Biological Sex & Gender -

[DevilDog]

Finished a third of this, then Windows took an unexpected update induced restart. If you're reading this Microsoft then fuck you, and your dumb ass restarts.
*DISCLAIMER* This a thread for the discussion of transsexual rights and boundaries. This is NOT a hate rant, nor will it be used as one by participating forumers. This is NOT a discussion on spiritual beliefs regarding transsexualism. Anything detrimentally OT or insensitive and I'm cutting this thread down(or getting a mod to).

Now then, I've been thinking a lot on the subject of transsexualism and the issues surrounding it. I'm going to be forward and say that I have come a long way in terms of tolerance(thanks MLP) and understanding(thanks internet) of the LGBT community, in that I no longer assume gays are pedos or transsexuals are gays who do it for the lulz. But I do think that there are areas where LGBT rights groups are overstepping their bounds. Here are some grey areas I'd like my fellow CWCki forumers to weigh in on.
1: The acceptance of more than two genders. For me, I believe there are two genders. Cisgendered male and female, and transgendered male and female. I don't mean to sound intolerant, I really don't.
2: Transsexual pronouns. Here's my take: No, just no. If you want to be/are a gender different than your physical one, then that's perfectly fine. I have no issues with calling someone him or her on their request. I do however, have a problem with the assertion that we need NEW words to describe a person of unstated gender. They and their work perfectly fine, and using them isn't a violation of human rights.
3:Bathroom usage. LGBT rights groups assert that a person has the right to use the bathroom they feel represents their gender. I don't hold this to be necessarily appropriate. A person should use the bathroom that matches their physical sex. By definition, bathrooms are classified by the physical differences of their occupants, not their "real" gender. Should a person undergo a gender change operation, they would then qualify for their gender's bathroom on the grounds that they have (most of) the physical characteristics of their assumed gender.
What do you think CWCki users?

 

[KatsuKitty]

Now then, I've been thinking a lot on the subject of transsexualism and the issues surrounding it. I'm going to be forward and say that I have come a long way in terms of tolerance(thanks MLP) and understanding(thanks internet) of the LGBT community, in that I no longer assume gays are pedos or transsexuals are gays who do it for the lulz. But I do think that there are areas where LGBT rights groups are overstepping their bounds. Here are some grey areas I'd like my fellow CWCki forumers to weigh in on.
1: The acceptance of more than two genders. For me, I believe there are two genders. Cisgendered male and female, and transgendered male and female. I don't mean to sound intolerant, I really don't.

As of today, "non-binary" genders remain unsubstantiated by medical and psychological evidence, so these individuals really have no basis in berating us because we refuse to believe or acknowledge them. Any radical upending of an established cultural norm must require a factual basis. The propogation and dissemination of "non-binary" literature together with legitimate transgender facts is a very dangerous thing to do, considering how diligently trans people have been fighting for decades to be taken seriously. I challenge you to find a transgender infographic that does not inject the pseudoscientific woo of "genderfluidity", "agender", and "genderqueer" people. Who on earth is going to take the facts on transsexualism seriously when they're peppered with something we can only describe with optimism as "unresearched"?

2: Transsexual pronouns. Here's my take: No, just no. If you want to be/are a gender different than your physical one, then that's perfectly fine. I have no issues with calling someone him or her on their request. I do however, have a problem with the assertion that we need NEW words to describe a person of unstated gender. They and their work perfectly fine, and using them isn't a violation of human rights.

What are "transsexual pronouns"? You mean calling someone who is transitioning to female "she" instead of "he"? I don't think that's too much to ask.

3:Bathroom usage. LGBT rights groups assert that a person has the right to use the bathroom they feel represents their gender. I don't hold this to be necessarily appropriate. A person should use the bathroom that matches their physical sex. By definition, bathrooms are classified by the physical differences of their occupants, not their "real" gender. Should a person undergo a gender change operation, they would then qualify for their gender's bathroom on the grounds that they have (most of) the physical characteristics of their assumed gender.

This always ignites a firestorm of controversy, and is probably the point I disagree with you on.

