Avengers: Endgame - This is the end, beautiful friend

Tor Lugosi

kiwifarms.net
They even pushed Steven towards a relationship with Sharon Carter in Winter Solider and Civil War. You'd have to seriously have a sub-70 IQ to think the movies were setting up a relationship between Bucky and Steve or that there was any chance of them otherwise ending up together in the end. I genuinely can't imagine the sort of mental gymnastics these people do to convince themselves of this shit.
 
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CheezzyMach

Hulkamania Brother!
kiwifarms.net
I love it when these exceptional fans get their fanfiction debunked. lol. The salt is amazing.

What did they expect? Steve had been pining for Peggy since his very first movie. Carried her picture around EVERYWHERE. It ain't like the MCU led anyone on to think otherwise.

Also, I'm sick of these same exceptional fans who think that platonic friendships with anyone can't exist. It's so weird! Do these people lack a certain amount of social skills to the point where they don't know what relationships outside of sexual ones are? Christ, man.
These exceptional fans have always existed, the Anime and HP fandoms have been infested with them for decades. What's new and annoying is how they've managed to camouflage their lust as "progressiveness" because of the current zeitgeist and that these PR obsessed corporations keep catering to them.
 

The Nothingness

The one with no body!
kiwifarms.net
Wouldn't the Steve/Tony fans be angry if Steve and Bucky did get together? You can't escape the shipping wars sigh

Age of Ultron has been on cable a lot recently and within the last five minutes, Black Widow made a gay joke about Tony and Steve. It is kind of surprising there was no social media outrage since that movie came out in 2015. Even if it was considered to be lighthearted, I thought any gay joke was considered insensitive 🤷‍♂️
 
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StarkRavingMad

kiwifarms.net
Wouldn't the Steve/Tony fans be angry if Steve and Bucky did get together? You can't escape the shipping wars sigh

Age of Ultron
has been on cable a lot recently and within the last five minutes, Black Widow made a gay joke about Tony and Steve. It is kind of surprising there was no social media outrage since that movie came out in 2015. Even if it was considered to be lighthearted, I thought any gay joke was considered insensitive 🤷‍♂️
There was PLENTY of outrage involving Black Widow in Age of Ultron, but not with that line.

When Natasha told Bruce she was infertile due to a procedure done to her in the Red Room, she explained how not being able to have children made it easier for her to kill people back in the day. Then, she said, "Still think you're the only monster around here?"

Feminists went APESHIT over that line, because they were all like "so is Marvel saying that women who don't have children are monsters?!" and it was the dumbest thing ever. If anyone was paying any attention to the movie, they would realize that Natasha's choice was TAKEN AWAY from her, therefore it made it easier for her to kill.

Also, since I rewatched the film again a few weeks ago (in preparation for Endgame), I noticed that SEVERAL of the characters say the word, "monster," throughout the movie. There's definitely a theme in the movie, about how the heroes view themselves and each other.

Anyway, "Woke Twitter" eviscerated Joss Whedon over how he handled Black Widow in Age of Ultron ... To the point where he actually disabled his Twitter and social media for a while ... Only to come back to social media being one of the cringiest virtue signal-ers ever. lol.
 

Tor Lugosi

kiwifarms.net
That Age of Ultron controversy (like all such controversies) was exceptional. Natasha thought of herself as a monster due to be trained and physically altered to become an efficient killing machine, with the scene (iirc ) having snippets of flashbacks showing her having to kill as part of her training at a young age. It wasn't just that she was sterile, it was that she was forcibly sterilized so she'd be better at killing.

What Black Widow actually said:
In the Red Room where I was trained, where I was raised, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?

What woke blue-checkmarks heard:
[...] sterilize [...] monster [...]

Still, it's always amusing to see people get bit by the far-left dog they constantly feed.
 
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That Chris Guy

kiwifarms.net
That Age of Ultron controversy (like all such controversies) was exceptional. Natasha thought of herself as a monster due to be trained and physically altered to become an efficient killing machine, with the scene (iirc ) having snippets of flashbacks showing her having to kill as part of her training at a young age. It wasn't just that she was sterile, it was that she was forcibly sterilized so she'd be better at killing.

