Disaster Brexit: "Technical terms" agreed - Chequers minus, as feared, or Brexit in name only.

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
Fuck that, just lock arms with the U.S. The U.K. is practically our puppet state anyway. At least then they actually get to vote on all the wars we drag them into. The EU is not and never will be relevant on the international stage. The last few years have solidified that much. You can't just throw a super state on top of a bunch of countries and expect hundreds of years of history, culture and bad blood to melt away. And the EU isn't going to keep out the kebabs and Pajeets because it keeps inviting more of them in. If that's what you are counting on, you haven't been paying attention to the last five years.
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
 

CWCissey

Charming Man
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
But a united Europe with Britain? We've been pushing against that shit since Napoleon.

Hell, our sitcoms even mock the idea.

 

Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
But a united Europe with Britain? We've been pushing against that shit since Napoleon.

Hell, our sitcoms even mock the idea.

Honestly, the stereotype of "perfidious Albion" is pretty accurate. For hundreds of years we tried to divide Europe and this is the first time that we won't succeed. We should have seen the EU as an opportunity for the divisions with our neighbours to fade into the past. The EU has come out of the charade of the Brexit negotiations looking like the more mature party. It's now not uncommon to see comments about how the UK looks like a spoilt child throwing a tantrum or a drunk trying to fight a lamp post, and as hard as it is for me to admit that's how we look to the rest of the world right now.

We can only come out of this with some face intact if Theresa May revoked article 50 and formally apologised for the mess of the past two years. Or used an extension to article 50 to hold a second referendum, which I'm fairly confident remain would win (and if it doesn't, what's not to say a bit of cheeky ballot stuffing won't sort that out?). The only reason to go ahead with a no-deal Brexit is the sunk cost fallacy, "we've already drove all the way to the edge of the cliff, so we might as well plunge off it!".
 

Ineedahero

kiwifarms.net
We can only come out of this with some face intact if Theresa May revoked article 50 and formally apologised for the mess of the past two years. Or used an extension to article 50 to hold a second referendum, which I'm fairly confident remain would win (and if it doesn't, what's not to say a bit of cheeky ballot stuffing won't sort that out?). The only reason to go ahead with a no-deal Brexit is the sunk cost fallacy, "we've already drove all the way to the edge of the cliff, so we might as well plunge off it!".
You are forgetting the reason people chose brexit in the first place - the barely sublimated desire to burn it all to the ground.

If there's another referendum they might as well stuff the ballots - since they will have shit all over the will of the people anyway.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
The nationalists aren't going to work with the EU because a) that defeats the purpose of being a nationalist - handing over sovereignty to a supranational entity is the very antithesis of nationalism; and b) the EU itself is a globalist elitist institution with a very opaque leadership structure and bureaucratic setup that isn't democratic in the slightest. The nationalists could never effect any real change in the EU and the EU bureaucrats would never let them. Both sides understand the game and the rules and are playing by the them.

Germany and France aren't going to war because nukes and economic integration, even outside of the EU framework, make that a damn impossibility. If Germany so much as sneezed hard, Europe would dog pile them because they blame Germany for every bad thing that's happened to the continent since the Roman Empire fell. And Germany itself is too cucked by Nazi guilt to more than blow smoke and huff farts.

English is already the language of diplomacy, business, science, etc. worldwide, and that's largely due to U.S. influence, not the EU.

The U.K. and the EU are already at the mercy of the U.S. The E.U. can pretend to be a major power all it wants but its the U.S. footing the bill for its defense, and the E.U. central states (Germany, France, et. al.) would let Russia steamroll all of Eastern Europe if it came down to that or war. Its not the U.S. you have to worry about crushing Europe like a bug.
 

Beautiful Border

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The nationalists aren't going to work with the EU because a) that defeats the purpose of being a nationalist - handing over sovereignty to a supranational entity is the very antithesis of nationalism; and b) the EU itself is a globalist elitist institution with a very opaque leadership structure and bureaucratic setup that isn't democratic in the slightest. The nationalists could never effect any real change in the EU and the EU bureaucrats would never let them. Both sides understand the game and the rules and are playing by the them.

Germany and France aren't going to war because nukes and economic integration, even outside of the EU framework, make that a damn impossibility. If Germany so much as sneezed hard, Europe would dog pile them because they blame Germany for every bad thing that's happened to the continent since the Roman Empire fell. And Germany itself is too cucked by Nazi guilt to more than blow smoke and huff farts.

