Better Call Saul -

AnOminous

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This is also what is meant by subverting audience expectation. Not delivering a piece of shit when they expected something good.

Not a single tension was resolved by this episode. In fact, all of them are now intensified.

And how the fuck is the most intense part of the episode Saul realizing KIM has gone too far? How the fuck is that even a possible thing? Fuck you Vince Gilligan.

Also fuck you Mike. When you say shit is going to happen, it better happen. And there you were, saying shit was going to happen and it didn't. You wrinkly ballsack face motherfucker. How dare you lead Saul on like that?

Still, this is a brilliant connection to how their relationship is later in Breaking Bad. There always seemed to be this mystery as to why someone like Saul and someone like Mike even were related at all, and now we know how they got there. I loved how Mike reacted to Saul demanding answers, after realizing he couldn't just murder him like he usually does. And he finished with an incredibly eloquent sigh.
 
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AnOminous

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My favorite part of this episode is when they introduce some goon in the Salamanca compound and go to the concertina wire. And then, there's this absolutely beautiful moment. It's about 8 minutes 10 seconds in. It's just a shot of some concertina wire, and the focus shifts for a second or two.
 
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Gangster Talk

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I like that they've managed to trick people who have been watching the continuity in Breaking Bad. The status quo in Breaking Bad inevitably spoils some details in the prequel, obviously the lives of Saul, Gus, Mike, etc. are in no plot danger. Two scenes supposedly spoiled the end of the cartel plotlines, before tonight.
When Walt and Jesse kidnap Saul, he yells "It wasn't me, it was Ignacio!" and is relieved that they weren't hired by someone named Lalo.
Gus tells Hector that he's the last Salamanca alive.
So previously, we thought that:
Saul knows Nacho did something bad, but believes Lalo might still be alive. However, Gus knows that Lalo is dead.
But as of right now:
Gus and Saul both mistakenly believe Lalo is dead. In Breaking Bad, Saul knows Nacho did something bad and may be aware that Lalo is alive.
 

Bender

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Honestly this wait for the next series is gonna be painful.

Fantastic episode, IMO, it was full of tension and I was expecting Nacho to just get offed when he opened that gate and the armed guys were outside. Then I was expecting him to run into Lalo when he got out of the compound, and get offed then.

Kimmy is slipping farther than Jimmy and I don't like it, she was basically his moral compass. I'm thinking either Saul's either gonna leave her for her own good, or they stay together and Kim is working behind the scenes in Breaking Bad to make the donation scheme work and other stuff like that, given her knowledge of business law.

ETA:
There's no way Lalo would've died there. In the second episode of Breaking Bad Saul is fucking terrified about the prospect of Lalo's men coming after him, he has to know the hit didn't work out.
 

AnOminous

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ETA:
There's no way Lalo would've died there. In the second episode of Breaking Bad Saul is fucking terrified about the prospect of Lalo's men coming after him, he has to know the hit didn't work out.
Not necessarily true. He could think Lalo is dead but know that Lalo would have told others about his involvement in whatever it was. I'm actually glad Lalo isn't dead because it would be almost against the grain of the series for someone this formidable just to get killed by some mooks. Just the idea of Juan Bolsa killing him bugged me. The guy is a throwaway loser whose name is literally "John Bag."
 

Bender

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Not necessarily true. He could think Lalo is dead but know that Lalo would have told others about his involvement in whatever it was. I'm actually glad Lalo isn't dead because it would be almost against the grain of the series for someone this formidable just to get killed by some mooks. Just the idea of Juan Bolsa killing him bugged me. The guy is a throwaway loser whose name is literally "John Bag."
He literally asks "did Lalo send you?" in the second episode of Breaking Bad. If Lalo does die (and he will, because Gus tells Hector the Salamanca bloodline ends with him), why would Saul be so scared of him and blame Nacho for everything so many years later?

I agree with you that it's best Lalo is alive, his charisma is fucking astounding.
 

AnOminous

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He literally asks "did Lalo send you?" in the second episode of Breaking Bad. If Lalo does die (and he will, because Gus tells Hector the Salamanca bloodline ends with him), why would Saul be so scared of him and blame Nacho for everything so many years later?

I agree with you that it's best Lalo is alive, his charisma is fucking astounding.
The general portrayal of the Salamancas is why I go apeshit on idiots who go into some woke spiel about how Breaking Bad is racist or some shit. None of the Salamancas are just one dimensional stereotypes. These are ridiculously complex characters with family relationships that are on the level of what you associate with films like the first two Godfather films. And never mind a character like Gus Fring, who you still don't completely understand. How is this guy a racist stereotype? He's the smartest guy in the entire series. He was smarter than Walt, a supposed Nobel level genius.
 

