Lolcow Andrew Peter Carlson / Anaiah Carlson / Tamarlover / Xtamarlover - Jewish/Christian Cult Leader, Stalker, Ugly af, dogfucker, mayor of spitsville

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H2O changing forms is different than taking H2O and separating them into H H O.
Chemical reactions are natural. Leave a piece of iron outside for a while and see what happens - that's a chemical reaction (oxidation to be precise).

Both are chemical changes, but one is a natural change and one is unnatural.
No, a substance changing states of matter is not a chemical change, it's a physical change (because the substance remains the same - it's still H2O).

I was abused when I got dumped and thrown out as if I was trash.
Well, maybe you were acting like trash so they treated you like trash.
 

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Except my socalled "abuse" is simply trying to talk to someone. So basically Im equivalent to a telemarketer. Hardly call that abuse. If thats abuse, then dumping someone is abuse as well. But both arent truly abuse. But if one wants to throw the abuse label around so frivolously then ok I guess I was abused when I got dumped and thrown out as if I was trash.
Please show me exactly where I did say you were abusing someone, with at least three peer-reviewed articles in relevant journals as evidence. Just kidding, wasn't my point to accuse you of anything, merely pointing out that as a regular joe sixpack, your logic seems bit off there.
It's good that you agree things aren't black and white, at least. But personally, I'd still hold an position that you're free to decide who you do associate with and include your life. If someone says you're out, you're out. Sometimes "simply trying to talk to someone" in itself can be hurtful action, especially after someone makes it clear they don't want to have anything to do with you. Yes, getting dumped hurts. Yes, being told to not to contact someone sucks. And getting accused and/or prosecuted for stalking is a drag. The thing is though, being in contact after being told to hit the road can be seen annoying at least, or unhinged and antagonistic at the worst; even if you'd be an alien who doesn't get human relationship dynnamics, at least some point you might take the path of least resistance, I'd guess. No need to be 21th century Don Quixote.
 

Anaiah Carlson

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Chemical reactions are natural. Leave a piece of iron outside for a while and see what happens - that's a chemical reaction (oxidation to be precise).


No, a substance changing states of matter is not a chemical change, it's a physical change (because the substance remains the same - it's still H2O).


Well, maybe you were acting like trash so they treated you like trash.
Regardless of the exact correct terminology used which I may be ignorant of, there is a clear difference in isolating chemicals and recombining them vs a change of chemical occurring as a byproduct.

Take any food for example. Its one thing if there is some chemical naturally produced as a byproduct of whatever it is you are doing to it like cooking it, etc, but if you literally add the chemical into the food from an outside source, that's an example of what I would call unnatural change because it wasn't a mere byproduct but was a complete change being inserted from an outside source. And again, terms like "natural" and "unnatural" which I used, are of course subjective because everything that is observable is technically something that occurred "in nature" but I use the term natural vs unnatural to refer to processes which involve minimal changes as merely byproducts vs complex changes made using outside sources.

Someone having pain (as it should be) during childbirth is natural. Giving someone anesthesia or an epidural is unnatural. Because its a foreign substance interjected in a way contrary to its basic form. So removing substances from something is different than inserting. Removing/byproduct is natural. Inserting foreign elements into the very composition of something is unnatural. That's how I would best distinguish between the two.

Please show me exactly where I did say you were abusing someone, with at least three peer-reviewed articles in relevant journals as evidence. Just kidding, wasn't my point to accuse you of anything, merely pointing out that as a regular joe sixpack, your logic seems bit off there.
It's good that you agree things aren't black and white, at least. But personally, I'd still hold an position that you're free to decide who you do associate with and include your life. If someone says you're out, you're out. Sometimes "simply trying to talk to someone" in itself can be hurtful action, especially after someone makes it clear they don't want to have anything to do with you. Yes, getting dumped hurts. Yes, being told to not to contact someone sucks. And getting accused and/or prosecuted for stalking is a drag. The thing is though, being in contact after being told to hit the road can be seen annoying at least, or unhinged and antagonistic at the worst; even if you'd be an alien who doesn't get human relationship dynnamics, at least some point you might take the path of least resistance, I'd guess. No need to be 21th century Don Quixote.
I think its fair to say that both sides, the one who dumped, and the one who doesn't want to lose the friendship, don't want to hurt or cause the other person pain but is looking out for their own interests. Maybe both me and her are in the wrong for what we did/do, but even if I am in the wrong, I think what she is doing to me causes far more pain and harm than the reverse. Because for her, I simply want to be her friend and she doesn't want that so its a mere annoyance. Whereas for me, she doesn't want to be my friend, and that is such a strong stance to take, it basically equates to pure hatred and malice towards the person. To me she is committing an act of unwanted hate (I want her to stop hating me). To her, I am committing an act of unwanted love (she wants me to stop wanting to be friends with her). Even if both are harmful to the other person and wrong, hating someone merely for wanting to be your friend is worse than loving someone that doesn't want you to love them.
 

