Apple removes Fortnite from App Store over dispute of 30% commission -

LawTwitter is Dumb

Twitter is dumb, but Law Twitter is far dumber
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Timbo is talking about stuff like this

View attachment 1964598

Valve can essentially grab you by the balls much more easier if they don't like what you're putting on their platform. That part is true and rules like that are always a gray area and up to the company itself even if it's real fucking vague. It's more or less a catchall rule that allows for individual judgement, because someone will always try and find a way around.
Yea but what Timbo is wanting has far more damaging and further reaching consequences he doesn't even know about, all cause he can't do what HE wants, even when he does what Apple and every other company does in his own company.
 
Epic is going after Google in the UK too.

As much as I dislike Tencent, I do actually like what they are attempting here by trying to force lower cuts on Google and Apple. 30% is quite a steep amount of money when all you're doing is allowing people to actually purchase the product.

In sure it's going to end up changing absolutely nothing, except giving Tencent a larger piece of the pie. But if it does mean a lower industry standard in these app stores I think that would be great.
 

ZMOT

wat
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30% is quite a steep amount of money when all you're doing is allowing people to actually purchase the product.

besides providing the platform (which exist to make money), providing marketing to make the platform big enough you want to be on it, handle payments including fraud prevention (this is why you get tards like OMG CREDIT CARD FRAUD HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!?!), general support and customer trust to actually use the platform etc. 30% is debatable - even valve has now introduced a lower cut - but it's still more than just to get on the store (which usually is it's own fee).

this whole point is moot anyway since timmy himself implied 12% is not sustainable, and that was with offloading fees onto the customers.
 
besides providing the platform (which exist to make money), providing marketing to make the platform big enough you want to be on it, handle payments including fraud prevention (this is why you get tards like OMG CREDIT CARD FRAUD HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!?!), general support and customer trust to actually use the platform etc. 30% is debatable - even valve has now introduced a lower cut - but it's still more than just to get on the store (which usually is it's own fee).

this whole point is moot anyway since timmy himself implied 12% is not sustainable, and that was with offloading fees onto the customers.
According to EGS itself, they make about 4% profit (Up to 7% "with an industry of scale") with 12% and the offloading fees is only with certain niche payment options. EGS is barebones as fuck, and I'm sure running something like Steam does take a lot more staff and resources.

The Apple/Google app stores are the same low-effort trash that is the EGS. They don't need advertising to get big, as they are the de facto choice due to the only other congregate app store being Samsung's, they very likely get great deals with the banks, and your support will vary from being ignored, to bot responses.

I am empathetic to the claims of a monopoly on the platform, as that's exactly what the Apple playstore is, and the Google store comes near to it. Tencent Epic has acted antagonistically and like idiots through the entire thing, but I don't believe they are too wrong with their base claims.

Apple also cut their fees on publishers making less than $1 million a year. It's not too relevant, and as the article points out it probably isn't going to hurt them too much. (It won't hurt them too much because they probably make the majority of their money from apps that don't fit into that category.) Interesting though.

Edited for clarity.
 

LawTwitter is Dumb

Twitter is dumb, but Law Twitter is far dumber
kiwifarms.net
Epic is going after Google in the UK too.

As much as I dislike Tencent, I do actually like what they are attempting here by trying to force lower cuts on Google and Apple. 30% is quite a steep amount of money when all you're doing is allowing people to actually purchase the product.

In sure it's going to end up changing absolutely nothing, except giving Tencent a larger piece of the pie. But if it does mean a lower industry standard in these app stores I think that would be great.
30% isn’t steep, it’s industry standard. Epic does it too when games aren’t made on unreal engine or aren’t exclusive to their launcher.
 
30% isn’t steep, it’s industry standard. Epic does it too when games aren’t made on unreal engine or aren’t exclusive to their launcher.
I know it's standard, I'm saying the standard is steep. Sadly I wasn't able to find any information on the claim that Tencent EGS enforces 30% for non-Unreal/exclusive, do you have anything on it? It's certainly hypocritical if it's true, but that's been Tencent Epic from the start of this.
 
Well, okay, then do it yourself, keep 100%. Or set up something that does it for 20% or 10%. But none of these cunts are doing that, they're just bitching.
Well Tencent EGS is kinda doing that, though I question how reasonable 12% is for the wider market. Tencent Epic has forced Apple to drop fees for smaller devs to 15% as well. There is no choice on Apple products, because they're completely locked down, and the only choice that gets you resonable visibility on Android is the Google play store.