What Black Widow actually said:
In the Red Room where I was trained, where I was raised, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?

What woke bluechecks heard:
[...] sterilize [...] monster [...]

Still, it's always amusing to see people get bit by the far-left dog they constantly feed.
I always thought that exchange was just plain stupid, but not once did I think it was sexist. Outrage is the only response they get off too though if their very specific scenario isn't met; there's no simple disagreements when you have a soapbox you can stand on.
 
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jellycar

Actually Patty Hearst/Fake Jan Brady
kiwifarms.net
The irony about her AoU line to Bruce?


She was going to be running an orphanage post time jump.

Whatever. I'm sad about her development but I'm excited for the prequel. Baded on what Red Skull said we'll see her dad Ivan and also what happened in Budapest.
 

Beluga

Just a little white whale on the go
kiwifarms.net
Finally watched it yesterday and I thought it was pretty good but... My dudes.... 3 FUCKING HOURS?! I don't have the stamina anymore man, give me back the times where a film lasted 2 hours tops!
 

Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Was it ever explained why he stopped wearing his Nazi uniform?
If you assume Red Skull was transported to Vormir at the end of First Avenger, he would've been farting around on that planet for roughly 70 years. While the Nazis may have had some world class tailors in their ranks, I doubt even the best made uniform would survive 70 years of daily use.
 

The Shadow

Talk to the Hand
kiwifarms.net
Thinking of seeing Endgame blind (last non GotG Marvel I saw was...Thor 1? Avengers 1? I don't even know which came first) if I can get up early enough for a matinee tomorrow. On a scale of 1-Battlefield Earth how fucking confused am I going to be?
 
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Duncan Hills Coffee

Awakes you from a thousand deaths
kiwifarms.net
Thinking of seeing Endgame blind (last non GotG Marvel I saw was...Thor 1? Avengers 1? I don't even know which came first) if I can get up early enough for a matinee tomorrow. On a scale of 1-Battlefield Earth how fucking confused am I going to be?
I haven't seen Endgame yet (which is ironic since I created this thread), but I will tell you that I didn't see Thor 3 so the first 20 minutes of Infinity War was confusing as hell.

If you haven't even seen Infinity War, you're gonna get lost.
 
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The Shadow

Talk to the Hand
kiwifarms.net
I haven't seen Endgame yet (which is ironic since I created this thread), but I will tell you that I didn't see Thor 3 so the first 20 minutes of Infinity War was confusing as hell.

If you haven't even seen Infinity War, you're gonna get lost.
I like the idea of having a completely different viewing experience from the rest of the audience. I'm just hoping I'm not bored by it more than anything.
 

One Man Bland

kiwifarms.net


How the straight agenda ruined ‘Avengers: Endgame’


Avengers: Endgame may be the straightest Marvel movie to date; an impressive feat considering the amount of attention paid to its blink-and-you’ll-miss-it gay cameo.

It’s not exactly news that the MCU is dominated by straight, white men, both on-screen and off. By focusing on the original Avengers team, Endgame highlighted the lack of diversity in Marvel’s earlier years —and illustrated how queer storytelling is more complicated than just showing (or not showing) a gay character on-screen. Basically, this film’s conception of a “happy ending“ is so rooted in heteronormativity that it ruined the final act for several key characters.

For most of the Avengers, Endgame’s conclusion was as much about embracing a conventional nuclear family as it was about defeating Thanos. Tony Stark dies, but not before settling down as a husband and father. Steve Rogers goes back in time and marries Peggy Carter, an idea that makes no emotional sense for reasons I’ll explain in a moment. Hawkeye returns peacefully to his family after spending five years on a killing spree. Ant-Man and the Wasp curl up with his now-teenage daughter.

Meanwhile, Thor (who doesn’t have a girlfriend) ends his rather downbeat arc by ceding his crown to Valkyrie. Rhodey and Bruce, our other two bachelors, don’t really get endings of their own, focusing instead on their grief for Tony. Black Widow, as many fans have pointed out, doesn’t get a proper send-off.

For Black Widow (and the film’s other female lead, Nebula), there’s an argument to be made that Endgame’s writers can’t handle a happy ending for a woman without heterosexual romance. Natasha Romanov probably died because Scarlett Johansson wants to leave the franchise after her solo movie, but the way Endgame handled her departure was disappointing. Following a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse, both she and Nebula end up killing themselves for the greater good.

