Better Call Saul -

Iron Hamster

Calculated chaos
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I don’t mean to shit up this thread with politics, but it seems like ever since Trump got elected, SJWs automatically brand any piece of media depicting Mexican/Latin American drug cartels as an antagonistic force as racist. Thank God Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould have the artistic integrity to not cave in to those sanctimonious pricks.

Would you say that that’s at least partially the result of your evident man-crush on Jonathan Banks (don’t blame you personally)?
Wasn't there some outrage over making the Sons spinoff about the Mayans?
 

Someone in a Tree

It's the ripple, not the sea that is happening
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The general portrayal of the Salamancas is why I go apeshit on idiots who go into some woke spiel about how Breaking Bad is racist or some shit. None of the Salamancas are just one dimensional stereotypes. These are ridiculously complex characters with family relationships that are on the level of what you associate with films like the first two Godfather films. And never mind a character like Gus Fring, who you still don't completely understand. How is this guy a racist stereotype? He's the smartest guy in the entire series. He was smarter than Walt, a supposed Nobel level genius.
The people who make those kind of complaints are the same people who can’t allow their entertainment to have any ambiguity or nuance. They need clearly defined roles because they try to break everything down into those who think the right way and those who don’t. That’s why they retreat to children’s cartoons and can only liken real world events to Harry Potter shit.
 

AnOminous

Really?
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For an easier question, when was the first time you realized that Skyler was an absolute piece of shit? (I hated her almost from the beginning. And even Walt becoming evil didn't change that, I would though say that she significantly contributed to Walt getting more evil even quicker than he would have.)
Skyler actually grew on me as the series went on. Not because she actually got any better but because her motivations were clearly more rational and she was protecting herself and her children from an increasingly insane and dangerous man. I first realized she was an absolute piece of shit when she served that hideous fake bacon in the first episode. Anyone who would serve a man shit like that on his 50th birthday is terrible.

Oh shit, I actually forgot about the dude blackmailing(?) SaulGene at the beginning of the season. Yeah, what's going to happen there? haha.
Saul said he'd handle that one on his own. I don't have much optimism for that guy's future.
 

AnOminous

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Also, the twist is... it's actually a cooking show.
I like how every Salamanca is proud of his cooking ability. Even Tuco calms the fuck down when he's making burritos.

You know who doesn't cook? That piece of shit Walter White. Ironically, because he is "the cook."

Also on the general subject of Skyler, I think she took at least somewhat more shit than she deserved. Yes, she was kind of a bitch, she was barely more ethical than Walt himself, and did some pretty atrocious things in her own right. But she was set up from the beginning to contrast to Walt and basically harsh his buzz. Everything she was doing, though, was in reaction to being married to this fuckwad of a human in the first place, at least if you subtract out basic irresponsible shit like smoking while pregnant. Wtf Skyler?

Subtracting that out, though, she had stood by Walt for decades despite this utter genius completely squandering his talent and making nothing of himself, and being pretty much a bitter, useless asshole despite having no excuse at all for what an entitled cunt he was. If you ever go back and watch BB from the beginning, knowing what you don't know until the end, you realize Walt was always a fucking prick. Everything in his life that seemed unjust, like he was a deserving genius who had somehow been cheated by the world, was his own fault.

From Grey Matter on. You get introduced to that from Walt's perspective and it looks like they indeed ripped off this genius of his creation and then went on to make billions off his work, when really nothing of the sort is true. Walt threw that away out of some completely autistic resentment about shit that, while it's never completely explained, was obviously a mystery to everyone else involved. Especially re-watch the episode with the party where they try to help Walt. It looks, at the time, as if he is pridefully refusing their help for some honorable reason, and particularly that they're trying to salve their consciences over having ripped him off, but in the light of what you know later, he is actually just being a complete fucking prick.

Anyway, Skyler had to cope with all this bullshit from Walt for all their life together, stuck with him, and while not perfect herself by any means, was not motivated nearly purely by malice and resentment.