Bender

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The general portrayal of the Salamancas is why I go apeshit on idiots who go into some woke spiel about how Breaking Bad is racist or some shit. None of the Salamancas are just one dimensional stereotypes. These are ridiculously complex characters with family relationships that are on the level of what you associate with films like the first two Godfather films. And never mind a character like Gus Fring, who you still don't completely understand. How is this guy a racist stereotype? He's the smartest guy in the entire series. He was smarter than Walt, a supposed Nobel level genius.
Walt was luckier, every single time. He honestly shouldn't've made it to Felina, he just got lucky.
 

AnOminous

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When did you realize Walt was an absolute piece of shit? I can't believe the level of slack I cut this worthless motherfucker, over and over again. I was late on the Walt hate train, even after he did utterly unforgivable shit like letting Jane die and, even worse, poisoning Brock. That was more or less the breaking point but I still let it slide.

It took killing Mike for no fucking rational reason at all for me to hate his guts completely. Mike's explanation to him of exactly why he sucked and was a complete piece of shit was too much for him to cope with. Ironically, some parts of that speech were actually unfair and not right, but the general gist of it was completely correct.

Walt didn't go into that scene intending to kill Mike, because if he had, Mike would have killed him instead. Mike didn't even consider Walt would do something that pointlessly stupid and evil.
 

Bender

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When did you realize Walt was an absolute piece of shit? I can't believe the level of slack I cut this worthless motherfucker, over and over again. I was late on the Walt hate train, even after he did utterly unforgivable shit like letting Jane die and, even worse, poisoning Brock. That was more or less the breaking point but I still let it slide.
I think I realised it at the shop with the "stay out of my territory" line. That's the part where it seemed to me he wasn't enjoying the cooking meth, but the power he had.

Edit: I definitely realised it when he ran over those drug dealers and capped one point-blank.
It took killing Mike for no fucking rational reason at all for me to hate his guts completely. Mike's explanation to him of exactly why he sucked and was a complete piece of shit was too much for him to cope with. Ironically, some parts of that speech were actually unfair and not right, but the general gist of it was completely correct.
That certainly was a fucked-up moment, but I'm honestly surprised you didn't think he was an irredeemable piece of shit far earlier than that, TBH.
Walt didn't go into that scene intending to kill Mike, because if he had, Mike would have killed him instead. Mike didn't even consider Walt would do something that pointlessly stupid and evil.
I agree, Walt did something reckless and off-the-cuff, which Mike didn't see coming. He really should've though, because Walt was acting recklessly throughout the whole show.
 
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AnOminous

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I think I realised it at the shop with the "stay out of my territory" line. That's the part where it seemed to me he wasn't enjoying the cooking meth, but the power he had.
I made excuses for him. Also there he was, a rising drug lord, and someone was fucking with his turf. So he flexed a bit. You could realize he was an asshole at that point, but was he completely, irredeemably evil? If you watch the show again from the start, knowing everything you already know after watching it all, you realize he was actually a complete piece of shit from the beginning, but you didn't know that then.
 

Bender

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I made excuses for him. Also there he was, a rising drug lord, and someone was fucking with his turf. So he flexed a bit. You could realize he was an asshole at that point, but was he completely, irredeemably evil? If you watch the show again from the start, knowing everything you already know after watching it all, you realize he was actually a complete piece of shit from the beginning, but you didn't know that then.
I've got a grain of sand in my hand, would you call that a pile? I've added one more grain of sand, is it a pile now? I've added one more grain of sand, is it a pile now? And so on.

It's the same kind of thing, you can't say when those grains of sand become a pile, like there's no singular moment you can decisively say Walt turns evil.

Rewatching it I find myself thinking he was always evil and was looking for a reason, or a catalyst, for him to break out of his boring life and do something that actually excited him. I guess I'd say he flipped and became irredeemable after the drug bust he went on with Hank.
 
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Stuck in Corners

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And never mind a character like Gus Fring, who you still don't completely understand. How is this guy a racist stereotype?
Cause he's a black guy selling loads of drugs who owns fried chicken establishment as a front; but the way he was introduced and how his character was portrayed overshadowed it. He was involved in his community, donated to the DEA fun run, established corporate connections with Madrigal, and calm and emotionally strongholded. Overall he was the highest standard of what a philanthropist, entrepreneur/kingpin is on the show.

As for the stereotype, i think it was unintentional for the writers to add that he owns a chicken restaurant.
 
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When did you realize Walt was an absolute piece of shit? I can't believe the level of slack I cut this worthless motherfucker, over and over again. I was late on the Walt hate train, even after he did utterly unforgivable shit like letting Jane die and, even worse, poisoning Brock. That was more or less the breaking point but I still let it slide.

It took killing Mike for no fucking rational reason at all for me to hate his guts completely. Mike's explanation to him of exactly why he sucked and was a complete piece of shit was too much for him to cope with. Ironically, some parts of that speech were actually unfair and not right, but the general gist of it was completely correct.