Bitching and trying to force them to lower rates is really the only option they have.
 

ZMOT

wat
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According to EGS itself, they make about 4% profit (Up to 7% "with an industry of scale") with 12% and the offloading fees is only with certain niche payment options. EGS is barebones as fuck, and I'm sure running something like Steam does take a lot more staff and resources.

The Apple/Google app stores are the same low-effort trash that is the EGS. They don't need advertising to get big, as they are the de facto choice due to the only other congregate app store being Samsung's, they very likely get great deals with the banks, and your support will vary from being ignored, to bot responses.

I am empathetic to the claims of a monopoly on the platform, as that's exactly what the Apple playstore is, and the Google store comes near to it. Tencent Epic has acted antagonistically and like idiots through the entire thing, but I don't believe they are too wrong with their base claims.

Apple also cut their fees on publishers making less than $1 million a year. It's not too relevant, and as the article points out it probably isn't going to hurt them too much. (It won't hurt them too much because they probably make the majority of their money from apps that don't fit into that category.) Interesting though.

Edited for clarity.

so how does apple make money besides overpriced hardware? the app store is nothing without the sold numbers of phones, that's where part of the money goes. bot or your friendly indian call center agent still costs money, good luck thinking you can just ignore support, that's an easy payout when shit hits the fan. and a payment platform is way more than being pals with banks. credit card companies have no problem telling you to fuck off, less likely with apple since they're so big, but that's what you pay them for after all. still doesn't mean they can do whatever they want, the second visa tells them "yeah, no, we're out" they're fucked, so they have a obvious interest to keep that relationship intact.

same way walmart won't make you a deal where they barely break even, you either abide by their rules (which you can re-negotiate depending on your position in the market) or you start selling your stuff on your own outside on the street. would you call that a monopoly?

but let's spitball, what do you think is gonna happen in case epic wins and the apple store is a monopoly?
 

Marissa Moira

kiwifarms.net
but let's spitball, what do you think is gonna happen in case epic wins and the apple store is a monopoly?
Best case scenario, apple gets scared shitless and decides to improve the app store so it will serve the app makers and users better at having their app be seen and improves their customer service so people won't want to move to another platform.

Worst case scenario, the app store fucking breaks even further and apple makes a bunch of half baked gestures to try and get around the ruling and it kills the mobile app market.

actually neither situation is actually bad....
 

HeyYou

YOU BETTER RUN!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Timbo is talking about stuff like this

View attachment 1964598

Valve can essentially grab you by the balls much more easier if they don't like what you're putting on their platform. That part is true and rules like that are always a gray area and up to the company itself even if it's real fucking vague. It's more or less a catchall rule that allows for individual judgement, because someone will always try and find a way around.
No, that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about Apple shutting down your device and account if you agree to a payment plan and don't make a payment, which is completely fucking reasonable. You're talking about an online store choosing what is allowed to be sold on it, which is also reasonable. Steam is damn near the most tolerant major storefront as is.
 
so how does apple make money besides overpriced hardware? the app store is nothing without the sold numbers of phones, that's where part of the money goes. bot or your friendly indian call center agent still costs money, good luck thinking you can just ignore support, that's an easy payout when shit hits the fan. and a payment platform is way more than being pals with banks. credit card companies have no problem telling you to fuck off, less likely with apple since they're so big, but that's what you pay them for after all. still doesn't mean they can do whatever they want, the second visa tells them "yeah, no, we're out" they're fucked, so they have a obvious interest to keep that relationship intact.

same way walmart won't make you a deal where they barely break even, you either abide by their rules (which you can re-negotiate depending on your position in the market) or you start selling your stuff on your own outside on the street. would you call that a monopoly?

but let's spitball, what do you think is gonna happen in case epic wins and the apple store is a monopoly?
I don't know where the money is flowing in from, but apparently the app store accounts for 22% of Apple's income according to that CNBC piece I mentioned before. I'd guess their subscription services account for quite a lot. Apple support is famously bad, both through their hardware side of things, where a manufacturing defect means they find water damage and charge you 50% of what you bought it for, or through account issues like a friend of mine recently had, where they couldn't recover their account despite having the bank accounts/credit card still in their name. Google can afford to ignore you too. Don't get me wrong, they both do hire people to do a lot of work that is tangentially related to support and that does cost money, but less money isn't going to hurt them too much. With their scale I just suspect they pay a few percent less on transactions than what Mastercard/Viisa has as their standard, which all goes towards saving money.

