Are we suffering a social breakdown in trust in America? - How does something like this play out, and how do you survive it? Do you become anti-social, or do you psychopath the psychopaths back?

[Haim Arlosoroff]

I was watching this video and I thought about America, we seem to have all the ingredients in this mix,

• Cowards, who are just acting pathologically in America and honestly are making bank like crazy (how many CEOs are psychopaths again?),​
• Imposters, like Jordan Peterson who groups a large white Classical Liberal™ Audience together only to tell them not to group together (as well as the average White Liberal who burns the coal or advocates for Nigeria to have voting rights because "the American President affects them too!"),​
• Based Black blues, who disappear first in the simulations because they blindly trust people who are awake to the decline and need for vicious zero-sum thinking,​
• Greens, who are stand-ins for in-group oriented people but who are preyed upon by the red imposters into extinction.​

It reminded me of the interactive lesson for Game Theory called The Evolution of Trust, which tries to game out how people should choose to live in a world with Cheats in it.

Does Kiwifarms have any advice about how this is all going to play out? Are we past the bad parts, are people waking up? Or is COVID isolation leading people to only temporarily mock and shout down would-be dictators?

Are people just going to go right back to deindustrializing America, trying to make more Trans Airline Pilots, and tweeting about climate change on the latest IPhone?

 

[Arm Pit Cream]

Imposters

Amongus?

 

[Varg Did Nothing Wrong]

wtf is this thread even trying to ask

can you bother proofreading your navel gazing before you post it

 

[break these cuffs]

Does Kiwifarms have any advice about how this is all going to play out?

Bullets, batteries, and lighters will be some of the most useful items to use as currency during the collapse. Grain alcohol is useful for a great many things besides getting drunk.

 

[Drain Todger]

There's one person I know who's like "Blah blah blah Prisoner's Dilemma means we all have to cooperate blah blah blah, the purpose of government is to get people to cooperate who would otherwise be hostile to each other's interests, even if it means deceiving them into cooperating, blah blah blah". He's the biggest fucking NPC I know.

You fundamentally can't have trust in a society where large portions of the population realize that they're being deceived and taken advantage of, and given how many people in the US will never own a home in their lifetimes despite working full-time jobs, this is an inevitability.

Obedience to the State is not a one-way street. It's an investment. If there's no reward, then why do it?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Does Kiwifarms have any advice about how this is all going to play out? Are we past the bad parts, are people waking up? Or is COVID isolation leading people to only temporarily mock and shout down would-be dictators?

Ha ha ha "would be dictators".

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Too long
Not gonna watch

 

[Just Dont]

I've posted in the thread about The Great Reset and there people weren't open to the idea of a new society.

The reality is that society as a whole in the world is collapsing and breaking apart. Starting with morality being skewed in favour of virthe signaling and the global economy tied up in physical assets and private banks.

Hegelian Dialectics explains that when society is at a breaking pointp the pendulum of the ideas held by the majority will invariable tend to go the oposite in extreme ways (in the 1800 we were leaving in feudalism then it changed to capitalism, now we are living in a liberal world and soon it will change to something authartic).

That cycle can't be broken by normal people, so it's either history repeating itself or a deeply entrenched change in culture were everything is destroyed to give away for new beginnings.

 

[mario if smoke weed]

> Breakdown

Shining, justice...

 

[Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite]

The prison's dilemma isn't the real test people should pay attention to.

Imagine 5 people are cooperating to hunt a deer. It takes all 5 to kill it, and with it they can all eat. A rabbit runs by, one grabs it and thus is able to feed himself. He abandons the others because his needs are met. This is what society more closely resembles. Its a group of people who agree to cooperate for the most part, however the second something happens that can fulfill the individual even if it fucks everyone else over they will grab it and say fuck the group.

Society is always doomed to fail because humans at their core are bastards. People are not waking up, they are buying the narrative that the issue is their neighbor from the powers that be instead of addressing the problem of wealth gap.

 

[Drain Todger]

The prison's dilemma isn't the real test people should pay attention to.

Imagine 5 people are cooperating to hunt a deer. It takes all 5 to kill it, and with it they can all eat. A rabbit runs by, one grabs it and thus is able to feed himself. He abandons the others because his needs are met. This is what society more closely resembles. Its a group of people who agree to cooperate for the most part, however the second something happens that can fulfill the individual even if it fucks everyone else over they will grab it and say fuck the group.

Society is always doomed to fail because humans at their core are bastards. People are not waking up, they are buying the narrative that the issue is their neighbor from the powers that be instead of addressing the problem of wealth gap.