He still loves her even at the end, and one of the only things that at least partly redeemed him at the end was that heartbreaking speech where he finally admits he did all the shit he did for himself because he liked it. She really, really needed to hear that and Walt, on his way to hell, finally just told her the fucking truth. It was the only kind thing he could do for her.

Also, Anna Gunn is a phenomenal actress and her portrayal of this complex, often less than sympathetic character is one of the best parts of the show. I found myself going back and forth between being sympathetic to Skyler and despising her, sometimes at the same time.
 
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StrawberryDouche

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That certainly was a fucked-up moment, but I'm honestly surprised you didn't think he was an irredeemable piece of shit far earlier than that, TBH.
For me, Walt was never irredeemable. I can't pinpoint the exact moment I started to hate him. It might have been when the Schwartz's offered him money and medical benefits when Skylar was pregnant, but his ego wouldn't allow it. That scene definitely planted the seeds of disdain for me. The only hope I had for the end of the series, the one thing I needed as a participant in this universe, was for Walter to find a modicum of redemption. He did.

But that's one of the driving themes of BB and BCS-- that there are endless opportunities for redemption, and nothing is deterministic when free will is a given. Only death can nail the door shut. The only exception to that I think is Hector. God, I hate Hector. I'm convinced there is no backstory that could make me sympathetic to him.

For an easier question, when was the first time you realized that Skyler was an absolute piece of shit? (I hated her almost from the beginning. And even Walt becoming evil didn't change that, I would though say that she significantly contributed to Walt getting more evil even quicker than he would have.)
I never thought Skylar was a piece of shit. The writers really, really understood why and how people operate within toxic relationships and why they stay in them. I always found her sympathetic UNTIL she suggested Walt kill Jesse. Then she regained it when Walt kidnapped the baby. There isn't a single character in this story that is less than complex and deeply drawn. Skylar is no exception.

I'm with you on Jane, though.
 

StrawberryDouche

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So far I haven't seen anybody comment on the fucking zinger Howard threw at Kim.

"You know who really knew Jimmy? Chuck."
Kim is a deeply internalized person and considers herself a bit of an unreadable cipher, and I think the thing that pisses her off the most is when people see her inner workings and speak them out loud. You saw it recently with Schweikart, and now with Howard.
 
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Bender

I bend the truth.
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Kim is a deeply internalized person and considers herself a bit of an unreadable cipher, and I think the thing that pisses her off the most is when people see her inner workings and speak them out loud. You saw it recently with Schweikart, and now with Howard.
And with Jimmy, he told her framing Howard is going way too far and it just seemed to make her want to do it more.

ETA: He got what he wanted, in the Monkey's Paw sense. He wanted a partner he could con people with, but he didn't expect her to enjoy it so much.
 
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iRON-mAn

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I think Howard was out of line for approaching Kim anyway. Yes, Saul was being childish and petty by throwing bowling balls and sending prostitutes to his lunch meeting, but he has zero context for her leaving Schweikart to do Pro Bono, so to assume it's all Jimmy's fault is just kind of silly. Howard and Saul have a similar way of thinking, in that neither can really believe she'd give up the Mesa Verde money, but Kim hasn't been happy working that account since season 2. Even though he walked away from Saul, him approaching Kim just felt like he was taking a different angle, when he should have just stayed out of it. At this point, it's none of his business.

He's wrong about Chuck knowing Jimmy best too. Chuck was so obsessed with Jimmy's flaws that he genuinely couldn't be happy even when his brother did something good or right. But Kim is kind of the other side of that coin. She knows that Jimmy can be good, so she follows him down the rabbit hole, going along with the schemes and the Saul change. It's true she seems to get off on it now, but she would never have indulged herself if she hadn't indulged Jimmy first, and she only did that because she can see the good in him, which Chuck never could.
 