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Please show me exactly where I did say you were abusing someone...
I assume he was responding to me, at least unintentionally, since I recently recently referred to him as an abuser. He somewhat regularly doesn't respond to me, doesn't tag me in a response, or only obliquely responds to my post when addressing someone else. Andrew is an abuser because he knowingly and purposefully causes harm to people he professes to care about who do not want contact with him. Myself and other have recounted his physical, emotional, and verbal abuses numerous times.

He cannot deny these claims because you can just quote his posts. What he will do is dispute labels and deflect by calling his victims weak, explain that his abuse wasn't that bad, or point to worse abuse that occurs in the world. I will admit that he is far from the most abusive boyfriend out there and that his actions, that we know of, have not escalated to the point that he should be imprisoned. That is of course unless he has been violating his current PO and in that case I hope his ex pursues justice through any and all legal means.

What Andrew's history shows is a pattern obsessive, narcissistic, and delusional behavior that taken as a whole is disturbing. Ex-girlfriends believe so. Law enforcement believe so. The justice systems believes so. It is not a singular authority's judgement that convinced me. His own words on this forum have on heightened the level of disturbance. He has spoken to the joy he got from his abuse or how he wants to relive it, even perpetuate it in the future. I would be concerned that Andrew was more of a physical threat if he wasn't such a sniveling coward. Though, I do believe his desire for domination would cause him to escalate to greater levels of violence rapidly should he ever develop a taste for it.

I am not a psychological or criminal justice authority, but there are records of Andrew's actions along with his own words that cause me to label him an abuser.
 

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Regardless of the exact correct terminology used which I may be ignorant of, there is a clear difference in isolating chemicals and recombining them vs a change of chemical occurring as a byproduct.
The only difference between something being intentional change or a byproduct is in human perception, chemistry and physics don't care.

Take any food for example. Its one thing if there is some chemical naturally produced as a byproduct of whatever it is you are doing to it like cooking it, etc, but if you literally add the chemical into the food from an outside source, that's an example of what I would call unnatural change because it wasn't a mere byproduct but was a complete change being inserted from an outside source. And again, terms like "natural" and "unnatural" which I used, are of course subjective because everything that is observable is technically something that occurred "in nature" but I use the term natural vs unnatural to refer to processes which involve minimal changes as merely byproducts vs complex changes made using outside sources.
Everything in the world is made of chemical substances: you, me, soil you walk on, clouds in the sky, your food, keyboard you type on, everything.
Take digestion for example. It's a complex chemical reaction induced by foreign element (food) therefore by your definition - unnatural.
 

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I think its fair to say that both sides, the one who dumped, and the one who doesn't want to lose the friendship, don't want to hurt or cause the other person pain but is looking out for their own interests. Maybe both me and her are in the wrong for what we did/do, but even if I am in the wrong, I think what she is doing to me causes far more pain and harm than the reverse. Because for her, I simply want to be her friend and she doesn't want that so its a mere annoyance. Whereas for me, she doesn't want to be my friend, and that is such a strong stance to take, it basically equates to pure hatred and malice towards the person. To me she is committing an act of unwanted hate (I want her to stop hating me). To her, I am committing an act of unwanted love (she wants me to stop wanting to be friends with her). Even if both are harmful to the other person and wrong, hating someone merely for wanting to be your friend is worse than loving someone that doesn't want you to love them.
There are literal billions of people in the world that you, I, and your ex do not want to be friends with and do not wish malice on. People who's existence we've never considered. Claiming someone not wanting someone else's friendship as act of malice is ridiculous. Your perception of your ex's actions are clouded by your narc injury.
 

