Avengers: Endgame - This is the end, beautiful friend

friedshrimp

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Doug Walker loves the fuck out of them for Emma Stone and "Omg dark and gritty". He also hates the Raimi Spiderman movies to an almost autistic degree.

And of course, the Doug Walker followers mimic their Lord's thoughts.

You know, loud Spiderman fans I don't think should count for their opinions. I noticed they went from "omg Andrew Garfield is better than Maguire cause Spiderman SHOULD QUIP" to "it makes sense to have Spiderman as a teen since he started out as a teen OMG Tom Holland is the definitive Spiderman"

I think they don't really know much about Spidey aside from pop culture knowledge but they claim to be experts cause they ship him with Deadpool or something. Weird. I'm kinda surprised at how they didn't rant over how "inaccurate" Peter B. Parker in Spiderverse was according to them.
 
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StarkRavingMad

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Doug Walker loves the fuck out of them for Emma Stone and "Omg dark and gritty". He also hates the Raimi Spiderman movies to an almost autistic degree.

And of course, the Doug Walker followers mimic their Lord's thoughts.

You know, loud Spiderman fans I don't think should count for their opinions. I noticed they went from "omg Andrew Garfield is better than Maguire cause Spiderman SHOULD QUIP" to "it makes sense to have Spiderman as a teen since he started out as a teen OMG Tom Holland is the definitive Spiderman"

I think they don't really know much about Spidey aside from pop culture knowledge but they claim to be experts cause they ship him with Deadpool or something. Weird. I'm kinda surprised at how they didn't rant over how "inaccurate" Peter B. Parker in Spiderverse was according to them.
Of course Doug Walker prefers the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man movies. Why am I not surprised?

The only people who like those movies are "edgy" 12 year-old boys, or grown-ass men who have the maturity of an "edgy" 12 year-old boy. Zack Snyder types, I suppose.

In the first Amazing Spider-Man movie, Spidey literally threatens a criminal's life, saying something to the effect of "Good thing for you that the cops got here, because I was about to suffocate you" as he was on a Frank Castle-esque revenge quest. How in the holy fuck is that, in any way, shape, or form, accurate to Spider-Man?! Jesus!
 
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Testaclese Maximus

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Honestly I think Garfield did an adequate job as their version of Peter Parker even though the movies themselves were a mess. I don’t know what the “definitive” is because I don’t read comics, but I do enjoy the MCU version the most just because I really like the “Tony Stark’s protege” arc they’ve given him.
 

iRON-mAn

kiwifarms.net
I enjoyed the TASM films but I wouldn't go so far as to call them good. Admittedly, I'm probably a little lenient on those movies because I think they were fine, but they got trashed in comparison to the Raimi trilogy, when those films really didn't hold up in later years. The main three, Maguire, Dunst and Franco are all very cringy in every single movie.
TASM was very hipster though, and a product of its time too. I thought Garfield and Stone did better in their roles than the original trio, but they didn't really have a good stories to work with and they rushed the Death of Gwen Stacy plot. TASM2 isn't really any worse than SM3, though it isn't better either.
 
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Next Task

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The only real pass The Amazing Spider-Man movies should get are for Emma Stone, her chemistry with Andrew Garfield, and Sally Field as Aunt May (but then, I really like her speech in the second one where you realise she knows Peter is Spider-Man, but can't say it). Their version of quippy Spider-Man just didn't work, they took villains like the lizard guy and Electro and Green Goblin and didn't do them justice - hell, that they went back to the Green Goblin was a bad idea in the first place. The Death of Gwen Stacy is a story that it takes a lot to fuck up, so they did decently there, but that's because they would have had to put effort in to fail such a strong storyline completely.

I liked Homecoming a lot, in large part because I liked that Peter's enthusiasm was greater than his skill, so that we could see both his potential but also how much he had to learn. I also thought they did a good job with his relationship with The Vulture, and that while he was a teenager again it didn't rehash his origin story again. Being part of the MCU, they got to focus on the building of Peter's world because the greater world-building was already done, and really my main complaint about the film was how hard it was to follow the action rather than most of the plot or character choices.