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AnOminous

Really?
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I think Howard was out of line for approaching Kim anyway. Yes, Saul was being childish and petty by throwing bowling balls and sending prostitutes to his lunch meeting, but he has zero context for her leaving Schweikart to do Pro Bono, so to assume it's all Jimmy's fault is just kind of silly.
I think he's just super butthurt to be treated that way. And he got no satisfaction out of Saul himself. When he confronted him, he basically admitted it and taunted him about it.

He's wrong about Chuck knowing Jimmy best too. Chuck was so obsessed with Jimmy's flaws that he genuinely couldn't be happy even when his brother did something good or right.
Chuck actually needed Jimmy to be the fuckup so he could be better. This is why he actively sabotaged him. He also never got over the fact that even though Jimmy was a fuckup who had even possibly destroyed their father's business, they still loved him more than they did Chuck. He was still the favorite. Because he was actually likable unlike Chuck.
 

Bender

I bend the truth.
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Chuck actually needed Jimmy to be the fuckup so he could be better. This is why he actively sabotaged him. He also never got over the fact that even though Jimmy was a fuckup who had even possibly destroyed their father's business, they still loved him more than they did Chuck. He was still the favorite. Because he was actually likable unlike Chuck.
I think Chuck needed Jimmy to be a better person so he could take him down a peg. He didn't want to kick his brother while he was down, as shown in the prison lock-up scene with the shitting through the sunroof. Chuck wanted Jimmy to be a better person so when Jimmy's climbing the ladder Chuck can stomp on his hands and make him fall further.

And Jimmy needed Chuck's approval, it's clear from the start he knew he'd never get it, but they were co-dependent. Jimmy needed to care for Chuck as much as Chuck needed the help, and while Chuck got help from Jimmy he never approved of him being a lawyer. The built-up resentment is likely what blinded Jimmy to Chuck's real issues, and vice versa.
 

CausticMinory

Meanie, fat guy, doesn't like nice guys.
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It was probably posted in the thread before because it's so obvious, but what if the reason Kim doesn't appear in Breaking Bad isn't because she died, it's cause she tried to pull a massive com that fucked up her reputation and had to be "Disappeared" by the vacuum guy? Like that'd explain how Saul knows the guy, how he works, and his restrictions without have used it himself previously.


Frankly I'm just hoping Kim doesn't die, but it would be the final push that fully turns Jimmy into Saul forever.
 

Bender

I bend the truth.
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It was probably posted in the thread before because it's so obvious, but what if the reason Kim doesn't appear in Breaking Bad isn't because she died, it's cause she tried to pull a massive com that fucked up her reputation and had to be "Disappeared" by the vacuum guy? Like that'd explain how Saul knows the guy, how he works, and his restrictions without have used it himself previously.


Frankly I'm just hoping Kim doesn't die, but it would be the final push that fully turns Jimmy into Saul forever.
I've been seeing theories that she's in the game during Breaking Bad, and could possibly be the one helping Walt launder money using his son's website (she was in business law, she could launder money). It could make sense if Saul and Kim break up but stay business partners, but I doubt it's gonna go that way.

I think the reason she doesn't appear in BrBa is because Saul realises he's a corrupting influence on her and leaves her before she does anything stupid. As far as I remember she hasn't done any scams on her own, they were always in conjunction with Saul; I think she found it to be a way to get closer to him, by getting interested in his "hobby".
 
It was probably posted in the thread before because it's so obvious, but what if the reason Kim doesn't appear in Breaking Bad isn't because she died, it's cause she tried to pull a massive com that fucked up her reputation and had to be "Disappeared" by the vacuum guy? Like that'd explain how Saul knows the guy, how he works, and his restrictions without have used it himself previously.


Frankly I'm just hoping Kim doesn't die, but it would be the final push that fully turns Jimmy into Saul forever.
I've been on the Kim dies..but not due to anything Jimmy did, but because of an entirely "Legal" entity, thus completely embittering him to "The Law" hence why Saul is so happy to use it to get guilty people off.
 
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