Quite frankly, I think separating bathrooms by gender is absurd to begin with. The argument against unisex bathrooms appears to hinge on the mistaken belief that every man is a rapist waiting for his decency circuit to trip at the first sight of female nudity. This is a canard that is both endemic and enduring; Phyllis Schlafly (the same woman who doesn't believe spousal rape exists) used this argument quite convincingly in her tirade to stop the Equal Rights Amendment in 1982. But it's ludicrous. I'm extremely flaming in-your-face homo and I do not get hard at anyone in the men's room. One, it smells like shit in there. Two, a great deal of the population is old, physically repulsive, and disgusting. Three, I really just don't give a damn about your naughty bits, and with the way the restroom is set up, nobody is even looking at anyone's naughty bits. If you think I'm talking about something so extreme, there are unisex bathrooms everywhere in Germany without epidemic levels of sexual assault. I do not believe women are such childlike babies and men are such vicious monsters that this issue needs to be brought up time and time again.

You also need to remember that not every transsexual undergoes the operation. These are expensive and dangerous procedures that are (quite ridiculously) not covered by insurance. This is a scientifically vaild mental health condition where people feel varying degrees of discomfort with their birth sex; I would find it quite incredulous to pidgeonhole everyone with this condition into getting surgery, any more than to assume absolutely everyone who suffers a disfiguring accident will feel like the benefits of cosmetic surgery always outweigh the risks and costs. Every case is individual and not every therapist will recommend SRS to every patient with gender dysphoria.

There really is a lot of mystery and ethical questions surrounding such a compartively nascent mental health classification, but if you really do the readup on it as well as use common sense, a lot of transsexual rights issues should be clear-cut.

 

[CatParty]

1. people are people is how i look at it.
2. pronouns should be used as per how the person identifies.
3. unisex bathrooms because we are mature adults. but if society wants to play the separate bathroom game, then you go in the one which you identify. (and besides, only use public restrooms in an emergency because they're disgusting)

 

[Grand Number of Pounds]

2: Transsexual pronouns. Here's my take: No, just no. If you want to be/are a gender different than your physical one, then that's perfectly fine. I have no issues with calling someone him or her on their request. I do however, have a problem with the assertion that we need NEW words to describe a person of unstated gender. They and their work perfectly fine, and using them isn't a violation of human rights.

What are "transsexual pronouns"? You mean calling someone who is transitioning to female "she" instead of "he"? I don't think that's too much to ask.

In the SJ thread in the lolcow forum the SJ's use all kinds of weird pronouns to refer to a transgender person (like xir).

 

[KatsuKitty]

2: Transsexual pronouns. Here's my take: No, just no. If you want to be/are a gender different than your physical one, then that's perfectly fine. I have no issues with calling someone him or her on their request. I do however, have a problem with the assertion that we need NEW words to describe a person of unstated gender. They and their work perfectly fine, and using them isn't a violation of human rights.

What are "transsexual pronouns"? You mean calling someone who is transitioning to female "she" instead of "he"? I don't think that's too much to ask.

In the SJ thread in the lolcow forum the SJ's use all kinds of weird pronouns to refer to a transgender person (like xir).

Oh. That ties in with number 1, they're actually "genderqueer" pronouns. That wouldn't even bug me so much if they could just agree on one damn one. This person is a "ze" while the next is a "they" while too-cool-for-the-room-guy is an "it". This totally defeats the purpose of using a language to convey meaning.

 

[BT 075]

I believe there are men and there are women in this world. And there's a handful of people, too, who are intersexed and neither male nor female and who can therefore identify either way. If you are a man and wish to identify as a woman, or the other way around, by all means do so. I used to simplify things and say people should just stick to what they are born with, as you will never truly be a biological female if you are born a biological male. You won't magically have ovaries, you will rely on medical science and a massive ammount of operations, plastic surgeries and hormone injections. Is it truly worth it? And, admittedly, I was always rather grossed out about the idea that male-to-female transgenders lose their family jewels. I have a rather lively imagination and the whole thing just doesn't sit well with me for whatever reason.