Into the Spiderverse is still the best Spider-Man movie, no question, hands down, though. It managed to get right what the previous films had gotten wrong, made Miles compelling on his own as well as through his connections to Spider-Gwen and even both Peter Parkers, and being animated it could really work as a moving comic book movie, rather than a live-action adaptation of a comic book. It was a film that felt completely unnecessary - until you watched it and realised it was the best one of them all.
 

That Chris Guy

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You know, at first I was excited about MCU Spider-Man (mostly because that meant those god awful Andrew Garfield movies were officially DEAD) ... Then I became skeptical because they were going to make him a highschooler again. For me, personally, the MCU has proven my doubts wrong thus far. Having Peter start as a teenager creates variety in the big cast of MCU characters, and the MCU actually has done stuff to their advantage by making Peter a teenager (example: His dynamic with Tony Stark).

I'm also getting comic book vibes because Spider-Man starts to become an elite fighter due to his experiences working with the older superheroes. His fighting style is very unique in the comic books because of that. I hope that in the new Spider-Man movie, we get to see Spidey actually kick some serious ass without help, showcasing that he's more experienced as a fighter now.

I say that as long as the MCU allows Peter to actually grow up, then starting him off as a teenager was a great decision.
I don't have any faith that this will happen, but it would be a pleasant surprise if it did.

Homecoming painted an environment I have no interest in, which was full of grossly incompetent adults and extremely douche-y teenagers (particularly in Mary Jane's attitude). I'm critical of movie segments that make you question why they didn't go with the more logical, obvious choices, and Homecoming did more of that than good. The best part of the film was the dynamic with Stark without question, but it wasn't enough to save the movie for me. I've considered watching Into the Spiderverse, but that's about it.
 
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How the straight agenda ruined ‘Avengers: Endgame’


Avengers: Endgame may be the straightest Marvel movie to date; an impressive feat considering the amount of attention paid to its blink-and-you’ll-miss-it gay cameo.

It’s not exactly news that the MCU is dominated by straight, white men, both on-screen and off. By focusing on the original Avengers team, Endgame highlighted the lack of diversity in Marvel’s earlier years —and illustrated how queer storytelling is more complicated than just showing (or not showing) a gay character on-screen. Basically, this film’s conception of a “happy ending“ is so rooted in heteronormativity that it ruined the final act for several key characters.

For most of the Avengers, Endgame’s conclusion was as much about embracing a conventional nuclear family as it was about defeating Thanos. Tony Stark dies, but not before settling down as a husband and father. Steve Rogers goes back in time and marries Peggy Carter, an idea that makes no emotional sense for reasons I’ll explain in a moment. Hawkeye returns peacefully to his family after spending five years on a killing spree. Ant-Man and the Wasp curl up with his now-teenage daughter.

Meanwhile, Thor (who doesn’t have a girlfriend) ends his rather downbeat arc by ceding his crown to Valkyrie. Rhodey and Bruce, our other two bachelors, don’t really get endings of their own, focusing instead on their grief for Tony. Black Widow, as many fans have pointed out, doesn’t get a proper send-off.

For Black Widow (and the film’s other female lead, Nebula), there’s an argument to be made that Endgame’s writers can’t handle a happy ending for a woman without heterosexual romance. Natasha Romanov probably died because Scarlett Johansson wants to leave the franchise after her solo movie, but the way Endgame handled her departure was disappointing. Following a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse, both she and Nebula end up killing themselves for the greater good.

Black Widow, Hawkeye, and the nuclear family
Thanks to being written by multiple writers over multiple films, Black Widow has an uneven role in the MCU. Captain America: The Winter Soldier is probably her best movie, portraying her as a veteran spy with a dry sense of humor. Age of Ultron is her worst, with Joss Whedon introducing the wildly sexist idea that Natasha sees herself as a monster because she’s infertile, and therefore she can’t have a relationship with Bruce Banner. This subplot arrived at the same time as Hawkeye’s thinly characterized family, whose main role was to reboot Clint Barton as an everyman dad.

