Disaster Brexit: "Technical terms" agreed - Chequers minus, as feared, or Brexit in name only.

Coccxys

kiwifarms.net
The fun thing is if we are still in come June we need to have elections for MEPs. That will be a bloodbath for the mainstream parties and send a lot of extra annoyance the EU's way.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

May contain nuts.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Ffs it was so close to all finally being over with that 308-312 vote on no-deal.

I'd be seriously concerned that we aren't actually going to leave, but fortunately we've dicked around so much the rest of the EU is absolutely sick of us at this point.
No kidding. To me, the worst thing that could happen would be a second referendum with the opposite result.
I don't favor Brexit, but ffs, that's what people voted for, so pull your shit together, UK, and get on with it.
 

Coccxys

kiwifarms.net
No kidding. To me, the worst thing that could happen would be a second referendum with the opposite result.
I don't favor Brexit, but ffs, that's what people voted for, so pull your shit together, UK, and get on with it.
There are remainers out there who honestly think the genie can be jammed back into the bottle. The think if they get another referendum with remain winning that this will all just go away.
 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
I'm sorry but I don't understand why this place is so pro-Brexit. If we leave the EU then that means that we will receive less migration from the rest of Europe... and more migration from elsewhere. We're going to end up kicking out Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Poles, Czechs... and replacing them with more blacks and muslims to fill up the gaps they left. Brexit is going to brown the country up even more, and that's the absolute last thing we need.

And that's not even getting into the economic damage, and the chaos it could cause in Northern Ireland again. Brexit will also mean that we will lose the right to live and work in the rest of Europe without hassle. So we're getting rid of our own rights, damaging the economy, potentially causing Scotland and Northern Ireland to break away, all for... what? Can anyone please tell me what we're actually getting out of this mess?
 

CWCissey

Charming Man
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I'm sorry but I don't understand why this place is so pro-Brexit. If we leave the EU then that means that we will receive less migration from the rest of Europe... and more migration from elsewhere. We're going to end up kicking out Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Poles, Czechs... and replacing them with more blacks and muslims to fill up the gaps they left. Brexit is going to brown the country up even more, and that's the absolute last thing we need.

And that's not even getting into the economic damage, and the chaos it could cause in Northern Ireland again. Brexit will also mean that we will lose the right to live and work in the rest of Europe without hassle. So we're getting rid of our own rights, damaging the economy, potentially causing Scotland and Northern Ireland to break away, all for... what? Can anyone please tell me what we're actually getting out of this mess?
The chance to tell the browns that are flooding into Italy and Greece to fuck off if they're not useful
The chance to tell Brussels to suck eggs when they try to tell us what to do in order to stay in their little clique
Saving money to go towards more worthy projects than some fucking Romanian girl band
Slapping Scotland's shit.
Dealing with who we want on our own terms.
 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
The chance to tell the browns that are flooding into Italy and Greece to fuck off if they're not useful
The chance to tell Brussels to suck eggs when they try to tell us what to do in order to stay in their little clique
Saving money to go towards more worthy projects than some fucking Romanian girl band
Slapping Scotland's shit.
Dealing with who we want on our own terms.
I have no problem with any other European group, at the very least it's better to let them plug the gaps in our economy than inviting more Muhammads and Pajeets. Because, make no mistake, that's what will happen: when politicians talk about "strengthening our ties to the Commonwealth", this is coded language for allowing every Indian and African to come here. This was a serious problem in the post-war years as we allowed an influx of cheap labour from our colonies (the so-called "Windrush generation"). The EU's freedom of movement policy is a bulwark against the browning of Europe by allowing native Europeans to plug the gaps in the economies of other European nations.

I actually support the idea of a federal European state as the only way for us to continue to remain relevant internationally. If Europe continues to be divided between dozens of nation states then we're going to be at the mercy of the two superpowers, the USA and China. The EU allows our continent (including us) to continue to throw our own weight. The British Empire is dead and is never coming back, we're never going to return to the days where the UK is able to stand on its own as a formidable world power. Europe needs to unite if it wants to remain independent and powerful in the 21st century.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
kiwifarms.net
I have no problem with any other European group, at the very least it's better to let them plug the gaps in our economy than inviting more Muhammads and Pajeets. Because, make no mistake, that's what will happen: when politicians talk about "strengthening our ties to the Commonwealth", this is coded language for allowing every Indian and African to come here. This was a serious problem in the post-war years as we allowed an influx of cheap labour from our colonies (the so-called "Windrush generation"). The EU's freedom of movement policy is a bulwark against the browning of Europe by allowing native Europeans to plug the gaps in the economies of other European nations.