English is already the language of diplomacy, business, science, etc. worldwide, and that's largely due to U.S. influence, not the EU.

The U.K. and the EU are already at the mercy of the U.S. The E.U. can pretend to be a major power all it wants but its the U.S. footing the bill for its defense, and the E.U. central states (Germany, France, et. al.) would let Russia steamroll all of Eastern Europe if it came down to that or war. Its not the U.S. you have to worry about crushing Europe like a bug.
Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
 

Just Some Other Guy

kiwifarms.net
Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
Lol Europe can't replecate our system.
 

mindlessobserver

kiwifarms.net
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think the idea of a united Europe is that unrealistic. France and Germany used to be mortal enemies, but now the idea of war between the two is unthinkable. Already in most of the EU the English language acts as a lingua franca. You can visit most EU countries them without being able to speak the native language and still be able to get by. The EU's current population of 500 million people would make it the third largest country on Earth if it were to fully federalise.

Yes, the EU has a major problem in terms of dealing with the influx of non-Europeans wanting to live here, but this could be reformed. Opposing the entirety of the EU just because it has a soft touch approach to third world migration just seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. If nationalists were willing to work within the EU's bodies to affect these policies instead of refusing to participate then a lot could be done to fix this. By refusing to participate within the EU and writing the EU off as a tool of globalisation and multiculturalism, nationalists are ceding the EU's tools of power to the people who do support those things. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the last thing I'd want is for the UK to be at the mercy of the US. Although we speak the same language as them I'm worried that they would have no regard for our interests, and that any kind of arrangement with them would be a one-way street. Donald Trump's "America first" approach means that he will think nothing of exploiting us in whatever way he sees fit. Outside of the EU we are alone and vulnerable and the US will crush us like a bug, but if we still have the backing of the rest of Europe behind us then we will still have some bargaining power.
I think you are underestimating the sense of fidelity Americans have with the British. Any sort of measure that would treat Britain like garbage would not be very popular in America. Hell, we put up with Trudeau (barely) and pretend that what Canada needs is important to us even though its not. We do that because nobody wants to be a dick to Canada. The idea that the US and Canada would go at each others throats is the stuff of dark comedy, like in Fallout. Not something that is taken seriously. Same goes for the UK.

With respect to the EU, that is something Americans are turning against. We always viewed the entire project with a jaundiced eye. Especially post German reunification. The only reason America trusts the continental powers atm is because we can crush them like bugs if we wanted to. And more importantly they also know we can crush them like bugs if we wanted too. NATO was never an alliance of equals. It was Truman's solution to preventing another war in Europe. Our fat American ass would sit on the continent and hold the little fucks down, with the occasional fart in their face just to remind them of their position. Its why the French have constantly and consistently bitched about the arrangement (impotently, I might add). For France, they see their detente with Germany as way to finally, FINALLY get out from underneath America's ass and be a big boy again just like they have always wanted.

The EU has however made moves America is adamantly opposed too. Particularly in the legal and technology sphere. We've had to amend our own laws to protect American citizens and companies from the perfidous overreach of the Brussels technocrats. Overreach and arrogance that is only getting worse and will inevitably lead to a diplomatic incident at the current rate of divergence. More primal however is the EU's insistence on destroying national identity in favor of some sort of multi-cultural European global identity. the American people build their identities around place of origin first, and then apply that to how they fit in the greater American culture. We are Italian-American. Polish-American, Scottish Americans, etc etc etc. These identities are anchored to the immutable existence of the home country that birthed them. The EU is attempting to destroy that, and this can and does result in an almost atavistic feeling of rage amongst any American whose family originated from Europe. Which incidentally, is the vast majority of them.

Nobody can know the future, and wild speculation is just that. But America does not trust the EU either. It is tolerated. But it is generally disliked at best, and reviled at worst over here. The best move theresa may could have done, when Trump was in London, was get his commitment to viewing Gibraltar as covered under the North Atlantic charter. She would have gotten that too. Its in Europe. Spain and the EU cannot change the borders of Europe without risking overwhelming American military action anymore then Russia can. It would have in a stroke gotten a firm defense commitment for the UK, shut down Spains autistic screeching at the negotiations, and cast some serious shade at those smug assholes at Brussels.