As critic Clarkisha Kent points out in this excellent Twitter thread, Natasha’s inability to have children foreshadowed her expendability in Endgame. Natasha sacrifices herself so Hawkeye can return to his family, an idea that has no emotional reward because we don’t know Hawkeye’s family.



Unlike Pepper Potts or Ant-Man’s daughter Cassie, who have memorable roles, Hawkeye’s wife and kids are cardboard cutouts who get fridged so he can have a homicidal makeover. While the other (childless) Avengers respond to Thanos’ Snap on a macro level, Hawkeye’s reaction is keenly personal and much more extreme: he becomes a serial killer. Yet instead of setting him up for redemption (ie. by sacrificing himself on Vormir), we’re expected to forget this killing spree once he reunites with his family. Like most of the happy endings in Endgame, this reunion is viewed from the man’s perspective, with wives and children providing solace after men return from battle.

Despite the film’s celebration of friendship and teamwork, its ending downplays the role of “found family” relationships. The Avengers are the closest thing Natasha has to a family, and Steve Rogers’ most enduring relationship is with Bucky Barnes, but these don’t fit into a heteronormative image of a family, so Endgame erases them.

Marvel’s battle against queer subtext
While there aren’t any openly LGBTQ Avengers, the MCU full of queer subtext that fans have discussed for years. Valkyrie is clearly bisexual. Captain Marvel and her friend Maria can easily be read as a couple. And then there’s Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, one of the greatest love stories—platonic or otherwise—in the franchise.

Bucky is the emotional cornerstone of the Captain America trilogy. Each film sees Steve rebel against authority for the sake of Bucky’s wellbeing, escalating from disobeying orders in WWII, to becoming an international fugitive in Civil War. But while this intense friendship coexists easily with Steve and Peggy’s romance in the first two movies, things go off the rails after The Winter Soldier. From then on, Marvel gets antsy about giving Steve and Bucky too much screentime together. Civil War gave Steve an unconvincing new love-interest, and the last two Avengers movies take pains to keep him and Bucky apart, avoiding the kind of crowd-pleasing reunion we see between characters with much less personal history.

Steve/Bucky is the most popular ship in MCU fandom; something that’s reached the mainstream conversation around these movies. In response, Endgame feels like Marvel attempting to no-homo its way out of Steve and Bucky’s image as a romantic couple. It’s the narrative equivalent of that “two bros chillin’ in a hot tub, five feet apart cuz they’re not gay” meme. First, Bucky went back into cryostasis after Civil War, removing himself once again from Steve’s life. Then Infinity Warkept them apart, followed by Endgameemphasizing Steve’s old love for Peggy. This culminates in a sequence where Steve barely acknowledges Bucky’s return from the dead, and then abandons him with no warning to start a new life in the past.

Steve’s marriage to Peggy is meant to be a satisfying conclusion, allowing Chris Evans to gracefully bow out of the franchise. But in addition to making no sense (the writers and directors can’t even agree on whether Steve ends up in an alternate universe or stays in the same timeline), this ending obliterates years of character development. It’s a great example of how heteronormative expectations can hurt a story. Canonically, Steve and Bucky are straight. Yet they’re not perceived as straight enough until Steve breaks off his friendship with Bucky, and returns to a woman he kissed five movies ago.

In a post-film interview, Endgame’s writers framed Peggy as a reward Steve deserved after years of toil. By contrast, they describe Steve and Bucky as being “healthy” enough to “move on” from each other after Endgame, as if that’s something either character would want or need. Steve’s desire to reunite with Bucky is one of the main driving forces of his life. Meanwhile, in The Winter Soldier, it’s Peggy who Steve needs to move on from. Their love story was cut short by circumstance, but Peggy ultimately built a life for herself, married someone else, and had kids.

