Culture Alabama governor signs nation's most restrictive anti-abortion bill into law - "Unenforceable" bill designed to directly challenge Roe V. Wade

Krokodil Overdose

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kiwifarms.net
There will always be problems on both sides in a ruling like this. I know there are people who have too many abortions, or some women who do it once because having a kid is too expensive and they can't afford raising a child, etc. It's not an easy topic. This ruling probably will do more damage than good.
Maybe these things would be less contentious and tied up in procedural fuckery if they were up to voters instead of arbitrary decrees from various High Druid Councils. Crazy idea, I know, but it just might work.
 

ButterBar

kiwifarms.net
If someone falls into a coma and the family decides to pull the plug its not murder. If someone smothers them in their sleep then its murder. I know nuance can be hard for some people but you're making this more complex than it has to be simply to prolong the argument. The mother doesn't decide whether its human or not. Its a human fetus. If she aborts it its still human. That was never the point, and I suspect you know that.

At this point you're just playing rhetorical tic-tac-toe and its getting kind of stale. In the end the courts will smack this down and conservatives will try again in another 20 or so years because the only policy positions right-wingers can come up with is "Civil rights bad".
Youve been saying its barely human this whole fucking time. And yes, if I get knocked out and am going to wake up soon and recover from the coma its fucking murder. Its only not murder if I'm brain dead, where I have no viability to continue living unlike a fetus. You on the other hand have decided its murder only if the woman wants the baby. I dont see how being wanted means you get to be treated with human rights and being unwanted means you don't. Yeah, civil rights bad. See Im not accusing you of hating civil rights, what we have is different perspective on rights. I want civil rights to start before someone is born, not after. You dont, you believe they dont get rights until after and until then they are subject to the whims of the mother, and that she has a right to choose whether it lives or dies.
 

Pokemonquistador

kiwifarms.net
It's disgusting how abortion has basically been used as a tennis ball to drum up political support for one party or another. The actual abortion rate has been declining in recent years, and that's because women have been getting greater access to long acting, low maintenance methods of birth control. A program providing free birth control to teens in St. Louis reduced the abortion rate by 62 percent (that is, if you don't count the use of an IUD an abortion in and of itself . )

https://www.livescience.com/23726-birth-control-abortion-rate.html

I'm kind of surprised the Black Community hasn't been more vocal in denouncing abortion. 35 percent of aborted babies are black, and there would be 16 million more black people alive in America today if abortion had never been a thing. (But perhaps abortion advocates consider that a feature, not a bug?) If Republicans are so racist, why are they so dead set on ending a practice which culls poor future-Democrat-voting black people? Nothing about this is rational in any way.

As mentioned before, giving out free, low-maintenance BC is probably the most efficient way to prevent abortions from occurring. But I would think an equally effective way would be to show potential teen mothers clips like this:


The idea that their womb might bring forth a blighted creature like Bohepans should be enough to turn all girls off the very idea of unprotected sex.
 

samuraicrack

INTERIOR CROCODILE ALLIGATOR
kiwifarms.net
I will say that throughout all of this entire debate it’s hysterical to constantly hear people saying that abortion is a basic right for women and that Alabama is an uninhabitable shithole now when the US as a whole has no decent universal health care plan yet everyone can get along just fine living in it for the most part.
 
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Ashy the Angel

World's Second Worst Leftist
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Im against all. I was pointing out the flaw in your logic in that no, a fetus doesnt actually need the mother as far in as you claim. You should logically be for limiting abortion past 20 weeks or so, and yet you arent. So to you needing the mother to live actually doesn't matter at all.
This is a point that was actually clarified in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. A fetus is defined as being legally viable 23 to 24 weeks after conception. Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/505/833
viability.png


So regardless of your personal feelings you are legally incorrect when saying a fetus is viable before then. My claim is backed by the joint decision of the Supreme Court. Its based in fact. Your opinion is not. My personal feelings on abortion as it relates to the mother's life is irrelevant, and doesn't disprove this. But thank you for making me argue the point so hard I had to literally find legal grounding for it.