Black Widow, Hawkeye, and the nuclear family
Thanks to being written by multiple writers over multiple films, Black Widow has an uneven role in the MCU. Captain America: The Winter Soldier is probably her best movie, portraying her as a veteran spy with a dry sense of humor. Age of Ultron is her worst, with Joss Whedon introducing the wildly sexist idea that Natasha sees herself as a monster because she’s infertile, and therefore she can’t have a relationship with Bruce Banner. This subplot arrived at the same time as Hawkeye’s thinly characterized family, whose main role was to reboot Clint Barton as an everyman dad.

As critic Clarkisha Kent points out in this excellent Twitter thread, Natasha’s inability to have children foreshadowed her expendability in Endgame. Natasha sacrifices herself so Hawkeye can return to his family, an idea that has no emotional reward because we don’t know Hawkeye’s family.



Unlike Pepper Potts or Ant-Man’s daughter Cassie, who have memorable roles, Hawkeye’s wife and kids are cardboard cutouts who get fridged so he can have a homicidal makeover. While the other (childless) Avengers respond to Thanos’ Snap on a macro level, Hawkeye’s reaction is keenly personal and much more extreme: he becomes a serial killer. Yet instead of setting him up for redemption (ie. by sacrificing himself on Vormir), we’re expected to forget this killing spree once he reunites with his family. Like most of the happy endings in Endgame, this reunion is viewed from the man’s perspective, with wives and children providing solace after men return from battle.

Despite the film’s celebration of friendship and teamwork, its ending downplays the role of “found family” relationships. The Avengers are the closest thing Natasha has to a family, and Steve Rogers’ most enduring relationship is with Bucky Barnes, but these don’t fit into a heteronormative image of a family, so Endgame erases them.

Marvel’s battle against queer subtext
While there aren’t any openly LGBTQ Avengers, the MCU full of queer subtext that fans have discussed for years. Valkyrie is clearly bisexual. Captain Marvel and her friend Maria can easily be read as a couple. And then there’s Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, one of the greatest love stories—platonic or otherwise—in the franchise.

Bucky is the emotional cornerstone of the Captain America trilogy. Each film sees Steve rebel against authority for the sake of Bucky’s wellbeing, escalating from disobeying orders in WWII, to becoming an international fugitive in Civil War. But while this intense friendship coexists easily with Steve and Peggy’s romance in the first two movies, things go off the rails after The Winter Soldier. From then on, Marvel gets antsy about giving Steve and Bucky too much screentime together. Civil War gave Steve an unconvincing new love-interest, and the last two Avengers movies take pains to keep him and Bucky apart, avoiding the kind of crowd-pleasing reunion we see between characters with much less personal history.

Steve/Bucky is the most popular ship in MCU fandom; something that’s reached the mainstream conversation around these movies. In response, Endgame feels like Marvel attempting to no-homo its way out of Steve and Bucky’s image as a romantic couple. It’s the narrative equivalent of that “two bros chillin’ in a hot tub, five feet apart cuz they’re not gay” meme. First, Bucky went back into cryostasis after Civil War, removing himself once again from Steve’s life. Then Infinity Warkept them apart, followed by Endgameemphasizing Steve’s old love for Peggy. This culminates in a sequence where Steve barely acknowledges Bucky’s return from the dead, and then abandons him with no warning to start a new life in the past.

Steve’s marriage to Peggy is meant to be a satisfying conclusion, allowing Chris Evans to gracefully bow out of the franchise. But in addition to making no sense (the writers and directors can’t even agree on whether Steve ends up in an alternate universe or stays in the same timeline), this ending obliterates years of character development. It’s a great example of how heteronormative expectations can hurt a story. Canonically, Steve and Bucky are straight. Yet they’re not perceived as straight enough until Steve breaks off his friendship with Bucky, and returns to a woman he kissed five movies ago.