Game Theory is totally useless for describing human behavior. All games are tautological. The axioms that they present are true because the rules are predefined. They are normative statements about how reality could possibly be, but not positive statements about anything that actually exists.

http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue83/Syll83.pdf

Imagine trying to apply Game Theory to a policy proposal, using the Prisoner's Dilemma to rationalize a new law, when the real-world situation is that Betrayers have far greater gain than those who cooperate.

Another problem is that people do not always make rational choices, especially when it comes to choosing what to consume and when. The whole point of advertising is to short-circuit people's rational decision-making processes and get them to form emotional attachments to products. Why is a Ferrari better than a Volvo if all you need is to get from point A to point B? Why is a De Beers diamond better than a synthetic one? Rationality doesn't kick in until the costs start piling up. There are plenty of people out there who wanted a Maserati all their life, only to be horrified by the cost of ownership of an actual sports car.

best of craigslist: Beautiful Italian Paperweight!

I'm not rich. I'm just an average dude that always wanted a Maserati. Since I was a kid I lusted after those Italian curves and exhaust note. Now my own kids come to me and ask me why there's no food to eat and the electricity has been turned off and I have to tell them it's because Daddy's car is sick again.

Humans are actually far more complicated than the proponents of classical economics and game theory would predict, and Behavioral Economics is actually a far better description of how people behave in reality.

https://movingworlds.org/behavioral-economics-for-social-impact

Why do stores price things as $99.95 instead of $100.00 when it's only five cents difference? Because $99.95 seems like a lot less than $100. Why do companies come out with "premium" products that cost twice as much as their other product but are hardly any better? Because if you sold the half-price one alone, it wouldn't be half-price; it would be full-price. The contrast of the expensive item makes the cheaper one seem more like a bargain; classical economics' "rational man" would notice that the half-price item is still the same price and refuse to buy it, but real people will idiotically go for the "deal". Why do you think gems or whatever in smartphone games are always listed as 50% off, and never as full-price? If something is $50, but they advertise it as "Wow, what a steal! $25!" all the time, then the actual full price is $25, and the other twenty-five dollars of markdown is just a mind game.

It's rather telling that corporations have implemented advertising techniques found in propaganda and psychological warfare manuals and almost completely tossed classical economics out the window when dealing with their customers.

Trust implies that those in power are allowing people to behave as rational actors. This is not even remotely the case. Everything about the modern state is calculate to manipulate people with political theater.

 

[Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite]

While people are not always rational actors, thats kind of a cop out. You can predict *most* behavior which is useful for figuring out how society at large will behave with some outliers who end up being irrelevant overall. For every great altruistic person there are several more who are self-interested assholes and its more useful to predict that behavior than guessing someone will work against their own self interest.

Its part of why social justice shit confuses me so much. For every white guilt person they grab onto, the true "oppressor" is probably drinking champagne that their evil plot to oppress the minority is working. This is sarcasm, but my point is that if you truly believe that the powers that be hate minorities what is your goal here? Getting them to stop that? Why would they? It works great for them and they're doing pretty good by your own statement, what motivation do powerful people have to change? Answer: none.

Furthermore, in context of the game theory I presented while it stems from realist theory, realism itself assumes an anarchic system in the international arena. The theory posits that nations behave as an individual would in more or less the state of nature. International liberals believe NGOs temper that, and I think that makes it more applicable to individuals than perhaps others. In my analogy here we have individual actors that are being tempered by society at large, the question becomes how much is society able to temper the individual's self interest to act for others?

 

[TheRedChair]

Interesting question. The short answer is ask me this question in 2022 when the elections happen in congress.

The longer answer is because of the Cancel Culture, the herd mentality of Generation Fail that is being exploited by just about everyone else that either has..

Money.
Power.
Influence.

The Rich will get richer.
The Poor will get poorer.
The K style of economy is here and enforced by the Feds giving cheap loans to business BUT Not to consumers.

Because assholes think they are always right and everyone else is always wrong. There is no such thing is dialog and coming to an agreement anymore.

You are not going to see a collapse of society as you see on TV.
What you are seeing is history is repeating itself and what I believe which is already been happening for the past 13 years is more and more of people who did not financially prepare will becomes slaves to the corporation.

It called Neo Feudalism.

Really suck to know that is your whole entire life will be from cradle to grave you will be enslaved to debt, with the illusion of hope of breaking those corporate chains of bondage.

Social Justice is just another excuse of a power grab for the few to control the many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2_m5fY_1og

As well as this. Twitter controlling the narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGPWf1ZIdds

 

[Yinci]

Might have already replied to this. The United States is in a odd place right now. I am paranoid about them as I see them as a Geo-poltical threat if they decided to go ironfist.

There is a devide between au

Interesting question. The short answer is ask me this question in 2022 when the elections happen in congress.

The longer answer is because of the Cancel Culture, the herd mentality of Generation Fail that is being exploited by just about everyone else that either has..

Money.
Power.
Influence.