But she wants to play nice, and does not want to be beholden to America for anything.
 
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The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
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Nationalism doesn't necessarily have to equate to isolationism. I'm not calling for a unitary European state, but a federal one. Think of the US: many people from states like Texas, California, Hawaii, etc. feel patriotic towards their state, but that doesn't come into conflict with their patriotism towards the US as a whole (or at least it doesn't for most people). There is no contradiction between state pride and national pride in that sense. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Europe, especially when agreements such as the Schengen Area have made travelling between countries effortless. Also, unless you're going full-on Auschwitz mode and actively persecuting minorities then the EU isn't going to do much if a member state adopts nationalistic policies. Hungary and Poland told the EU to get stuffed when they were asked to accept refugees, and the EU could do nothing other than tut.

Placing walls around borders does not make sense if the border is with a friendly country with comparable economic and cultural circumstances. It also took a lot of effort to integrate France and Germany's economies to the degree that they are now in the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was one of the direct predecessors to the EU.

When it comes to your point about Europe's defense: you're correct in the sense that Europe currently depends too much on the US for its defence. That's what Macron and Merkel's proposal for a European Army would aim to fix. This also isn't as much of a big deal as you are making it out to be, as the probability of a conventional war with Russia is pretty miniscule. I'm also not saying that the EU should rival the US, but be able to stand more on its own two feet. America could adopt a less hawkish foreign policy and be more concerned with its own affairs (like it did in the 20s and 30s) if it had a strong ally in the form of a federal Europe.
The EU could never really replicate America. America, for all of its notions of federalism, has a common origin: in the laws, politics and culture of Great Britain. Even though we are nation of immigrants (and indentured servants, and former slaves), we have a common culture that has descended down from our founding fathers and even earlier, from our British brothers overseas. That has never really gone away, and those who come over hear willingly learn quickly to get with the program, or find themselves on the outside looking in, like many African Americans. The states are political creations in most cases; the cultural differences are regional and cross state lines in many places, like Southern culture that crosses the Deep South. Texas and Louisiana are the states with the strongest cultural nationalism, and Texas actually used to be a country, so that helps. But ultimately, Americans still buy into the larger culture, with the same language, same religous preferences, same cultural history, etc. With the EU, you are trying to take over a dozen actual countries, with completely different languages, cultures, histories, laws, etc., many of which have spent centuries more less hating each other, and trying to force them all into one state, while also trying to wipe out or downplay those very same cultural differences. Poland and Hungary told the EU to piss off, sure, but that is only because they are still sovereign nations. In a federal Europe, that would no longer be the case. Hell, even in America, we are starting to burst at the seems as the Federal government is more powerful than the founding fathers ever intended, and its top down one size fits all rulership is really starting to rub much of the country the wrong way. And I don't see how one can simply ignore Russia's rising beligerence and say "Well, it will be fine."
 

mindlessobserver

kiwifarms.net
The EU could never really replicate America. America, for all of its notions of federalism, has a common origin: in the laws, politics and culture of Great Britain. Even though we are nation of immigrants (and indentured servants, and former slaves), we have a common culture that has descended down from our founding fathers and even earlier, from our British brothers overseas. That has never really gone away, and those who come over hear willingly learn quickly to get with the program, or find themselves on the outside looking in, like many African Americans. The states are political creations in most cases; the cultural differences are regional and cross state lines in many places, like Southern culture that crosses the Deep South. Texas and Louisiana are the states with the strongest cultural nationalism, and Texas actually used to be a country, so that helps. But ultimately, Americans still buy into the larger culture, with the same language, same religous preferences, same cultural history, etc. With the EU, you are trying to take over a dozen actual countries, with completely different languages, cultures, histories, laws, etc., many of which have spent centuries more less hating each other, and trying to force them all into one state, while also trying to wipe out or downplay those very same cultural differences. Poland and Hungary told the EU to piss off, sure, but that is only because they are still sovereign nations. In a federal Europe, that would no longer be the case. Hell, even in America, we are starting to burst at the seems as the Federal government is more powerful than the founding fathers ever intended, and its top down one size fits all rulership is really starting to rub much of the country the wrong way. And I don't see how one can simply ignore Russia's rising beligerence and say "Well, it will be fine."
It should be noted though that in America, for all its power the US Federal Government has very limited interactions with American citizens. Most contact any American will unwillingly have with the Feds is on April 15 when they file their taxes. Most willing contact will be when they want a passport to travel or its time to collect social security. Which is something you want to do and are quite happy when it is done. Incidentally, the US Government is very efficient with both because it knows this is when most Americans will have contact with it. Beyond that, the State you reside in is the one that reaches out and touches you on a day to day basis. Every time you buy some shit at the grocery store. Every time you are going just a tad too fast on the highway. Your electrity. Your water. Your food. All of these things are managed by the States. In some cases following Federal guidlines, but a restaurant that violated the Food and Drug Act won't get raided by the FBI. The local health department paid and run by the State will show up. The Feds may have ultimate authority, but it is the very odd situation that results in a random person on the street ending up being involved with the federal government.