In a post-film interview, Endgame’s writers framed Peggy as a reward Steve deserved after years of toil. By contrast, they describe Steve and Bucky as being “healthy” enough to “move on” from each other after Endgame, as if that’s something either character would want or need. Steve’s desire to reunite with Bucky is one of the main driving forces of his life. Meanwhile, in The Winter Soldier, it’s Peggy who Steve needs to move on from. Their love story was cut short by circumstance, but Peggy ultimately built a life for herself, married someone else, and had kids.

As one of the most beloved women in the MCU, fans always responded to Peggy’s independence, which is why it’s so dispiritingto see her become the silent receptacle for Steve’s happy ending. We’re also expected to believe that Peggy would marry Future Steve (a near-stranger) while her own Steve is still frozen in the Arctic ice… and that Future Steve would abandon “his” Bucky in 2023. This epilogue erases much of Steve’s personal journey, removes Peggy Carter’s agency, and destroys any chance of closure for Steve and Bucky.

The idea that Marvel intentionally mothballed Steve and Bucky’s relationship is a conspiracy theory, but it’s a conspiracy theory I can easily believe. When fans pick up on queer subtext in this kind of media property, creators often react by trying to dial things back, either by marrying off one of the characters or by separating them. The problem is, Steve and Bucky’s friendship is the lynchpin of their franchise. If you try to tone it down to avoid gay subtext, you’re shooting your own story in the foot.

At the very least, writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely misunderstood the arc they set up in earlier films. The result is a clash between their desire for a heteronormative ending and the reality of the queer-coded friendship between Steve and Bucky. As Rotem Rusak points out in the comics blog Bam Smack Pow, Bucky already fulfilled the love interest role in Steve’s narrative, repeatedly cast as a vulnerable figure at the center of Steve’s emotional universe. After creating this compelling love story in earlier films, Markus and McFeely tripped over themselves trying to downplay Bucky’s importance in Endgame. “There is such a deep intimacy between Steve and Bucky,” writes Rusak. “Such a powerful love and an intensity of loss, that if they are together, they must express it, and that expression is taboo. For the fans to like it, is taboo. And the only way to deal with it is to separate them.“

So in the end, enforced straightness won out, regardless of whether it made sense for any of the characters involved.

When fans campaign for queer representation, a common response is that queer characters shouldn’t be “forced” into stories “for no reason.” Conservatives argue that franchises like Marvel shouldn’t just introduce queer characters “for the sake of it.” Obviously, that’s nonsense, but if we ever needed an example of romance and sexuality being forced unnaturally into an existing story, it’s Avengers: Endgame. Obsessed with traditional family values, this film derailed several of its main character arcs to make way for incoherent and offensive endings.
D-did they miss the entire segment where it's made explicitly clear that Hawkeye's post-IW killing spree is specifically targeting human traffickers, rapists, and major criminal figureheads? I mean you can argue the ethics of that, but this article makes it out like the guy's driving around in an unmarked van pulling randys off the street to make dresses out of their skin. And if you're going to argue ethics then Widow's past is basically full of much worse shit since it's been alluded to that she murdered indiscriminately, killed children, and who knows what else. I'd argue that's kinda what makes Natasha's sacrifice work for the most part. Would it have maybe been stronger with a Black Widow movie? Probably, provided it wasn't shit, but shoulda coulda woulda.

Also where the hell does the author get "writers can’t handle a happy ending for a woman without heterosexual romance" from Endgame? Last I checked the vast majority of them don't have a partner by the end - at least none that weren't already established. The only one that really ends that is Peggy, and the movies have been going in that direction since the start. And I can't help but notice that the protests of Bucky being "sidelined" as Steve's closest relationship end as soon as anyone points out Steve passed on the torch to Sam instead of Bucky. Almost like they don't care about Bucky outside of fap fodder or pushing a specific shipping-fueled agenda.

Bucky and Steve were never going to touch butts like in your fanfics. Get over it.
 
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Anonymous For This

Flying pierogis at vienna.
kiwifarms.net
Saw it. It was okay. The end battle was dumb. A giant alien spacecraft is parked in US air space and just blew the ever living fuck out of SHIELD headquarters, but no response from the US military. K.

Then Dr. Strange shows up and teleports in only the important characters and their factions. Bucky shows up and tears shit up with an M249. If only Dr. Strange had magicked in a few companies of Army or Marine infantry. Instead he plays with water.
 
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