American (Ethnic?) Nationalism -

[Joan Nyan]

Splitting from the election thread

May I ask why you consider people who just became citizens because the government said that they were but didn't contribute to building American society should be able to call themselves Americans in the same way that French people call themselves French? Not saying that you are necessarily wrong but isn't there something more to being an American than just having documents from the government and participating in American society

A core tenant of American culture, the American dream as it's called, has always been the idea that anyone can achieve a good living and social standing through their own hard work and talent, regardless of their background. Regardless of the truth of this statement, in the past or presently, belief in this ideal has long been central to being an American. A recent, legal immigrant who believes this and works towards it is more of an American than someone descended from the original colonists but does not believe in the American dream. The type of ethnic nationalism you describe would require an abandonment of the American dream, and I honestly don't know how to define American society and culture without it.

This is of course what makes America exceptional and different from other countries, because anybody could hypothetically become an American.

And yes, Trump supports legal immigrants and the American dream and legal immigrants should support him too.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

The type of ethnic nationalism you describe would require an abandonment of the American dream, and I honestly don't know how to define American society and culture without it.

I don't really think it actually would. What it would do instead is rather make it so that only someone who has actually achieved the American dream would be an American and immigrants who fail to achieve it would not be so. I would consider being a normal American when America achieved superpower status could be seen as a sort of collective achievement of the American dream and as a result Americans at that time would be able to achieve it just from having contributed to the war effort but I think that outside of such circumstances an American needs to achieve the American dream to be a real ethnic American.

 

[Joan Nyan]

I would consider being a normal American when America achieved superpower status could be seen as a sort of collective achievement of the American dream and as a result Americans at that time would be able to achieve it just from having contributed to the war effort

Individualism has also always (perhaps ironically) been a part of American patriotism so I don't think it makes sense to confer any status upon a whole group like that. You also stated earlier that those descended Americans from the 40s should be considered Americans today which is also not how America is supposed to work. Sure, small loans of a million dollars happen but the belief is that one's background should neither hurt nor help you and you achieve success or failure solely through your own merits.

outside of such circumstances an American needs to achieve the American dream to be a real ethnic American.

That's basically just saying "poor people can't be real Americans" which is just a strange statement and not one I think most Americans would agree with.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Sounds like America is the country of resignation. You cannot better yourself in America because regardless of what you do you will just be overrun by immigrants and not be able to create a better life for your children. America is pretty much communist in ideology despite not being so in practice

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Good thing we don't decide these things arbitrarily then. If you're shitposting for fun, it has gotten old. If you seriosuly believe what you are saying, please justify them with logical points instead of Autistic/Stormfront word salads. You've derailed the thread for what, 4 pages now?

I think that having immigration to a state is undemocratic in its contemporary form because since immigrants are allowed to vote it is the legislature changing who votes them in which can be seen as a violation of democratic principles. I see the social contract as an agreement between individuals as opposed to an agreement between an individual and the state so there needs to be an ability for the people to reject a new applicant for citizenship because otherwise it would be the equivalent of someone giving you a chocolate bar on the side of the street and then demanding you pay them for it. I think for this purpose it has to be unanimous agreement on who is and is not a citizen and the government must consistently only serve the interests of citizens and nobody else because the government is simply an agreement between citizens

I do not believe that there necessarily is a well defined group in the USA to make it democratic anyways but I am trying to go with the closest existing thing to this which would be the population of the USA that was involved in WWII.

I acknowledge that this type of nation-state is falling out of popularity or realism in the modern globalized world but I see Trump as an anti globalization activist and I do not believe that there can be any democracy without such a state

I did not intend to derail the thread so badly and I think it was a good decision to remove the derailment although I think it should have been put in this thread instead.

 

[DZ 305]

I think that having immigration to a state is undemocratic in its contemporary form because since immigrants are allowed to vote it is the legislature changing who votes them in which can be seen as a violation of democratic principles. I see the social contract as an agreement between individuals as opposed to an agreement between an individual and the state so there needs to be an ability for the people to reject a new applicant for citizenship because otherwise it would be the equivalent of someone giving you a chocolate bar on the side of the street and then demanding you pay them for it. I think for this purpose it has to be unanimous agreement on who is and is not a citizen and the government must consistently only serve the interests of citizens and nobody else because the government is simply an agreement between citizens

I do not believe that there necessarily is a well defined group in the USA to make it democratic anyways but I am trying to go with the closest existing thing to this which would be the population of the USA that was involved in WWII.