This contrasts hard with what the EU seems to want. They have looked at America and want to be like us, but they don't understand what it MEANS to be like us. More importantly they don't understand why we are the way we are. Its a common misconeption to view America as a young nation. A Newcomer. And this is a very grave mistake to make. America is one of the oldest nations in the world. In 1789, the Continental Congress proclaimed the very first constitutional republic. And over the following centuries we hashed out just what that meant. Even to the point of civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. Europe may be old culturally, but it is not old politically. Their Constitutions are on average decades old, and have never stood the test of time. Ironically, only Britain can claim to be an older nation then America politically.
 

JosephTX

TX Penal Code Sec. 9.31: Fuck Around and Find Out
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Why the fuck are the British still negotiating with the EU, clearly they're an irredeemably hostile party in this negotiation so why hasn't the UK just told them to fuck off, set up trade deals with the Commonwealth and US and if the EU wants a hard border in Ireland to set it up themselves as the EU doesn't seem to mind open borders with Syria.
 
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The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
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Why the fuck are the British still negotiating with the EU, clearly they're an irredeemably hostile party in this negotiation so why hasn't the UK just told them to fuck off, set up trade deals with the Commonwealth and US and if the EU wants a hard border in Ireland to set it up themselves as the EU doesn't seem to mind open borders with Syria.
Because many of the Brits overseeing the negotiations on the otherside are just as duplicitous as their EU counterparts and don't really want a real Brexit either. Nobody, on either side, is dealing in good faith here.
 

Clem Fandango

Can you hear me?
kiwifarms.net
I'm sorry but I don't understand why this place is so pro-Brexit. If we leave the EU then that means that we will receive less migration from the rest of Europe... and more migration from elsewhere. We're going to end up kicking out Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Poles, Czechs... and replacing them with more blacks and muslims to fill up the gaps they left. Brexit is going to brown the country up even more, and that's the absolute last thing we need.

And that's not even getting into the economic damage, and the chaos it could cause in Northern Ireland again. Brexit will also mean that we will lose the right to live and work in the rest of Europe without hassle. So we're getting rid of our own rights, damaging the economy, potentially causing Scotland and Northern Ireland to break away, all for... what? Can anyone please tell me what we're actually getting out of this mess?
The point is that the "migration from elsewhere" is actually controlled by us
Have you any experience with the immigration system? Non-EU immigrants are checked for all kinds of things: that they speak English, that they have enough money to support themselves, that they will have a job when they get here, etc. Hell, they're even screened for tuberculosis if they're from certain countries.

NONE of that applies to EU migrants. If you're from any EU country, even shit holes like Bulgaria and Romania, you can just come in. We're not in control.

The EU clearly has its eyes on expanding even further, you can look up the roster of candidate countries. Needless to say, no one will be moving from the UK to any of those countries. It will just be more immigration as far as we're concerned.

So you're right that Brexit won't "stop" immigration. But it will allow us to turn the tap on and off as needed, and screen immigrants properly to ensure people we actually want are getting in.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

May contain nuts.
True & Honest Fan
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There are remainers out there who honestly think the genie can be jammed back into the bottle. The think if they get another referendum with remain winning that this will all just go away.
A second referendum most likely would turn out "Remain", but this would only lead to even more shouting from Brexiters that "They let us vote until they like the results" or "Brussels has made our politicians cop out" or whatever.
It would reverse the position between Remainers and Leavers that we have at the moment, but I agree, this debate will never be over one way or another.