If you could only buy/sell at Walmart, or if Walmart was the only reasonable way to get your product seen and sold, it would be a monopoly

Well Arizona just Yesterday/Today passed this bill (Link to bill) which is related to this entire thing, which prevents stores from forcing companies to use their own payment system and from retaliating if they don't. (Which sounds like it would force a F2P game like Fortnite to be put up on the store and not allowed to be taken down, if they took actions like what Epic did last year. Which is bullshit, don't get me wrong.) For better and for worse, this isn't just between Epic and Google/Apple.

So best case scenario if the Apple/Google app stores are found to be monopolies they are forced to lower their store fees. Worst case scenario, boomer law-makers introduce a loophole that forces apps to be placed on the storefront for free, while allowing them to generate revenue without paying anything to Apple/Google.
 

LawTwitter is Dumb

Twitter is dumb, but Law Twitter is far dumber
kiwifarms.net
Apple also cut their fees on publishers making less than $1 million a year. It's not too relevant, and as the article points out it probably isn't going to hurt them too much. (It won't hurt them too much because they probably make the majority of their money from apps that don't fit into that category.) Interesting though.
Timbo didn't like Apple doing that, cause it didn't benefit him. Least I remember seeing him whine about it on Twitter or something, oh he also deleted his Reddit account. He tried to reason with people on the r/Fuck_Epic subreddit, went about as well as you would expect. I think I have a post in here on some of his comments in that subreddit, If I can find them I'll link to them.
 

moocow

Moo.
True & Honest Fan
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Well Tencent EGS is kinda doing that
lol no ... EGS doesn't even have a fucking shopping cart. You have to buy games one by one. That has actually fucked people who've tried to purchase several games in one go, because their credit cards flagged the repeated, consecutive transactions as fraud.

Want to complain that Steam's charging 30% and "that's too high"? Implement an equivalent service and charge less. "Equivalent" means game binary distribution, delta patching, DRM, per-region pricing and availability controls, cheat detection, trading cards, shopping cart, wish lists, discussion forums, customizable user profiles, livestreaming, streaming to another PC in your home, DLC support, public and private groups, bundle support, gifting, multiple copy "gift packs," workshop (mod hosting and searching, support for in-game mod and content downloads), instant messaging, multiplayer matchmaking, lobbies and invites with friends-only or public access with game integration and NAT and UPnP support, user reviews and ratings, hardware surveys, game tagging, "TV mode" (where the UI changes to a TV-friendly one), in-game overlay, family library sharing, command-line game asset access, support for Linux, MacOS and Windows, Android and iOS apps, two-factor authentication, privacy settings, recommendations, achievements, community support, and probably more stuff I've forgotten.

Piece of cake, right?
 

OmnipotentStupidity

Bleeding Money at Breakneck Speeds
kiwifarms.net

ZMOT

wat
kiwifarms.net
I don't know where the money is flowing in from, but apparently the app store accounts for 22% of Apple's income according to that CNBC piece I mentioned before. I'd guess their subscription services account for quite a lot. Apple support is famously bad, both through their hardware side of things, where a manufacturing defect means they find water damage and charge you 50% of what you bought it for, or through account issues like a friend of mine recently had, where they couldn't recover their account despite having the bank accounts/credit card still in their name. Google can afford to ignore you too. Don't get me wrong, they both do hire people to do a lot of work that is tangentially related to support and that does cost money, but less money isn't going to hurt them too much. With their scale I just suspect they pay a few percent less on transactions than what Mastercard/Viisa has as their standard, which all goes towards saving money.

If you could only buy/sell at Walmart, or if Walmart was the only reasonable way to get your product seen and sold, it would be a monopoly

Well Arizona just Yesterday/Today passed this bill (Link to bill) which is related to this entire thing, which prevents stores from forcing companies to use their own payment system and from retaliating if they don't. (Which sounds like it would force a F2P game like Fortnite to be put up on the store and not allowed to be taken down, if they took actions like what Epic did last year. Which is bullshit, don't get me wrong.) For better and for worse, this isn't just between Epic and Google/Apple.