I acknowledge that this type of nation-state is falling out of popularity or realism in the modern globalized world but I see Trump as an anti globalization activist and I do not believe that there can be any democracy without such a state

I did not intend to derail the thread so badly and I think it was a good decision to remove the derailment although I think it should have been put in this thread instead.

Immigrants only affect policy by voting, a right reserved for citizens. It takes a good few years to naturalize an individual.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Immigrants only affect policy by voting, a right reserved for citizens. It takes a good few years to naturalize an individual.

That is not the point. Having a period a few years long where they cannot vote doesn't eliminate any of the problems I was talking about. The legislature is still affecting the population who elect them even if it doesn't necessarily have an immediate effect for the next election
EDIT:

Immigrants only affect policy by voting, a right reserved for citizens. It takes a good few years to naturalize an individual.

http://immigration-law.freeadvice.com/immigration-law/citizenship/us_citizen_filing_length.htm
according to this it takes 5 months to 2 years. This is not even the 4 years between presidential elections and is at most the 2 years between congressional elections

 

[Derbydollar]

Americanism is more of a spirit than a intrinsic status. There are no born 'Americans' in that respect, they choose to pursue life, liberty, happiness, success, freedom- Whatever they see in America on their own.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who would like to legally join us here is welcome and I encourage them to. I don't care about ethnic heritage, and I would argue that it's inherently unamerican to do so.

I.E.- Even the newest immigrants who are decent and looking for liberty or the like are just as 'American' as I am.

 

[*Asterisk*]

On a totally unrelated note, I'm building a superweapon. The first step involves transforming an ordinary pot of honey into concentrated autism. I don't remember the second step, but I know right now I have the power to fray the neurons of every human being in a 3,000 mile radius.

Now where the fuck is my one-hundred billion dollars ! ? !

 

[CWCchange]

Nationally-speaking, anybody can be anything if whichever country in question allows for citizenship.

The concept of American exceptionalism ethnically-speaking is derived from Greco-Roman society, whereas under a unified identity, cultural diffusion from immigration (and invasion) make the distinctive regions of Europe today. From an American perspective places like New England and the Southern United States contrast like Scandinavia and the Mediterranean, albeit share the same connection.

 

[Oglooger]

I've had to deal with idiots who think that just because I'm a spic I'm not an American and I have to be deported.
it doesn't matter if I support american ideals, was born in America, grew up with American culture, celebrated American holidays and had english as a first language. to them I'm just a filthy spic and should be kicked to Mexico.
They're idiots who forgot the American way and America is too diverse for having one single race and language.

 

[Lugal]

Sounds like America is the country of resignation. You cannot better yourself in America because regardless of what you do you will just be overrun by immigrants and not be able to create a better life for your children. America is pretty much communist in ideology despite not being so in practice

This whole post is just Poe's Law in action.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

Maybe I am the odd one out, but I don't see America as fundamentally different from most of European civilization. It goes in some interesting directions, did some great things, and came up with a good idea or two, but at the end of the day the functional difference between it and say, Great Britain, boils down to a monarchy before you account for circumstance and environment (in other words, things outside of American control and beyond the ability of American Exceptionalism to really affect.) It just happens to be powerful so people perceive it as exceptional, in the way that Haiti happens to be very poor and weak and so people forget how truly unusual it is. When things even out in terms of power dynamics and one day, almost certainly outside of our lifetimes, America does begin to permanently decline and other countries in the western hemisphere catch up, we would see the United States and Americans as the inheritors of a great military and cultural legacy, comparable to, but not exceeding that of France, China, Great Britain, and so on.

As far as "anyone becoming an American" that just isn't true anymore. America has existed long enough for ethnic nationalism to seep in, a process with is inevitable and irreversible. Some people will now be inherently more American than others by virtue of birth in the eyes of the majority. It is, I am sorry to say for those who still believe in it, no longer the young, doe-eyed, daughter of liberty. It is an aging European power. It has a hereditary aristocracy in a very real sense. It has entrenched elites. Cultures which have existed for hundreds of years. It will become very much like the kingdom it seceded from, if only in spirit, in say maybe another quarter millennia.

