defense that the person didn't exist when I did what caused the harm.
 

cactus

Cactus Juice Connoisseur
kiwifarms.net
Look, I’ve given my two cents and no amount of essay long paragraphs is gonna change my opinion. To me at least, who and how the kid was created is always gonna be more important than who carried the kid that wouldn’t even be there if it weren’t for who created it and how it was created. The father is one of the two main catalysts for that, so I think he should get some say in what happens to the kid, at least if he cares. If he doesn’t then the woman can do whatever she wants with the kid, including aborting it. The end.

At least we can have a somewhat civil discussion on here without anyone being labeled as a Nazi or being spinkicked in the head.
Your opinions are those of a nosy ass neighbor though and rating posts dumb because you disagree with someone else's opinions is just sad. And when men can carry the fetus, they can have a say, until then, hope your partner is kind enough to include you in her decision.

And may I add that I am pro-choice simply because it's not my business what people do in their free time so long as it does not affect me and I'd prefer women weren't dying from back alley abortions like before Roe v. Wade and if a woman wants to keep her unplanned pregnancy, good for her, I don't care. So no, I'm not making it my business what people want to do with their own bodies.
 

PorcupineTree

kiwifarms.net
If I recall correctly, men used to just punch their wives in the stomach if they didn't want the baby.

Feels morally easier on the public than providing access to safe procedures, I suppose. So long as everyone looks away and keeps their hands out of it, it's easier to pretend that abortion isn't a thing that has always happened.
 
And when men can carry the fetus, they can have a say, until then, hope your partner is kind enough to include you in her decision.
Ah ok, basic biology. So when women can physically dominate men, they can have political power. Sound good? Also, since only women get pregnant, why hire any women? When women stop needing to be absent from work for months they can get jobs. When women stop having different medical needs than men they can be soldiers. When women stop getting easily distracted in school they can learn math.

Should I continue? Maybe biotruths aren't the way to go here after all.
 

cactus

Cactus Juice Connoisseur
kiwifarms.net
Ah ok, basic biology. So when women can physically dominate men, they can have political power. Sound good? Also, since only women get pregnant, why hire any women? When women stop needing to be absent from work for months they can get jobs. When women stop having different medical needs than men they can be soldiers. When women stop getting easily distracted in school they can learn math.

Should I continue? Maybe biotruths aren't the way to go here after all.
While yes, women and men differ biologically, society has decided women should have equal opportunities as men and doing any of that is discrimination and illegal in some cases (ignoring 3rd or 4th, whichever one it is, wave feminism insanity). Are you saying only women suffer from being distracted all the time? Because that clearly isn't true as men can get just as distracted.

Your "argument" is fallacious, edgy schlock. Yeah, sucks that men can't get pregnant and decide to abort or keep their fetus, but it's a handful of things one gender doesn't really get a say in, and considering women got the short end of the stick in a lot of societies throughout history, it wouldn't kill men to let them have this thing.
 
Your "argument" is fallacious, edgy schlock. Yeah, sucks that men can't get pregnant and decide to abort or keep their fetus, but it's a handful of things one gender doesn't really get a say in, and considering women got the short end of the stick in a lot of societies throughout history, it wouldn't kill men to let them have this thing.
Well at least I have an argument, where you have "Look pregnancy just really sucks guys, lets be sexist in this one instance to make up for it" with a really dumb add on of "Men really owe women due to history"

And men actually CAN decide to abort their fetuses, but we as a society have decided biology doesn't determine human rights, so we punish them for doing so. Which was my point, one which you both agree with yet insist doesn't count in this one instance because of just how uniquely unpleasant pregnancy is.
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Wallachian Usurper/Fashion Impresario
kiwifarms.net
If one person has to distort themselves, rearrange their internal organs and irreversibly change shape over the course of nine months, it seems fair for them to have the biggest say in choosing whether it happens.
Exactly. I'm a guy. Worst I'll get hit with is child support. Which, from what I've seen, is pretty fucking simple to get away without paying. Sooooo, I have no qualms recusing myself from this debate. I certainly have an opinion as to the morality of it all. But I also have an opinion on what my opinion should be worth. So females, please feel free to work this one out amongst yourselves, and when done, just let me (or somebody relevant) know what it is.

Some have pointed out to me that they believe my position is a cop out. I also have an opinion about that.
 
Exactly. I'm a guy. Worst I'll get hit with is child support. Which, from what I've seen, is pretty fucking simple to get away without paying. Sooooo, I have no qualms recusing myself from this debate. I certainly have an opinion as to the morality of it all. But I also have an opinion on what my opinion should be worth. So females, please feel free to work this one out amongst yourselves, and when done, just let me (or somebody relevant) know what it is.

Some have pointed out to me that they believe my position is a cop out. I also have an opinion about that.
As a guy, you will die sooner because society believes you are more disposable than a woman. Men are expected to work themselves to death. So men should be able to decide all the rules of society since they have to die for it.

Is this a reasonable argument to you?
 
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AnOminous

Really?
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As a guy, you will die sooner because society believes you are more disposable than a woman.
Not really. Men just biologically die sooner. Or do you have some actual data to support your remarkable contention that if you just sit on your ass all day and do nothing you live longer?
 
Not really. Men just biologically die sooner. Or do you have some actual data to support your remarkable contention that if you just sit on your ass all day and do nothing you live longer?
Yeah, actually there is data, although I don't have a handy link, so from your perspective I suppose you could say I have no data. But there have been studies done looking at people living in sex-neutral environments, like monasteries and nunneries, and poorer countries where the women need to provide for the family just as much as the men, show they have a similar life expectancy. It's only when you get into cultures where the man's role is to be the provider that you see the skewing of the life expectancy.

Although just that data existing doesn't prove the assertion, it does support it. But my larger point is that it's not society's responsibility to even out "unfair" biology. If we're supposed to have equal rights, then biology should have nothing to do with it. Yes, pregnancy is much harder on women than men. This is a biological fact. But legally we supposedly have the same rights, so what does that biological fact matter?