Anaiah Carlson

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The only difference between something being intentional change or a byproduct is in human perception, chemistry and physics don't care.


Everything in the world is made of chemical substances: you, me, soil you walk on, clouds in the sky, your food, keyboard you type on, everything.
Take digestion for example. It's a complex chemical reaction induced by foreign element (food) therefore by your definition - unnatural.
Except digestion is a process that is natural. An example of an unnatural change is surgery to make your stomach smaller or to give you a second stomach. Another example would be an organ donation giving you someone else's stomach. The food coming in normally is natural but trying to inject food into your body through an IV would be unnatural.

The production of the keyboard is unnatural because of the material it is made from. I distinguish between the use of something and the production of something. The keyboard doesn't cause the unnatural to occur, but rather the unnatural thing that happened was the keyboard was produced.

I'd say killing animals and preparing meat is natural whereas growing meat cells in a lab to mass produce meat would be unnatural. Cutting down trees and using wood to build stuff is natural. taking a plant cell and cloning the plant to mass reproduce to create lots of trees to be used for wood is unnatural.

Nuclear fusion caused by its normal process is natural. If humans initiate the process though its unnatural.


"Artificiality (the state of being artificial or human-made) is the state of being the product of intentional human manufacture, rather than occurring naturally through processes not involving or requiring human activity."

Eating food isn't artificial, because it isn't human-made. Similarly, having sex and producing through such natural methods is not artificial, because the process of reproduction isn't human-made. Various medical interventions assisting or producing a reproductive effect are artificial.

Etc
 

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Except digestion is a process that is natural. An example of an unnatural change is surgery to make your stomach smaller or to give you a second stomach. Another example would be an organ donation giving you someone else's stomach. The food coming in normally is natural but trying to inject food into your body through an IV would be unnatural.

The production of the keyboard is unnatural because of the material it is made from. I distinguish between the use of something and the production of something. The keyboard doesn't cause the unnatural to occur, but rather the unnatural thing that happened was the keyboard was produced.

I'd say killing animals and preparing meat is natural whereas growing meat cells in a lab to mass produce meat would be unnatural. Cutting down trees and using wood to build stuff is natural. taking a plant cell and cloning the plant to mass reproduce to create lots of trees to be used for wood is unnatural.

Nuclear fusion caused by its normal process is natural. If humans initiate the process though its unnatural.


"Artificiality (the state of being artificial or human-made) is the state of being the product of intentional human manufacture, rather than occurring naturally through processes not involving or requiring human activity."

Eating food isn't artificial, because it isn't human-made. Similarly, having sex and producing through such natural methods is not artificial, because the process of reproduction isn't human-made. Various medical interventions assisting or producing a reproductive effect are artificial.

Etc
We started with chemical reactions. You moved to biology and medicine and changed your narration from "some chemical reactions are natural and some are not" to "man-made things are man-made and naturally occurring phenomena are naturally occurring".
 

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literally add the chemical into the food from an outside source, that's an example of what I would call unnatural change because it wasn't a mere byproduct but was a complete change being inserted from an outside source.
So thou shall not add salt, or water for instance?
Eating food isn't artificial, because it isn't human-made
I'd like to argue that yes, humans have literally domesticated, selectively bred and in some cases, added hormones or genes to the mix for their indgredients. In addition of you know, changing the physical properties of said food, for instance heating it until protein chains change. Or breaking down the seeds to make flour, then feed sugars to yeast to make dough that rises, and heating it until it goes again chemical maillard reaction before we eat it.
To me she is committing an act of unwanted hate (I want her to stop hating me)
Elaborate. It really can't be active hate, since you're not part of their lives anymore. And what about your prior acts? There might be you know, actual reason someone might not want to associate with them, since aside from hormonal teenagers and some lolcows, drama and feelings like that just doesn't come from thin air. I'm not saying anybody here is right or wrong, but if you'd really appreciated them and their wishes, you'd leave them be, no matter who they were.
To her, I am committing an act of unwanted love (she wants me to stop wanting to be friends with her).
Case in point. If you'd truly love them, you'd be willing to part your ways with them should they feel like they'd need it. Not possessively to keep them tied to you. Honestly, that's just few degrees away from "bitch made me to do it" you occasionally hear from perpentrators of domestic violence.
 