I actually support the idea of a federal European state as the only way for us to continue to remain relevant internationally. If Europe continues to be divided between dozens of nation states then we're going to be at the mercy of the two superpowers, the USA and China. The EU allows our continent (including us) to continue to throw our own weight. The British Empire is dead and is never coming back, we're never going to return to the days where the UK is able to stand on its own as a formidable world power. Europe needs to unite if it wants to remain independent and powerful in the 21st century.
Fuck that, just lock arms with the U.S. The U.K. is practically our puppet state anyway. At least then they actually get to vote on all the wars we drag them into. The EU is not and never will be relevant on the international stage. The last few years have solidified that much. You can't just throw a super state on top of a bunch of countries and expect hundreds of years of history, culture and bad blood to melt away. And the EU isn't going to keep out the kebabs and Pajeets because it keeps inviting more of them in. If that's what you are counting on, you haven't been paying attention to the last five years.
 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
Fuck that, just lock arms with the U.S. The U.K. is practically our puppet state anyway. At least then they actually get to vote on all the wars we drag them into. The EU is not and never will be relevant on the international stage. The last few years have solidified that much. You can't just throw a super state on top of a bunch of countries and expect hundreds of years of history, culture and bad blood to melt away. And the EU isn't going to keep out the kebabs and Pajeets because it keeps inviting more of them in. If that's what you are counting on, you haven't been paying attention to the last five years.
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
 

CWCissey

Charming Man
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
But a united Europe with Britain? We've been pushing against that shit since Napoleon.

Hell, our sitcoms even mock the idea.

 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
But a united Europe with Britain? We've been pushing against that shit since Napoleon.

Hell, our sitcoms even mock the idea.

Honestly, the stereotype of "perfidious Albion" is pretty accurate. For hundreds of years we tried to divide Europe and this is the first time that we won't succeed. We should have seen the EU as an opportunity for the divisions with our neighbours to fade into the past. The EU has come out of the charade of the Brexit negotiations looking like the more mature party. It's now not uncommon to see comments about how the UK looks like a spoilt child throwing a tantrum or a drunk trying to fight a lamp post, and as hard as it is for me to admit that's how we look to the rest of the world right now.

We can only come out of this with some face intact if Theresa May revoked article 50 and formally apologised for the mess of the past two years. Or used an extension to article 50 to hold a second referendum, which I'm fairly confident remain would win (and if it doesn't, what's not to say a bit of cheeky ballot stuffing won't sort that out?). The only reason to go ahead with a no-deal Brexit is the sunk cost fallacy, "we've already drove all the way to the edge of the cliff, so we might as well plunge off it!".
 

Ineedahero

kiwifarms.net
We can only come out of this with some face intact if Theresa May revoked article 50 and formally apologised for the mess of the past two years. Or used an extension to article 50 to hold a second referendum, which I'm fairly confident remain would win (and if it doesn't, what's not to say a bit of cheeky ballot stuffing won't sort that out?). The only reason to go ahead with a no-deal Brexit is the sunk cost fallacy, "we've already drove all the way to the edge of the cliff, so we might as well plunge off it!".
You are forgetting the reason people chose brexit in the first place - the barely sublimated desire to burn it all to the ground.

If there's another referendum they might as well stuff the ballots - since they will have shit all over the will of the people anyway.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
The nationalists aren't going to work with the EU because a) that defeats the purpose of being a nationalist - handing over sovereignty to a supranational entity is the very antithesis of nationalism; and b) the EU itself is a globalist elitist institution with a very opaque leadership structure and bureaucratic setup that isn't democratic in the slightest. The nationalists could never effect any real change in the EU and the EU bureaucrats would never let them. Both sides understand the game and the rules and are playing by the them.

Germany and France aren't going to war because nukes and economic integration, even outside of the EU framework, make that a damn impossibility. If Germany so much as sneezed hard, Europe would dog pile them because they blame Germany for every bad thing that's happened to the continent since the Roman Empire fell. And Germany itself is too cucked by Nazi guilt to more than blow smoke and huff farts.

English is already the language of diplomacy, business, science, etc. worldwide, and that's largely due to U.S. influence, not the EU.

The U.K. and the EU are already at the mercy of the U.S. The E.U. can pretend to be a major power all it wants but its the U.S. footing the bill for its defense, and the E.U. central states (Germany, France, et. al.) would let Russia steamroll all of Eastern Europe if it came down to that or war. Its not the U.S. you have to worry about crushing Europe like a bug.
 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
The nationalists aren't going to work with the EU because a) that defeats the purpose of being a nationalist - handing over sovereignty to a supranational entity is the very antithesis of nationalism; and b) the EU itself is a globalist elitist institution with a very opaque leadership structure and bureaucratic setup that isn't democratic in the slightest. The nationalists could never effect any real change in the EU and the EU bureaucrats would never let them. Both sides understand the game and the rules and are playing by the them.