As one of the most beloved women in the MCU, fans always responded to Peggy’s independence, which is why it’s so dispiritingto see her become the silent receptacle for Steve’s happy ending. We’re also expected to believe that Peggy would marry Future Steve (a near-stranger) while her own Steve is still frozen in the Arctic ice… and that Future Steve would abandon “his” Bucky in 2023. This epilogue erases much of Steve’s personal journey, removes Peggy Carter’s agency, and destroys any chance of closure for Steve and Bucky.

The idea that Marvel intentionally mothballed Steve and Bucky’s relationship is a conspiracy theory, but it’s a conspiracy theory I can easily believe. When fans pick up on queer subtext in this kind of media property, creators often react by trying to dial things back, either by marrying off one of the characters or by separating them. The problem is, Steve and Bucky’s friendship is the lynchpin of their franchise. If you try to tone it down to avoid gay subtext, you’re shooting your own story in the foot.

At the very least, writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely misunderstood the arc they set up in earlier films. The result is a clash between their desire for a heteronormative ending and the reality of the queer-coded friendship between Steve and Bucky. As Rotem Rusak points out in the comics blog Bam Smack Pow, Bucky already fulfilled the love interest role in Steve’s narrative, repeatedly cast as a vulnerable figure at the center of Steve’s emotional universe. After creating this compelling love story in earlier films, Markus and McFeely tripped over themselves trying to downplay Bucky’s importance in Endgame. “There is such a deep intimacy between Steve and Bucky,” writes Rusak. “Such a powerful love and an intensity of loss, that if they are together, they must express it, and that expression is taboo. For the fans to like it, is taboo. And the only way to deal with it is to separate them.“

So in the end, enforced straightness won out, regardless of whether it made sense for any of the characters involved.

When fans campaign for queer representation, a common response is that queer characters shouldn’t be “forced” into stories “for no reason.” Conservatives argue that franchises like Marvel shouldn’t just introduce queer characters “for the sake of it.” Obviously, that’s nonsense, but if we ever needed an example of romance and sexuality being forced unnaturally into an existing story, it’s Avengers: Endgame. Obsessed with traditional family values, this film derailed several of its main character arcs to make way for incoherent and offensive endings.
 

God of Nothing

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How the straight agenda ruined ‘Avengers: Endgame’


Avengers: Endgame may be the straightest Marvel movie to date; an impressive feat considering the amount of attention paid to its blink-and-you’ll-miss-it gay cameo.

It’s not exactly news that the MCU is dominated by straight, white men, both on-screen and off. By focusing on the original Avengers team, Endgame highlighted the lack of diversity in Marvel’s earlier years —and illustrated how queer storytelling is more complicated than just showing (or not showing) a gay character on-screen. Basically, this film’s conception of a “happy ending“ is so rooted in heteronormativity that it ruined the final act for several key characters.

For most of the Avengers, Endgame’s conclusion was as much about embracing a conventional nuclear family as it was about defeating Thanos. Tony Stark dies, but not before settling down as a husband and father. Steve Rogers goes back in time and marries Peggy Carter, an idea that makes no emotional sense for reasons I’ll explain in a moment. Hawkeye returns peacefully to his family after spending five years on a killing spree. Ant-Man and the Wasp curl up with his now-teenage daughter.

Meanwhile, Thor (who doesn’t have a girlfriend) ends his rather downbeat arc by ceding his crown to Valkyrie. Rhodey and Bruce, our other two bachelors, don’t really get endings of their own, focusing instead on their grief for Tony. Black Widow, as many fans have pointed out, doesn’t get a proper send-off.

For Black Widow (and the film’s other female lead, Nebula), there’s an argument to be made that Endgame’s writers can’t handle a happy ending for a woman without heterosexual romance. Natasha Romanov probably died because Scarlett Johansson wants to leave the franchise after her solo movie, but the way Endgame handled her departure was disappointing. Following a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse, both she and Nebula end up killing themselves for the greater good.