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I'd like to argue that yes, humans have literally domesticated, selectively bred and in some cases, added hormones or genes to the mix for their indgrediots. In addition of you know, changing the physical properties of said food, for instance heating it until protein chains change. Or breaking down the seeds to make flour, then feed sugars to yeast to make dough that rises, and heating it until it goes again chemical maillard reaction before we eat it.
I can assure you that I get my creme brulee by tapping creme trees and the natural brulee action is due to oxidation when the creme is exposed to the atmosphere for a prolonged period of time. !00% natural with no intervention by man or tool.
 

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I think its fair to say that both sides, the one who dumped, and the one who doesn't want to lose the friendship, don't want to hurt or cause the other person pain but is looking out for their own interests. Maybe both me and her are in the wrong for what we did/do, but even if I am in the wrong, I think what she is doing to me causes far more pain and harm than the reverse. Because for her, I simply want to be her friend and she doesn't want that so its a mere annoyance. Whereas for me, she doesn't want to be my friend, and that is such a strong stance to take, it basically equates to pure hatred and malice towards the person. To me she is committing an act of unwanted hate (I want her to stop hating me). To her, I am committing an act of unwanted love (she wants me to stop wanting to be friends with her). Even if both are harmful to the other person and wrong, hating someone merely for wanting to be your friend is worse than loving someone that doesn't want you to love them.
The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy, sweetie....
 

Anaiah Carlson

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The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy, sweetie....
"Apathy is a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern about something. It is a state of indifference"

If you were apathetic, it wouldn't matter if someone was trying to talk to you. You'd be indifferent about it. You'd ignore it and not care about it. Instead, her actions signify, concern about actively avoiding me, with strong ill/mal feeling towards me talking with her. Key: lack of CONCERN. You dont a PO for someone you arent concerned about.
 

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"Apathy is a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern about something. It is a state of indifference"

If you were apathetic, it wouldn't matter if someone was trying to talk to you. You'd be indifferent about it. You'd ignore it and not care about it. Instead, her actions signify, concern about actively avoiding me, with strong ill/mal feeling towards me talking with her. Key: lack of CONCERN. You dont a PO for someone you arent concerned about.
Because you're an annoyance, you're a gibbering brat.
 

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"Apathy is a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern about something. It is a state of indifference"

If you were apathetic, it wouldn't matter if someone was trying to talk to you. You'd be indifferent about it. You'd ignore it and not care about it. Instead, her actions signify, concern about actively avoiding me, with strong ill/mal feeling towards me talking with her. Key: lack of CONCERN. You dont a PO for someone you arent concerned about.
I'd class that as wishful thinking on your part, mate. More a sign of resignation on her part that you won't fuck off and get the hint.
 

Anaiah Carlson

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@Begemot is correct.
Love and hate both have strong emotional load, just with different vector.
Love and indifference are the opposites, one has emotional load (+), one doesn't (-).
I never said hate is the opposite of love. Its clear thst freaking out over someone sending innocent emails isnt apathy. It shows strong emotional negative reaction. What is an apathetic response to a message? Delete. Label as spam. Avoid. Ignore. But you certainly wouldnt care. It'd be a minor annoyance.

Nothing more.
 

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Except digestion is a process that is natural. An example of an unnatural change is surgery to make your stomach smaller or to give you a second stomach. Another example would be an organ donation giving you someone else's stomach. The food coming in normally is natural but trying to inject food into your body through an IV would be unnatural.

The production of the keyboard is unnatural because of the material it is made from. I distinguish between the use of something and the production of something. The keyboard doesn't cause the unnatural to occur, but rather the unnatural thing that happened was the keyboard was produced.

I'd say killing animals and preparing meat is natural whereas growing meat cells in a lab to mass produce meat would be unnatural. Cutting down trees and using wood to build stuff is natural. taking a plant cell and cloning the plant to mass reproduce to create lots of trees to be used for wood is unnatural.