Walt didn't go into that scene intending to kill Mike, because if he had, Mike would have killed him instead. Mike didn't even consider Walt would do something that pointlessly stupid and evil.
When Walt watched Jane die. If he wanted to get Jessie away from Jane he could have saved her and then manipulate Jessie into leaving her. Walt wants to be that subtle manipulator that controls through fear. He probably thought that saving Jane would make Jessie hesitate about using heroin, but her death would put a stop to it. Part of me wonders if Walt was a bit pleased that the 737's crash was the result of his actions.
 

Stuck in Corners

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I think it was actually intentional for him to fall into a stereotypical role and then be an actual genius.
If it was, that would be kinda scummy, it just subtle things like that rubs me off the wrong way. You could have him own an italian restaurant or a Taco joint and his character would've still had popularity. I wonder if Giancarlo Esposito ever took slight notice into that jab.
 

UnKillFill

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When did you realize Walt was an absolute piece of shit? I can't believe the level of slack I cut this worthless motherfucker, over and over again. I was late on the Walt hate train, even after he did utterly unforgivable shit like letting Jane die and, even worse, poisoning Brock. That was more or less the breaking point but I still let it slide.
I wasn't mad, at Walt or even in general, when Jane died. She was a stupid selfish hole, and even ignoring the *actual* danger that her selfishness posed to Walt, she dragged Jesse down to a spot much lower than he had ever been before he met her. At the time of her death, I would even go so far as to say that she was a worse person than Walt was in my eyes. (That obviously changed later, but I'm getting ahead of myself.)

As far as I'm concerned Jane basically killed herself, and I don't blame Walt for not saving her stupid ass when he could have. The resulting plane crash because Q couldn't cope with Jane's death wasn't Walt's fault either.

Poisoning Brock was a *major* step too far, but I still at least *understood* why Walt did it, and he may have legitimately had no other good options at the time.

It took killing Mike for no fucking rational reason at all for me to hate his guts completely. Mike's explanation to him of exactly why he sucked and was a complete piece of shit was too much for him to cope with. Ironically, some parts of that speech were actually unfair and not right, but the general gist of it was completely correct.

Walt didn't go into that scene intending to kill Mike, because if he had, Mike would have killed him instead. Mike didn't even consider Walt would do something that pointlessly stupid and evil.
You know, I don't think I had ever really thought about the answer to the original question you asked before you asked it tonight. Now I want to go back through and watch all of BB again to get the exact answer, but killing Mike is not by any means a bad answer. (I remember Walt himself even admitting that killing Mike was pointless after the fact.) But like @Bender said, I do feel like it was earlier than that.


For an easier question, when was the first time you realized that Skyler was an absolute piece of shit? (I hated her almost from the beginning. And even Walt becoming evil didn't change that, I would though say that she significantly contributed to Walt getting more evil even quicker than he would have.)

While I was typing that, I had a fun thought... What if Walt had Kim for a wife instead of Skyler? I dare say that things would have gone at least a *little* bit better for him, especially if it was post-Season 5 BCS Kim. Yeah, I know the time line is all fucked then, but still a fun thought.
 

Lensherr

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The general portrayal of the Salamancas is why I go apeshit on idiots who go into some woke spiel about how Breaking Bad is racist or some shit. None of the Salamancas are just one dimensional stereotypes. These are ridiculously complex characters with family relationships that are on the level of what you associate with films like the first two Godfather films. And never mind a character like Gus Fring, who you still don't completely understand. How is this guy a racist stereotype? He's the smartest guy in the entire series. He was smarter than Walt, a supposed Nobel level genius.
I don’t mean to shit up this thread with politics, but it seems like ever since Trump got elected, SJWs automatically brand any piece of media depicting Mexican/Latin American drug cartels as an antagonistic force as racist. Thank God Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould have the artistic integrity to not cave in to those sanctimonious pricks.
When did you realize Walt was an absolute piece of shit? I can't believe the level of slack I cut this worthless motherfucker, over and over again. I was late on the Walt hate train, even after he did utterly unforgivable shit like letting Jane die and, even worse, poisoning Brock. That was more or less the breaking point but I still let it slide.

It took killing Mike for no fucking rational reason at all for me to hate his guts completely. Mike's explanation to him of exactly why he sucked and was a complete piece of shit was too much for him to cope with. Ironically, some parts of that speech were actually unfair and not right, but the general gist of it was completely correct.

Walt didn't go into that scene intending to kill Mike, because if he had, Mike would have killed him instead. Mike didn't even consider Walt would do something that pointlessly stupid and evil.
Would you say that that’s at least partially the result of your evident man-crush on Jonathan Banks (don’t blame you personally)?
 
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