Then I read a bit into the material and read many people are genuinely upset about their gender to the point of considering or actually committing suicide. And some transsexuals are pretty damn well sculpted, really, some surgeons truly are like Michaelangelo's with scalpel and flesh. It's their business and not mine, and in some cases I can't even tell, so why would I mind? I suppose it's the hardest for their parents. Your little girl suddenly turning into a dude... or your proud son and heir to the family name becoming a chick... I can see why people have major issues with that. I would, too, if it happened within my family. Brothers becomes sisters, daughters becoming sons, it's a strange thing.

As for the pronouns, I am okay with calling someone who identifies as female "her" and someone who identifies as male "him". To not do so would be rude and unnecessarily uncivil. Hir\xir\zir\mir and all that bullshit, however, I am not doing. Gotta draw the line somewhere and this is where I draw it. And no, I don't really give crap (no pun intended) what toilet a transgender goes to. Doesn't hurt anyone if a female-to-male tranny takes a dump in the men's room does it?

Live and let live, I suppose. Being a Tomgirl's probably the safest option, as it's less... permanent.

 

[DevilDog]

Like I said, I don't have a problem with referring to anyone by the gender they prefer. But xir or whatever is another unnecessary label, they or he or she are perfectly acceptable. As for the area of bathrooms, in a perfect world, I imagine we'd have unisex bathrooms. But culturally speaking, there is a gender based segregation for bathrooms, on the basis that the majority of people feel uncomfortable using a bathroom with someone of the opposite physical sex. Personally, I wouldn't mind it. But there is a cultural etiquette that should be respected. If transsexuals or anyone else for that matter want unisex bathrooms then by all means let them make a push for that. However, as our culture stands today, bathrooms are segregated by physical characteristics. And disregarding that because of gender dysphoria is inappropriate.

 

[Rio]

2: Transsexual pronouns. Here's my take: No, just no. If you want to be/are a gender different than your physical one, then that's perfectly fine. I have no issues with calling someone him or her on their request. I do however, have a problem with the assertion that we need NEW words to describe a person of unstated gender. They and their work perfectly fine, and using them isn't a violation of human rights.

What are "transsexual pronouns"? You mean calling someone who is transitioning to female "she" instead of "he"? I don't think that's too much to ask.

In the SJ thread in the lolcow forum the SJ's use all kinds of weird pronouns to refer to a transgender person (like xir).

"xir" isn't a transgender pronoun. A transgender person generally likes to be called the pronoun of the gender they identify with. Transgirls want to be called "she," while transmen want to be called "him." I don't think that's too much to ask. I always thought things like "xir" or "ze" kinda came across as special snowflake syndrome. They're not really recognized pronouns. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people identifying themselves as intersexed or genderless or whatever, but you can't really expect everyday people to know pronouns that technically aren't legally recognized as words, much less pronouns.

Also, just a minor thing, but transsexuality isn't an "-ism." -ism is used when referring to things like ideologies, artistic movements or specific practices. Transsexuality is none of those.

 

[Aiko Heiwa]

check your privilege cisscum

im trans i can say this

 

[Trombonista]

Transsexuals are people whose genital proprioception does not match their birth genitalia.

People who identify as non-binary prefer to call themselves trans*.

 

[Picklepower]

1. people are people is how i look at it.
2. pronouns should be used as per how the person identifies.
3. unisex bathrooms because we are mature adults. but if society wants to play the separate bathroom game, then you go in the one which you identify. (and besides, only use public restrooms in an emergency because they're disgusting)

My thoughts exactly. If there is a shitstorm, I'm not gonna get involved, but just know, Catparty took the words right out of my mouth. I think gender is more then just, what you genitals are. I would like to see someone who says gender is strictly based on genitals, wake up in the body of an opposite gender, and then be told, "You are this gender from now on!" that person I suspect, would not enjoy that very much. I don't agree to calling trans people mentally ill, if you call them mentally ill, then why not call homosexuals mentally ill? its not an average condition, but being transgendered does not mean someone is mentally crazed. Lets remember not to let loud groups of idiots on the internet, (the SJWs) define an entire group of people, because if you do that, you might as well assume all black americans are like Lois Farakhans minions.