Except that doesnt matter to you either. You said its murder if the mother wants it. Murder only applies to human beings. Therefore, the fetus is a human when the mother wants it and isnt when she doesnt. Is that correct?
Actually this question made me do some digging to see if its considered murder if a someone kills an unborn baby. Its actually legally not. Its considered homicide of an unborn child. Source:

And there's actually a legal difference between murder and homicide. You learn something new everyday.

So no matter how you slice this argument arbortion isn't murder, and the intentional killing of an unborn child isn't even considered murder even if the woman doesn't want it.
Of course it can be made on behalf of the mother. If she drowns it after its on her behalf.
That's an argument that would never fly in court in a million years. The child poses no threat after birth. Absolutely zero.
So health actually doesnt matter here either, it doesnt determine why abortion should be legal. It doesnt provide a logical basis either, it provides a purely emotional one, as does rape and incest. So if health actually isnt relevant, why cant she drown a baby? Why is that now murder?
It does provide a logical basis. Just because I am okay with abortion for non-medical reasons doesn't invalidate medically necessary abortions, which I'm not even sure you're against. And again, once the baby has been born its murder. This is extremely simple. I'm going to keep saying the same thing no matter what angle you try to take, my friend.
None of which affect the fetus itself in making actual qualitative differences between it being in the womb and outside the womb. Its not any less a human anymore than if I were to need life support for 9 months I would cease to be human. It doesnt change any quality about intelligence, age, genetic code, worth, etc.
Yet again you're removing the mother entirely from the equation. In the same way an argument can be made for a brain-damaged person to be medically euthanized if they cannot lead a normal life, so here can a non-viable (for purposes of this argument) be seen as justified in aborting. You say you "wouldn't cease to be human" if you were on life support but if there was no chance of resuscitation it would be well within your family's rights to pull the plug. At that point you have no say. Likewise, the fetus has no say.
I dont like the welfare state much at all but if that was the trade I would very much take all of that, and there is welfare for having a child with an absent father. Theres child support and state and federal welfare for pretty much everything except being an adult because I dont quite get your point there.
I can at least applaud you on being logically consistent. My point was that if its a human life why does child support only start after its born. Why not sooner? There's "no difference" between it being in the womb and being outside of it right?
Of course I do because I dont like tiny male and female bodies being flushed down a garbage disposal. I dont like living in a place where despite all pleading and all effort to offer a solution and to raise a child a father can still have their baby killed without being able to do anything about it.
I'm sorry m8. Facts don't care about your feelings.
 

samuraicrack

INTERIOR CROCODILE ALLIGATOR
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Sprig of Parsley

kiwifarms.net
Haven't people always called Alabama a shithole?
It's saddled with crushing poverty to the point of people lacking proper septic or sewer in places, it's haunted by the ghosts of racists past and a lot of this is because some fucking assholes thought the Reconstruction era was the perfect opportunity to finish breaking the South just so those uppity motherfucking Rebs didn't get any bright ideas about where they stood in the Union and they've basically never recovered completely from that.
 

Oscar Wildean

OK Corral
kiwifarms.net
It's saddled with crushing poverty to the point of people lacking proper septic or sewer in places, it's haunted by the ghosts of racists past and a lot of this is because some fucking assholes thought the Reconstruction era was the perfect opportunity to finish breaking the South just so those uppity motherfucking Rebs didn't get any bright ideas about where they stood in the Union and they've basically never recovered completely from that.
A lot of the southern states have issues like that, don't they? Like the poor people in the Appalachians.
 

Sprig of Parsley

kiwifarms.net
A lot of the southern states have issues like that, don't they? Like the poor people in the Appalachians.
Issues tend to vary from region to region but pretty much every state that seceded got a thorough fucking by the carpetbaggers post-bellum. One of the reasons the South tends to have such a distinct identity apart from the other regions of the USA is that they never felt even close to "welcome" when they rejoined and as a consequence they clung to a distinct identity that granted them some sort of pride and/or solace rather than reintegrate fully and become more cosmopolitan.
 