The Rich will get richer.
The Poor will get poorer.
The K style of economy is here and enforced by the Feds giving cheap loans to business BUT Not to consumers.

Because assholes think they are always right and everyone else is always wrong. There is no such thing is dialog and coming to an agreement anymore.

You are not going to see a collapse of society as you see on TV.
What you are seeing is history is repeating itself and what I believe which is already been happening for the past 13 years is more and more of people who did not financially prepare will becomes slaves to the corporation.

It called Neo Feudalism.

Really suck to know that is your whole entire life will be from cradle to grave you will be enslaved to debt, with the illusion of hope of breaking those corporate chains of bondage.

Social Justice is just another excuse of a power grab for the few to control the many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2_m5fY_1og

As well as this. Twitter controlling the narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGPWf1ZIdds

You lost me when you said "Neo Feudalism". That's like you will sit around on your ass and get free money and become a degenerate. I wish, I think we're all gonna fall into being utilized by China or India which means endless shit jobs and pay. It could already be on that way as well.

What i think is that the parties with business ties to China had a plan of stagnating wages and using cheap labor in the American Homeland taking advantage of the American ideological economic stubbornness. As Tension with China happened you notice that the Government has been trying to decrease unemployment to apoint where wages start to grow again. Covid ruin this in Trumps administration but It's magically happening with Biden again.

If you look at a graph, the Obama Era unemployment was at 7% and this is where wages don't grow. They grow when unemployment rach's 3% and below and this almost happened with Trump. It shot to 30% or 14% and recovered to 7% and is slowly coming back down.

The Economic keys to power in the United States will always push to stagnate wages but for now the government needs to win back people's support.

 

[TheRedChair]

Might have already replied to this. The United States is in a odd place right now. I am paranoid about them as I see them as a Geo-poltical threat if they decided to go ironfist.

There is a devide between au

You lost me when you said "Neo Feudalism". That's like you will sit around on your ass and get free money and become a degenerate. I wish, I think we're all gonna fall into being utilized by China or India which means endless shit jobs and pay. It could already be on that way as well.

What i think is that the parties with business ties to China had a plan of stagnating wages and using cheap labor in the American Homeland taking advantage of the American ideological economic stubbornness. As Tension with China happened you notice that the Government has been trying to decrease unemployment to apoint where wages start to grow again. Covid ruin this in Trumps administration but It's magically happening with Biden again.

If you look at a graph, the Obama Era unemployment was at 7% and this is where wages don't grow. They grow when unemployment rach's 3% and below and this almost happened with Trump. It shot to 30% or 14% and recovered to 7% and is slowly coming back down.

The Economic keys to power in the United States will always push to stagnate wages but for now the government needs to win back people's support.

Reply.

There is a crap load of information about what Neo-Feudalism is

Here is a simple Wiki on it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-feudalism

 

[JosephStalin]

The national debacle known as the response to the ChiCom Flu has accelerated the total loss of trust in government/law enforcement/judiciary/media, at all levels. Time and again I get the answer "no", when I ask people if they now trust the government to do the right thing.

However, let's separate this trust issue from our daily lives. We trust the guy/gal at the garage to fix our car. We trust the handyman to fix our door. We trust the dentist to fix our teeth. We trust the restaurant to fix us the meal we ordered.

So there's a dichotomy re trust. We trust the various people in our daily lives to do what they set out to do, and we are trusted in turn to do what we say we'll do. Trust in people is stronger than trust in institutions and those who work for those institutions. You see people doing all they can to live without reference to government/law enforcement/judiciary/media, since they know these institutions can neither be believed or trusted.

Not a good situation, but government/law enforcement/judiciary/media brought it on themselves. If government/media wasn't continually stirring up the shit, believe the vast majority of Americans would get along just fine. I interact every day with those of different races than me, of different religions, and of different political beliefs. We get along just fine, do whatever we need to do. Plenty of things to talk about instead of the things government/media wants us to talk about to keep stoking the national level of anger, to keep putting us at odds with each other. When we ignore their bullshit and rabble-rousing, they lose.

 

[Drain Todger]

The national debacle known as the response to the ChiCom Flu has accelerated the total loss of trust in government/law enforcement/judiciary/media, at all levels. Time and again I get the answer "no", when I ask people if they now trust the government to do the right thing.

However, let's separate this trust issue from our daily lives. We trust the guy/gal at the garage to fix our car. We trust the handyman to fix our door. We trust the dentist to fix our teeth. We trust the restaurant to fix us the meal we ordered.

So there's a dichotomy re trust. We trust the various people in our daily lives to do what they set out to do, and we are trusted in turn to do what we say we'll do. Trust in people is stronger than trust in institutions and those who work for those institutions. You see people doing all they can to live without reference to government/law enforcement/judiciary/media, since they know these institutions can neither be believed or trusted.