The EU is not and never will be relevant on the international stage.
:optimistic:

It is among the top three GDP-wise, however its close ties to the US (or dare I say, the barely hidden status as a vassal state) means we don't really do much with this ecnomic power.
This is why Trump's (or Obama's) insistence on Europe to invest more into their military is so absurd to me. It's attacking one of the main pillars of american influence over our politics. Kind of funny, how they insist Europe spending more on military, but the moment the idea of a unified European army gets their knickers in a bunch. There's historical precedence for this to work.


You can't just throw a super state on top of a bunch of countries and expect hundreds of years of history, culture and bad blood to melt away
It worked fine for Germany 18th century. Japan is a similar case during the same time. China did this in the 1950s (!). Granted, the results in China were very messy, but that has more to do with the political system that prevailed than it being unified.
Point is, if you just take Germany as an example, you'll see that there is nothing to prevent this from being successful.
Historically speaking, a strong outside threat helped unify a shitton of small countries into one modern nation. Napoleon, in case of Germany, just a few decades after unifying, said newly found nation managed to kick France's ass and wage two wars against pretty much all of Europe, parts of Asia and the US at once.
Similarly with Japan. They unified due to the outside threat of western powers (namely the US) and within a few decades, they gave the russians a run for their money.

This process doesn't necessarily involve the complete erasure of regional identity (though it is necessary to implement a new identity for the new nation). I don't see why this shouldn't work on a larger scale.

I think you are underestimating the sense of fidelity Americans have with the British. Any sort of measure that would treat Britain like garbage would not be very popular in America.
I guess that means the US would never drag one of its close partners into a futile war that only serves its own interest. And I bet if someone, say the NSA, was heavily infiltrating the privacy of innocent citizens of the UK or even outright engage in industrial espionage, there'd be a massive outcry in the US that would instantly shut down such things, the moment they would become common knowledge, right?

The point is, while the US population might be sympathetic to the UK, their politicians are just out of fucks to give when it comes to their own interests.

The EU has however made moves America is adamantly opposed too.
Guess that puts them on equal footing there.

More primal however is the EU's insistence on destroying national identity in favor of some sort of multi-cultural European global identity
I don't think that's purely a european problem. Identity politics and ultra-leftism seems to thrive with the same fervor and a similar effect in the US.


A mild difference in the rhetoric seems to be that leftists in the US are also very eager to shit on the history of the USA by declaring everyone, including Washington and Columbus to be "problematic".

It should be noted though that in America, for all its power the US Federal Government has very limited interactions with American citizens. Most contact any American will unwillingly have with the Feds is on April 15 when they file their taxes. Most willing contact will be when they want a passport to travel or its time to collect social security. Which is something you want to do and are quite happy when it is done. Incidentally, the US Government is very efficient with both because it knows this is when most Americans will have contact with it. Beyond that, the State you reside in is the one that reaches out and touches you on a day to day basis. Every time you buy some shit at the grocery store.
This is pretty similar to how it works in Germany and I don't see, why a similar system shouldn't work in the EU as a whole.
The EU is undemocratic bullshit in dire need for reforms, I agree, but that still doesn't make the idea behind it any less valid.
Every individual nation-state in Europe is powerless against superpowers such as the USA and China, possibly even Russia (if only for their military strength). If you genuinely think the USA would never use their superior power to make individual nation-states do their bidding without the slightest regard to their interests, you might wanna read up on Cold War history, tbh.
Every nation-state is forced by realpolitik to ramshackle themselves to one superpower or the other, since they are too weak both in economy and military to stand up for their own. The EU can help to alleviate this problem and possibly become an equal partner to the superpowers. I know that this will take a lot of time and effort and we're not exactly on course for that atm either, but in terms of pure necessity, the EU's relevance to its members can't be overstated.
 

Ponderous Pillock

Welcome to Triple T, Tards, Troons and Trolls!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I'm sorry but I don't understand why this place is so pro-Brexit. If we leave the EU then that means that we will receive less migration from the rest of Europe... and more migration from elsewhere. We're going to end up kicking out Frenchmen, Germans, Italians, Poles, Czechs... and replacing them with more blacks and muslims to fill up the gaps they left. Brexit is going to brown the country up even more, and that's the absolute last thing we need.
Alternatively we could always unite with Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Which is consistently a popular idea...