Black Widow, Hawkeye, and the nuclear family
Thanks to being written by multiple writers over multiple films, Black Widow has an uneven role in the MCU. Captain America: The Winter Soldier is probably her best movie, portraying her as a veteran spy with a dry sense of humor. Age of Ultron is her worst, with Joss Whedon introducing the wildly sexist idea that Natasha sees herself as a monster because she’s infertile, and therefore she can’t have a relationship with Bruce Banner. This subplot arrived at the same time as Hawkeye’s thinly characterized family, whose main role was to reboot Clint Barton as an everyman dad.

As critic Clarkisha Kent points out in this excellent Twitter thread, Natasha’s inability to have children foreshadowed her expendability in Endgame. Natasha sacrifices herself so Hawkeye can return to his family, an idea that has no emotional reward because we don’t know Hawkeye’s family.



Unlike Pepper Potts or Ant-Man’s daughter Cassie, who have memorable roles, Hawkeye’s wife and kids are cardboard cutouts who get fridged so he can have a homicidal makeover. While the other (childless) Avengers respond to Thanos’ Snap on a macro level, Hawkeye’s reaction is keenly personal and much more extreme: he becomes a serial killer. Yet instead of setting him up for redemption (ie. by sacrificing himself on Vormir), we’re expected to forget this killing spree once he reunites with his family. Like most of the happy endings in Endgame, this reunion is viewed from the man’s perspective, with wives and children providing solace after men return from battle.

Despite the film’s celebration of friendship and teamwork, its ending downplays the role of “found family” relationships. The Avengers are the closest thing Natasha has to a family, and Steve Rogers’ most enduring relationship is with Bucky Barnes, but these don’t fit into a heteronormative image of a family, so Endgame erases them.

Marvel’s battle against queer subtext
While there aren’t any openly LGBTQ Avengers, the MCU full of queer subtext that fans have discussed for years. Valkyrie is clearly bisexual. Captain Marvel and her friend Maria can easily be read as a couple. And then there’s Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, one of the greatest love stories—platonic or otherwise—in the franchise.

Bucky is the emotional cornerstone of the Captain America trilogy. Each film sees Steve rebel against authority for the sake of Bucky’s wellbeing, escalating from disobeying orders in WWII, to becoming an international fugitive in Civil War. But while this intense friendship coexists easily with Steve and Peggy’s romance in the first two movies, things go off the rails after The Winter Soldier. From then on, Marvel gets antsy about giving Steve and Bucky too much screentime together. Civil War gave Steve an unconvincing new love-interest, and the last two Avengers movies take pains to keep him and Bucky apart, avoiding the kind of crowd-pleasing reunion we see between characters with much less personal history.

Steve/Bucky is the most popular ship in MCU fandom; something that’s reached the mainstream conversation around these movies. In response, Endgame feels like Marvel attempting to no-homo its way out of Steve and Bucky’s image as a romantic couple. It’s the narrative equivalent of that “two bros chillin’ in a hot tub, five feet apart cuz they’re not gay” meme. First, Bucky went back into cryostasis after Civil War, removing himself once again from Steve’s life. Then Infinity Warkept them apart, followed by Endgameemphasizing Steve’s old love for Peggy. This culminates in a sequence where Steve barely acknowledges Bucky’s return from the dead, and then abandons him with no warning to start a new life in the past.

Steve’s marriage to Peggy is meant to be a satisfying conclusion, allowing Chris Evans to gracefully bow out of the franchise. But in addition to making no sense (the writers and directors can’t even agree on whether Steve ends up in an alternate universe or stays in the same timeline), this ending obliterates years of character development. It’s a great example of how heteronormative expectations can hurt a story. Canonically, Steve and Bucky are straight. Yet they’re not perceived as straight enough until Steve breaks off his friendship with Bucky, and returns to a woman he kissed five movies ago.