Not a good situation, but government/law enforcement/judiciary/media brought it on themselves. If government/media wasn't continually stirring up the shit, believe the vast majority of Americans would get along just fine. I interact every day with those of different races than me, of different religions, and of different political beliefs. We get along just fine, do whatever we need to do. Plenty of things to talk about instead of the things government/media wants us to talk about to keep stoking the national level of anger, to keep putting us at odds with each other. When we ignore their bullshit and rabble-rousing, they lose.

I came to a bit of an epiphany over the past year, after discussing some things with some people I know, and reviewing everything I’ve studied over the past decade, and it’s a very depressing conclusion.

The Managerial State doesn’t actually give a damn what anyone thinks. In the system of governance in which we live, citizens are not viewed as rational agents, but merely as obstacles to be overcome; placated with bread and circuses, managed with eugenics, and manipulated with fear. People are treated as objects to be categorized with Big Data and guided towards whatever ends are desired by the tiny Elite that is in charge of the Managerial Class. The desired end-result of the system is to create a Global Brazil and turn everyone into a bland, interchangeable producer-consumer unit, bent to the whims of supranational organizations and international finance.

The agency of the average person in this system is irrelevant. Their choices do not matter. In fact, the system is calculated to suppress collective action that works against the interests of the Elite. It feeds people the illusion that their choices make a real impact, when ultimately, we are not participants in the system but prisoners of it. The rising distrust of government is because a growing number of people are collectively coming to the same exact realization.

 

[VIPPER?]

Zero* trust auth and the Blockchain™ will fix it. Invest US dollars into my crypto scheme and society's problems will melt away!

 

[Garm]

1. Specialization in career fields have not helped the situation. A friend of mine left a job at a call center to become a mechanic. He lamented that "I can't talk to people anymore because no one understands me when I talk about 'I have 3 thousandths of an inch tolerance'".

So we have a Tower of Babel situation going on. Technical Jargon makes people outside "The Know" feel you are making them look stupid because they can't understand you.

2. This has bled into politics where people often seem to be "talking past each other." They can agree that something needs to be done but disagree on the means to fix it, leading to accusations of 'bad faith."

3. Media and government want to keep people divided. I've got people who will agree to this but will not do the further steps of looking into an issue. And people have been brainwashed into believing "official sources" and if you go looking into source documents, you are some kind of Alex Jones kook.

4. Ignorance. Everyone wants to act like they are knowledgeable on an issue but are really talking out of their ass.

5. Cultural drift. Greatest Generation gave way to the materialistic boomers. Boomers didn't learn or care about philosophy or "what is a good life." Generation X rebelled which meant heavier drugs and had no idea how to make society function. Millenials decided to rebel against previous generations with even heavier drugs and think material wealth was the "end all, be all." Turns out it isn't so we have this cultural malaise.

Solutions: probably adult education. Just because you graduated does not mean learning should stop. Go read some fucking books.

Also people need to know what the fuck they are talking about. Too many people chattering over nothing they have control over.

Tune out media. It is all designed to terrify you anyway.

 

[Unpaid Emotional Labourer]

Well, yes. I think a psyop began in the late 90s or so, tested in places like Rwanda, that experimented with the effect of whispered hate campaigns in dividing people.

Not whispers of “I hate you, I hate people like you, people like me hate people like you,“ but the opposite. “They hate you, you know. They hate you, they hate people like you. People like them hate people like you.”

It grew out of the most fundamental divisions, exploiting existing fissures, and it’s first big victory was exploiting the foundational existing division that has persisted, everywhere, in every time: male/female. Women were told men hate us. Men seem to have been told women hate them. Now, before you shriek “WHAT?? I have personally witnessed this hatred and I know it is real!” what I’m saying is, how much was organic and how much was women reacting to being told men hate us and want to kill us, and men reacting to the same?

So at this point I can’t even enumerate the divisions identified and exploited. Gender, race, sexual orientation, class, age, and of course political parties. Everything became catastrophized. Every division, each side convinced that the other side literally wants to genocide them out of existence.

Then, once those hostilities were set up, they were injected into EVERYTHING. Hobbies. Food. Funerals. Birth. Death. Parent/child relationships. Nobody can go anywhere, do anything, think anything, say anything, in peace. Conflict must be injected everywhere and if you don’t like it, YOU are the aggressor. If you try to escape it, you will be hounded, escape is not allowed. For anyone.

At this point, I know parents who have genuine reason to believe that their own kids have set up spy cams to try to catch their parents saying something they can post to social media. Even though it would cost their parents their jobs and they’d all be homeless. That is...I mean We Live in a Society where it is entirely conceivable that children are spies informing on their parents.

Here we are. Here we are.