 

[The Nameless One]

I always heard that the "xe" and "zir" pronouns were attempts to introduce true gender-neutral, grammatically consistent pronouns into English (i.e. no singular "they"). I see them used on a lot of post-academic blogs where people try to keep up their anonymity by referring to their advisers or people in their department with gender-neutral pronouns in order to reduce the risk of someone identifying the author as someone they know.

I don't want unisex bathrooms because I enjoy the cisgender male patriarchal privilege of not ever having to wait in line for 10 minutes to take a pee.

 

[Picklepower]

With the pronoun thing, how many trans people are actually pushing for those? or is that mostly a SJW thing? either way, I don't think its a big deal, I don't think America will turn into a Mad Max,post apocalyptic wasteland if those new pronouns become accepted.

 

[BT 075]

These new pronouns won't be accepted generally. Ever. Because they make transsexual people sound like aliens instead of people and I don't think any sane person would strive for such craziness. If you identify as a dude you want to be "him", if you are a girl it's "her" and if you are unsure or neither, "they". Everything else is simply bullshit to make the person in question feel special. Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[hellbound]

I don't care if somebody wants to change their gender. As in, I honestly don't give a shit. Do what floats your boat, as long as you don't expect me to pay for it. I will neither fight against you nor celebrate you.

If a specific person wants me to refer to them a specific way, then I'll try to do so, but I'm forgetful. I will not use gender-neutral pronouns or clunky constructions like he/she/xe/im/e as a general rule, and I'm pretty sure neither is the vast majority of the population. Languages do evolve, but not that fast and in general not out of a small group's idea of social justice. And if you get pissy because you look like a dude and I call you sir at first, then you can go fuck yourself, but that's more about getting pissy over a mistake in general. Politeness from you gets politeness from me. If I keep fucking up, then you can get mad. Back when I had long hair and no beard, I got called miss a few times, and I'm cismale scum. I sucked it up and so can you.

As far as bathrooms, it's more about respecting others than making demands for yourself. Sure, theoretically there shouldn't be a problem with unisex bathrooms but we as a culture can't seem to wrap our heads around it. So respect the other patrons, have pity on the poor architects, and if you have to use a binary cis scum bathroom, choose the one that best matches what you appear to be.

 

[Burning Love]

3:Bathroom usage. LGBT rights groups assert that a person has the right to use the bathroom they feel represents their gender. I don't hold this to be necessarily appropriate. A person should use the bathroom that matches their physical sex. By definition, bathrooms are classified by the physical differences of their occupants, not their "real" gender. Should a person undergo a gender change operation, they would then qualify for their gender's bathroom on the grounds that they have (most of) the physical characteristics of their assumed gender.

This is the one I'll never understand. Trans people hate their natural parts (except non-ops, who just kind of deal with it while knowing it's wrong), why should anyone be concerned which bathroom they use? A transwoman is going to go into the women's bathroom and be as discreet as possible. You'll not find a transwoman going into the women's room and flashing her penis everywhere. If she goes to the men's room, however, she's being put directly in danger. It happens all the time. Trans people aren't the danger, they are in danger!

If someone lives every day as a woman, lives her whole life that way, why should she have to go to a men's room? If she looks the part, acts the part, feels the part, she will be in danger if she goes into a men's room.

 

[Night Terror]

Transgender and transsexual people are deserving of the same respect as the rest of us.

 

[Ja'mie]

Transers in my bathroom don't bother me because we're all behind stalls anyway. But it gets tricky in places like locker rooms and showers. How you live is not my concern; privacy is.

 

[Burning Love]

Transers in my bathroom don't bother me because we're all behind stalls anyway. But it gets tricky in places like locker rooms and showers. How you live is not my concern; privacy is.

So which locker room/shower does a person with a penis and breasts go into? Which one is the safest space?

 

[AtroposHeart]

You know I am confused when people say that sex and gender are different things, but then say gender is a social construct.

How does that make sense? Are women and men biologically different? If so, then I can understand if someone's brain chemistry was more female while their body was male. However, if it is just a social construct why even have transgender rights in the first place?