So best case scenario if the Apple/Google app stores are found to be monopolies they are forced to lower their store fees. Worst case scenario, boomer law-makers introduce a loophole that forces apps to be placed on the storefront for free, while allowing them to generate revenue without paying anything to Apple/Google.

the problem with ignorance is that it inevitably blows up in your face, get dragged into court often enough and cheaper to adjust your procedures, or you get someone like the EU pissed off enough that they just fine you million because they need to plug their budget holes. this is fine if everything's going great, already struggling and a multi million fine or settlement is gonna hurt.

apple isn't the only store just like walmart isn't. if you don't like fruity phones you can always buy an android (which is bigger globally afair), and then still sideload. will you have the same reach and visibility as an app store or in walmart? probably not, but again that's what you pay for.

as for best case/worst case: it won't matter. they'll just make 2 app stores where one is complete crap because anything goes and no one is gonna use, and their own super special curated app store where the good stuff is and you still pay a 30% fee for whatever service they deem acceptable. probably more since now you can't even complain anymore, you're free to use the other store if you don't wanna pay 35 or 40%. same way microsoft being forced to offer a browser option didn't change anything. laws like that will always have a loophole since enough lobbying money flows into it to make sure it exists. while timmy buys games, apple buys government officials.
 
the problem with ignorance is that it inevitably blows up in your face, get dragged into court often enough and cheaper to adjust your procedures, or you get someone like the EU pissed off enough that they just fine you million because they need to plug their budget holes. this is fine if everything's going great, already struggling and a multi million fine or settlement is gonna hurt.

apple isn't the only store just like walmart isn't. if you don't like fruity phones you can always buy an android (which is bigger globally afair), and then still sideload. will you have the same reach and visibility as an app store or in walmart? probably not, but again that's what you pay for.

as for best case/worst case: it won't matter. they'll just make 2 app stores where one is complete crap because anything goes and no one is gonna use, and their own super special curated app store where the good stuff is and you still pay a 30% fee for whatever service they deem acceptable. probably more since now you can't even complain anymore, you're free to use the other store if you don't wanna pay 35 or 40%. same way microsoft being forced to offer a browser option didn't change anything. laws like that will always have a loophole since enough lobbying money flows into it to make sure it exists. while timmy buys games, apple buys government officials.
Sorry, but do you mean ignorance about the procedures of Apple, or ignorance on the part of the law-makers?

I understand that there is, if you take a wider view at it, a duopoly between the Apple+Google app stores, but for each individual platform there does exist imo a monopoly on the market for apps on either platform. The market reach is a fairly moot point when ultimately 90%+ of paid apps on Android are going through the Google app store, and something probably reaching closer to 99%+ of paid apps on IOS are going through the Apple app store. I'm not saying Epic is automatically in the right in this instance, just that I do believe there is an effective monopoly that is in place here.

The two app store example is arguably already in place with the Apple/Google app stores. The Apple store is a lot stricter than the Google store, people are much more willing to shell out cash for apps, attracting serious (TM) developers and I swear you used to have to pay to get access to the dev tools for IOS (Xcode)/Pay more for publishing to the Apple app store, scaring away people looking to put in highly experimental basic apps, but last I looked was a few years ago and that may of changed, or never existed. It really all depends on where the developers of the software actually publish their software, that dictates how the market goes.

I think the consequences for this entire thing are still up in the air and I wouldn't put bets on it one way or another, I just agree with the assertion that what Apple and Google are running, are de facto monopolies and that some focus on this entire thing isn't necessarily a bad thing.

May God help us all if the boomer law-makers get the final say though.
lol no ... EGS doesn't even have a fucking shopping cart. You have to buy games one by one. That has actually fucked people who've tried to purchase several games in one go, because their credit cards flagged the repeated, consecutive transactions as fraud.

Want to complain that Steam's charging 30% and "that's too high"? Implement an equivalent service and charge less. "Equivalent" means game binary distribution, delta patching, DRM, per-region pricing and availability controls, cheat detection, trading cards, shopping cart, wish lists, discussion forums, customizable user profiles, livestreaming, streaming to another PC in your home, DLC support, public and private groups, bundle support, gifting, multiple copy "gift packs," workshop (mod hosting and searching, support for in-game mod and content downloads), instant messaging, multiplayer matchmaking, lobbies and invites with friends-only or public access with game integration and NAT and UPnP support, user reviews and ratings, hardware surveys, game tagging, "TV mode" (where the UI changes to a TV-friendly one), in-game overlay, family library sharing, command-line game asset access, support for Linux, MacOS and Windows, Android and iOS apps, two-factor authentication, privacy settings, recommendations, achievements, community support, and probably more stuff I've forgotten.

Piece of cake, right?
I appreciate your input Capitán Obvio, and I agree with you that Steam is a much more complex beast that requires much more money and effort to keep afloat. As I pointed out earlier.

I disagree that Epic is doing nothing but complaining about it, as these lawsuits, Apple halving fee percentage on developers making less than $1 Million a year, and the bill being passed (In Arizona) shows otherwise.
 
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