In a post-film interview, Endgame’s writers framed Peggy as a reward Steve deserved after years of toil. By contrast, they describe Steve and Bucky as being “healthy” enough to “move on” from each other after Endgame, as if that’s something either character would want or need. Steve’s desire to reunite with Bucky is one of the main driving forces of his life. Meanwhile, in The Winter Soldier, it’s Peggy who Steve needs to move on from. Their love story was cut short by circumstance, but Peggy ultimately built a life for herself, married someone else, and had kids.

As one of the most beloved women in the MCU, fans always responded to Peggy’s independence, which is why it’s so dispiritingto see her become the silent receptacle for Steve’s happy ending. We’re also expected to believe that Peggy would marry Future Steve (a near-stranger) while her own Steve is still frozen in the Arctic ice… and that Future Steve would abandon “his” Bucky in 2023. This epilogue erases much of Steve’s personal journey, removes Peggy Carter’s agency, and destroys any chance of closure for Steve and Bucky.

The idea that Marvel intentionally mothballed Steve and Bucky’s relationship is a conspiracy theory, but it’s a conspiracy theory I can easily believe. When fans pick up on queer subtext in this kind of media property, creators often react by trying to dial things back, either by marrying off one of the characters or by separating them. The problem is, Steve and Bucky’s friendship is the lynchpin of their franchise. If you try to tone it down to avoid gay subtext, you’re shooting your own story in the foot.

At the very least, writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely misunderstood the arc they set up in earlier films. The result is a clash between their desire for a heteronormative ending and the reality of the queer-coded friendship between Steve and Bucky. As Rotem Rusak points out in the comics blog Bam Smack Pow, Bucky already fulfilled the love interest role in Steve’s narrative, repeatedly cast as a vulnerable figure at the center of Steve’s emotional universe. After creating this compelling love story in earlier films, Markus and McFeely tripped over themselves trying to downplay Bucky’s importance in Endgame. “There is such a deep intimacy between Steve and Bucky,” writes Rusak. “Such a powerful love and an intensity of loss, that if they are together, they must express it, and that expression is taboo. For the fans to like it, is taboo. And the only way to deal with it is to separate them.“

So in the end, enforced straightness won out, regardless of whether it made sense for any of the characters involved.

When fans campaign for queer representation, a common response is that queer characters shouldn’t be “forced” into stories “for no reason.” Conservatives argue that franchises like Marvel shouldn’t just introduce queer characters “for the sake of it.” Obviously, that’s nonsense, but if we ever needed an example of romance and sexuality being forced unnaturally into an existing story, it’s Avengers: Endgame. Obsessed with traditional family values, this film derailed several of its main character arcs to make way for incoherent and offensive endings.
What the actual fuck? Can these people not separate anything from their bullshit politics? Jesus Christ, was the glorious America's ass not enough for them? Steve was raised in a time where being gay was actually a big deal that could ruin someone's life. It makes sense for him not to be.
 
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That Chris Guy

kiwifarms.net
Sounds more like an insecure millennial who gets triggered by seeing...children? Nuclear families?

God millennial are fucking broken people.
If millennials are this bad, I dread to see what the zoomers are going to manifest themselves as later in life.

But on-topic yeah, Endgame is totally ruined for having a mostly heterosexual (besides whoever they're going to declare a fag in the future) cast. Forget that it's made nearly 2.5 billion in three weeks, the LGBT backlash has ensured it's a write-off, amirite?
 

StarkRavingMad

kiwifarms.net
I love it when these exceptional fans get their fanfiction debunked. lol. The salt is amazing.

What did they expect? Steve had been pining for Peggy since his very first movie. Carried her picture around EVERYWHERE. It ain't like the MCU led anyone on to think otherwise.

Also, I'm sick of these same exceptional fans who think that platonic friendships with anyone can't exist. It's so weird! Do these people lack a certain amount of social skills to the point where they don't know what relationships outside of sexual ones are? Christ, man.
 
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