 

[Steve Mayers]

I've had to deal with idiots who think that just because I'm a spic I'm not an American and I have to be deported.
it doesn't matter if I support american ideals, was born in America, grew up with American culture, celebrated American holidays and had english as a first language. to them I'm just a filthy spic and should be kicked to Mexico.
They're idiots who forgot the American way and America is too diverse for having one single race and language.

There's always been anti-immigrant bullshit in America. It's just the target for what immigrants are "evil" has moved over the years. In the 1850's there was a movement called the "Know-Nothing Party" who thought that Catholic immigrants coming over to the US would mean that The Pope would take over America.

 

[Joan Nyan]

As far as "anyone becoming an American" that just isn't true anymore.

I agree with that to some degree, but not for the same reasons. Anyone still could become an American, but most immigrants don't want to. They want to be Mexican-Americans or Chinese-Americans or some other variety of Hyphenated-Americans. A lot of people want America to be a "multicultural society" which I would consider an oxymoron because if there's not one unified culture, it's not a society it's just a bunch of people living near each other. And while there's plenty of people to blame for multiculturalism, at the end of the day, immigrants can become Americans but too many choose not to be.

 

[Steve Mayers]

I agree with that to some degree, but not for the same reasons. Anyone still could become an American, but most immigrants don't want to. They want to be Mexican-Americans or Chinese-Americans or some other variety of Hyphenated-Americans. A lot of people want America to be a "multicultural society" which I would consider an oxymoron because if there's not one unified culture, it's not a society it's just a bunch of people living near each other. And while there's plenty of people to blame for multiculturalism, at the end of the day, immigrants can become Americans but too many choose not to be.

Assimilation doesn't happen overnight. It's a generational change more than anything else. Children of immigrants and those who immigrated to America at a young age are more culturally American than someone who was raised in another culture and then moved to American in adulthood. This has happened throughout the history of America. Germans didn't integrate into American culture right away it was a generational change. As was the Italians, Irish and various other groups.

 

[AnOminous]

I agree with that to some degree, but not for the same reasons. Anyone still could become an American, but most immigrants don't want to. They want to be Mexican-Americans or Chinese-Americans or some other variety of Hyphenated-Americans. A lot of people want America to be a "multicultural society" which I would consider an oxymoron because if there's not one unified culture, it's not a society it's just a bunch of people living near each other. And while there's plenty of people to blame for multiculturalism, at the end of the day, immigrants can become Americans but too many choose not to be.

I don't care if they do. Where I would draw the line is when rather than just having a cultural identity, they have an ideology that is directly inimical to our way of life. That would be Islamism.

 

[Joan Nyan]

Assimilation doesn't happen overnight. It's a generational change more than anything else. Children of immigrants and those who immigrated to America at a young age are more culturally American than someone who was raised in another culture and then moved to American in adulthood. This has happened throughout the history of America. Germans didn't integrate into American culture right away it was a generational change. As was the Italians, Irish and various other groups.

But the difference between then and now is that immigrants in the past at least wanted to assimilate to some degree, and they wanted their children to assimilate too. Now immigrants want their children to be proud of their heritage and speak their parents' language.

 

[Steve Mayers]

But the difference between then and now is that immigrants in the past at least wanted to assimilate to some degree, and they wanted their children to assimilate too. Now immigrants want their children to be proud of their heritage and speak their parents' language.

And what's wrong with being proud of your heritage? The Italians were the same way. And once again immigrants in the 19th century did have their own cultures inside American. German immigrants had German language newspapers, and German language schools.

 

[Online Violence]

You can't compare the forced assimilation of the 19th and early 20th century in the US to the multicultural salad bowl of today. They don't even call it a melting pot anymore, for very good reasons. Do you have any fucking idea how many institutional and cultural mechanisms were devoted to eradicating as much as possible of the previous culture of immigrants to forcely integrate them into anglo-american language and world view? Mechanisms that would be considered opressive totalitarian fascist racism as a matter of course by modern perspectives.

I have no idea where people get the impression that the end-result of millions of Europeans migrating to the US and the melting pot that gave rise to modern-american culture was achieved by some sort of gentle, unobtrusive, multigenerational tolerance, and not a concerted attempt at integration on every level by the powers that be. It certainly cannot be compared to the modern attempts in the US and elsewhere, where "integration" is a dirty word ladden with racist, colonialist overtones, and thus avoided in every way.