Something we arguably should've done instead of joining the EU. But we got infiltrated by morons like Heath and Major.

Quite frankly, I'm more likely to get a joke by a Nigerian instead of the awkward pauses from a Romanian or Bulgarian who's probably going to nick my car and sell it to Albanians. I'd sooner have a Nigerian or Indian for a neighbour than a european too. At least our sense of humour will be on the right wavelength.

And that's not even getting into the economic damage, and the chaos it could cause in Northern Ireland again. Brexit will also mean that we will lose the right to live and work in the rest of Europe without hassle. So we're getting rid of our own rights, damaging the economy, potentially causing Scotland and Northern Ireland to break away, all for... what? Can anyone please tell me what we're actually getting out of this mess?
What damage in Northern Ireland? The majority of Irish Trade goes from NI to RUK, not the other way around and German economists are forecasting the Irish Republic is going to be hit by an economic shrinkage of 5.6% for playing silly bastards in the negotiations and a WTO outcome. The UK in comparison? 0.5%.

The Withdrawal Agreement is, in fact a blatant land grab by the Irish and in flagrant violation of the Good Friday Agreement in which Northern Ireland and its people have to vote on their right to self determination. Same as any other part of the UK or her overseas territories. Locking NI forever inside the EU, which I garun-fucking-tee will be followed by Little Leo saying "maybe ye should join us there now the English have abandoned ye."

The SNP are opposed to leaving the EU precsicely because it harms their chances of nominal independence (and fat EU cheques) as they sure as shit won't be a net contributor. The majority of the UK economy is Wales-England at some $2 trillion. Scotland is a $200bn blip that even the oil industry cannot save. Let alone the venezuealan levels of exceptionalism that SNP economics was based on, in which oil would remain forever at $100 a barrel and thus fund all the free shit they get thanks to English Taxpayers.

You're still going to be able to immigrate to Europe, same as everywhere else, it just won't be as easy as you getting in your car and driving somewhere looking for work (and vice versa).

We're not exactly sending off the working classes to go into the EU to find menial jobs now, are we? No we've instead had a flood of Eastern Euros who do the job for cheaper thanks to the pound being worth more and remaining consistently so despite the desperate doom mongering from Mark Carney.

In fact it's to the point the OBR's revised it's growth figures and expects the UK economy to get even tighter "despite Brexit."


It worked fine for Germany 18th century. Japan is a similar case during the same time. China did this in the 1950s (!). Granted, the results in China were very messy, but that has more to do with the political system that prevailed than it being unified.
So, to clarify

"Worked for Germany" - Because of the Prussian Bootheel at the smaller country's throats.

"Japan in a similar case" - After thousands were killed and machine gunned down, followed by purging or killing most opposition.

"China in the 1950s" - ahahaha. Yeah sure, Taiwain's not a thing and millions of fucking people didn't die.

Is there a reason all of your examples are under threat of violence or massive scales of death?
 
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Datiko

kiwifarms.net
The point is that the "migration from elsewhere" is actually controlled by us
Have you any experience with the immigration system? Non-EU immigrants are checked for all kinds of things: that they speak English, that they have enough money to support themselves, that they will have a job when they get here, etc. Hell, they're even screened for tuberculosis if they're from certain countries.

NONE of that applies to EU migrants. If you're from any EU country, even shit holes like Bulgaria and Romania, you can just come in. We're not in control.
On the flip side, you won't be able to dump your trash(elderly) on the rest of Europe since presumably the EU isn't going to jump at supporting old people from outside of the block. You are also going to pay more for basic services since you won't get cheap eastern labor anymore.
 
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Ponderous Pillock

Welcome to Triple T, Tards, Troons and Trolls!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
On the flip side, you won't be able to dump your trash(elderly) on the rest of Europe since presumably the EU isn't going to jump at supporting old people from outside of the block. You are also going to pay more for basic services since you won't get cheap eastern labor anymore.
They don't. We send pensions to them. Also, EHIC has been agreed upon outside shit like the WA. Which is a charge-back service to the respective state healthcare systems. I run up a bill in Germany in a hospital stay, then they send the bill to the NHS.
 

CWCissey

Charming Man
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Bercow just pissed a lot of people off by not including an amendment calling for a second referendum that has a remain option lol.
 
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