Nuclear fusion caused by its normal process is natural. If humans initiate the process though its unnatural.


"Artificiality (the state of being artificial or human-made) is the state of being the product of intentional human manufacture, rather than occurring naturally through processes not involving or requiring human activity."

Eating food isn't artificial, because it isn't human-made. Similarly, having sex and producing through such natural methods is not artificial, because the process of reproduction isn't human-made. Various medical interventions assisting or producing a reproductive effect are artificial.

Etc
So you're saying that you stance of chemistry not being natural was wrong because you don't understand what chemistry is and you've come to the conclusion that man made things are man made. Truly, a brilliant mind at work. I would argue that anything humans do is natural in the broadest sense. It's man made, but it's natural. We evolved on Earth just like every other species unless you believe there was foreign intervention not bound by the laws or nature such as physics and chemistry. Even then, our own ignorance of natural law may be the limiting factor on understanding what is and is not natural.

Humans are not separate from the natural processes of this world. We understand them and can manipulate them in more complicated ways than any other species that we know of, but we cannot interject anything into the natural world that was not there to begin with. Your own citation of the concept of artificiality supports that. It states that artificial processes involve or require human input, not that anything requiring human input is unnatural. The atoms that make up the plastic of a keyboard are not magicked into existence. The polymer chains that make up plastic come from cellulose or decayed living matter in the form of petroleum. The bonds of these atoms are manipulated in accordance with natural law.

Separating or elevating what we humans do as outside the natural world is a very arrogant way of thinking in my opinion. I found in my experience that the people who do this have a romanticized view of the natural world, often due to ignorance or lack of experience. Earth Mother Gaia is as terrible as she is beautiful despite what anthropomorphising dreadlocked dope-smokers believe. Spending some time witnessing the cruelty that occurs day in and day out with no human intervention should be enough to dispel the noble savage view many people hold on nature. They just have to take off their rose colored glasses.
 

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So you're saying that you stance of chemistry not being natural was wrong because you don't understand what chemistry is and you've come to the conclusion that man made things are man made. Truly, a brilliant mind at work. I would argue that anything humans do is natural in the broadest sense. It's man made, but it's natural. We evolved on Earth just like every other species unless you believe there was foreign intervention not bound by the laws or nature such as physics and chemistry. Even then, our own ignorance of natural law may be the limiting factor on understanding what is and is not natural.

Humans are not separate from the natural processes of this world. We understand them and can manipulate them in more complicated ways than any other species that we know of, but we cannot interject anything into the natural world that was not there to begin with. Your own citation of the concept of artificiality supports that. It states that artificial processes involve or require human input, not that anything requiring human input is unnatural. The atoms that make up the plastic of a keyboard are not magicked into existence. The polymer chains that make up plastic come from cellulose or decayed living matter in the form of petroleum. The bonds of these atoms are manipulated in accordance with natural law.

Separating or elevating what we humans do as outside the natural world is a very arrogant way of thinking in my opinion. I found in my experience that the people who do this have a romanticized view of the natural world, often due to ignorance or lack of experience. Earth Mother Gaia is as terrible as she is beautiful despite what anthropomorphising dreadlocked dope-smokers believe. Spending some time witnessing the cruelty that occurs day in and day out with no human intervention should be enough to dispel the noble savage view many people hold on nature. They just have to take off their rose colored glasses.
Natural is the intended order/design of things. Yes everything iccurs in nature and there is no supernatural that goes against nature. Its all within the laws of nature. But natural is not the same as nature. They are different uses of the word meaning different connotations.
 

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Natural is the intended order/design of things.
This assumes there is some intention and design. I doubt there is and if there is it's way beyond human comprehension.

Yes everything iccurs in nature and there is no supernatural that goes against nature.
Nothing in my experience proves there is supernatural. It's a combination of tricks, scams, mental illness, confirmation bias, politics and misunderstanding. White lies people tell themselves to sleep better.
 

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Natural is the intended order/design of things. Yes everything iccurs in nature and there is no supernatural that goes against nature. Its all within the laws of nature. But natural is not the same as nature. They are different uses of the word meaning different connotations.
Please explain these differences.
 

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