Germany and France aren't going to war because nukes and economic integration, even outside of the EU framework, make that a damn impossibility. If Germany so much as sneezed hard, Europe would dog pile them because they blame Germany for every bad thing that's happened to the continent since the Roman Empire fell. And Germany itself is too cucked by Nazi guilt to more than blow smoke and huff farts.

English is already the language of diplomacy, business, science, etc. worldwide, and that's largely due to U.S. influence, not the EU.

The U.K. and the EU are already at the mercy of the U.S. The E.U. can pretend to be a major power all it wants but its the U.S. footing the bill for its defense, and the E.U. central states (Germany, France, et. al.) would let Russia steamroll all of Eastern Europe if it came down to that or war. Its not the U.S. you have to worry about crushing Europe like a bug.
Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
 

Just Some Other Guy

kiwifarms.net
Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
Lol Europe can't replecate our system.
 

mindlessobserver

kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
I think you are underestimating the sense of fidelity Americans have with the British. Any sort of measure that would treat Britain like garbage would not be very popular in America. Hell, we put up with Trudeau (barely) and pretend that what Canada needs is important to us even though its not. We do that because nobody wants to be a dick to Canada. The idea that the US and Canada would go at each others throats is the stuff of dark comedy, like in Fallout. Not something that is taken seriously. Same goes for the UK.

With respect to the EU, that is something Americans are turning against. We always viewed the entire project with a jaundiced eye. Especially post German reunification. The only reason America trusts the continental powers atm is because we can crush them like bugs if we wanted to. And more importantly they also know we can crush them like bugs if we wanted too. NATO was never an alliance of equals. It was Truman's solution to preventing another war in Europe. Our fat American ass would sit on the continent and hold the little fucks down, with the occasional fart in their face just to remind them of their position. Its why the French have constantly and consistently bitched about the arrangement (impotently, I might add). For France, they see their detente with Germany as way to finally, FINALLY get out from underneath America's ass and be a big boy again just like they have always wanted.

The EU has however made moves America is adamantly opposed too. Particularly in the legal and technology sphere. We've had to amend our own laws to protect American citizens and companies from the perfidous overreach of the Brussels technocrats. Overreach and arrogance that is only getting worse and will inevitably lead to a diplomatic incident at the current rate of divergence. More primal however is the EU's insistence on destroying national identity in favor of some sort of multi-cultural European global identity. the American people build their identities around place of origin first, and then apply that to how they fit in the greater American culture. We are Italian-American. Polish-American, Scottish Americans, etc etc etc. These identities are anchored to the immutable existence of the home country that birthed them. The EU is attempting to destroy that, and this can and does result in an almost atavistic feeling of rage amongst any American whose family originated from Europe. Which incidentally, is the vast majority of them.

Nobody can know the future, and wild speculation is just that. But America does not trust the EU either. It is tolerated. But it is generally disliked at best, and reviled at worst over here. The best move theresa may could have done, when Trump was in London, was get his commitment to viewing Gibraltar as covered under the North Atlantic charter. She would have gotten that too. Its in Europe. Spain and the EU cannot change the borders of Europe without risking overwhelming American military action anymore then Russia can. It would have in a stroke gotten a firm defense commitment for the UK, shut down Spains autistic screeching at the negotiations, and cast some serious shade at those smug assholes at Brussels.

But she wants to play nice, and does not want to be beholden to America for anything.
 
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The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
kiwifarms.net
Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
The EU could never really replicate America. America, for all of its notions of federalism, has a common origin: in the laws, politics and culture of Great Britain. Even though we are nation of immigrants (and indentured servants, and former slaves), we have a common culture that has descended down from our founding fathers and even earlier, from our British brothers overseas. That has never really gone away, and those who come over hear willingly learn quickly to get with the program, or find themselves on the outside looking in, like many African Americans. The states are political creations in most cases; the cultural differences are regional and cross state lines in many places, like Southern culture that crosses the Deep South. Texas and Louisiana are the states with the strongest cultural nationalism, and Texas actually used to be a country, so that helps. But ultimately, Americans still buy into the larger culture, with the same language, same religous preferences, same cultural history, etc. With the EU, you are trying to take over a dozen actual countries, with completely different languages, cultures, histories, laws, etc., many of which have spent centuries more less hating each other, and trying to force them all into one state, while also trying to wipe out or downplay those very same cultural differences. Poland and Hungary told the EU to piss off, sure, but that is only because they are still sovereign nations. In a federal Europe, that would no longer be the case. Hell, even in America, we are starting to burst at the seems as the Federal government is more powerful than the founding fathers ever intended, and its top down one size fits all rulership is really starting to rub much of the country the wrong way. And I don't see how one can simply ignore Russia's rising beligerence and say "Well, it will be fine."
 
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