ButterBar

kiwifarms.net
This is a point that was actually clarified in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. A fetus is defined as being legally viable 23 to 24 weeks after conception. Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/505/833
viability.png


So regardless of your personal feelings you are legally incorrect when saying a fetus is viable before then. My claim is backed by the joint decision of the Supreme Court. Its based in fact. Your opinion is not. My personal feelings on abortion as it relates to the mother's life is irrelevant, and doesn't disprove this. But thank you for making me argue the point so hard I had to literally find legal grounding for it.
Legal isnt all that relevant here when discussing what laws should be. I'm opposed to current laws, it isn't valid to just repeat to me what Im against. Im medically correct.


Viability is getting earlier and earlier.

Actually this question made me do some digging to see if its considered murder if a someone kills an unborn baby. Its actually legally not. Its considered homicide of an unborn child. Source:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/illinois/articles/2019-04-12/man-convicted-of-murder-homicide-of-an-unborn-child
And there's actually a legal difference between murder and homicide. You learn something new everyday.
Homicide in that sense for all intents and purposes is murder. Homicide means killing someone else, which can be justified, murder is criminal and has intent. That article has two murders that are also two homicides. Even then your point isnt relevant. The point is that its a trial for two separate killings, not a woman and her spleen being punctured and killed.

That's an argument that would never fly in court in a million years. The child poses no threat after birth. Absolutely zero.
Court doesnt matter. We are talking about what the law should be and your logic. Threat to the mother doesnt matter either. As you said you are for abortion even if there was zero threat. If you allow abortion with zero threat to the mother why not allow a baby murder?

It does provide a logical basis. Just because I am okay with abortion for non-medical reasons doesn't invalidate medically necessary abortions, which I'm not even sure you're against.
Im for those.

And again, once the baby has been born its murder. This is extremely simple. I'm going to keep saying the same thing no matter what angle you try to take, my friend.
Im asking you to explain why you think that should be murder and the other shouldnt. Justify your views.

Yet again you're removing the mother entirely from the equation. In the same way an argument can be made for a brain-damaged person to be medically euthanized if they cannot lead a normal life, so here can a non-viable (for purposes of this argument) be seen as justified in aborting. You say you "wouldn't cease to be human" if you were on life support but if there was no chance of resuscitation it would be well within your family's rights to pull the plug. At that point you have no say. Likewise, the fetus has no say.
Because I have no viability there, which a fetus does.
 
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Oscar Wildean

OK Corral
kiwifarms.net
Issues tend to vary from region to region but pretty much every state that seceded got a thorough fucking by the carpetbaggers post-bellum. One of the reasons the South tends to have such a distinct identity apart from the other regions of the USA is that they never felt even close to "welcome" when they rejoined and as a consequence they clung to a distinct identity that granted them some sort of pride and/or solace rather than reintegrate fully and become more cosmopolitan.
Since this thread is about abortions, I've noticed while going through southern states that a lot of towns in southern areas have the billboards with fetuses on them. And I only see them or in states that are extremely religious, like Utah. You go to more secular areas, those aren't around.
 

Sprig of Parsley

kiwifarms.net
Since this thread is about abortions, I've noticed while going through southern states that a lot of towns in southern areas have the billboards with fetuses on them. And I only see them or in states that are extremely religious, like Utah. You go to more secular areas, those aren't around.
That tends to be one of the more common dividing lines, yes. That being said, I've seen those kinds of billboards in MN within the limits of large and somewhat cosmopolitan cities. I've also seen them in Western WA, which is the bluer side of the state. I remember seeing them in numerous places in CA, both rural and otherwise. I wouldn't call it being a religious issue OVERLY reductive but it can be a trap to address it solely on that line alone.
 
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