Disaster Brexit: "Technical terms" agreed - Chequers minus, as feared, or Brexit in name only.

Ponderous Pillock

Perfectly Presidential
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On the flip side, you won't be able to dump your trash(elderly) on the rest of Europe since presumably the EU isn't going to jump at supporting old people from outside of the block. You are also going to pay more for basic services since you won't get cheap eastern labor anymore.
They don't. We send pensions to them. Also, EHIC has been agreed upon outside shit like the WA. Which is a charge-back service to the respective state healthcare systems. I run up a bill in Germany in a hospital stay, then they send the bill to the NHS.
 

CWCissey

Charming Man
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Bercow just pissed a lot of people off by not including an amendment calling for a second referendum that has a remain option lol.
 

Ponderous Pillock

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Bercow just pissed a lot of people off by not including an amendment calling for a second referendum that has a remain option lol.
He's denied the anti-second referendum amendment signed by 127 MPs across party lines. He's allowing the Lib Dems one to go ahead, that's only been signed by them.

My vote's not going to go to any mainstream party anymore. It's going Brexit Party.
 

Clem Fandango

Can you hear me?
kiwifarms.net
On the flip side, you won't be able to dump your trash(elderly) on the rest of Europe since presumably the EU isn't going to jump at supporting old people from outside of the block. You are also going to pay more for basic services since you won't get cheap eastern labor anymore.
I love how this is always couched as "you'll pay more for basic services", as if everyone who voted for Brexit is middle class.

How about "British workers who provide basic services wont be undercut by foreigners, and will be able to charge a fee commensurate with the cost of living in the UK"?
 

Ponderous Pillock

Perfectly Presidential
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I'm sort of amazed, because the traditional parties are acting with amazing hubris and arrogance. Just like many parties did over in mainland Europe. The end result was a swathe of new parties replacing them. In some cases like in France the traditional parties were nearly annihilated, with Macron simply winning the presidency because he wasn't Le Pen.

I know they think the UK system is completely set in Amber, but then I don't really expect MPs to have the ability to think more than several minutes ahead, like fish.

The last time there was a huge political upset a century ago, Labour replaced the Liberal Party.

I rather suspect it's going to begin happening again now.
 

Just Some Other Guy

kiwifarms.net
So, to clarify

"Worked for Germany" - Because of the Prussian Bootheel at the smaller country's throats.

"Japan in a similar case" - After thousands were killed and machine gunned down, followed by purging or killing most opposition.

"China in the 1950s" - ahahaha. Yeah sure, Taiwain's not a thing and millions of fucking people didn't die.

Is there a reason all of your examples are under threat of violence or massive scales of death?
They forget that we were invested into this idea from almost the very beginning of our national history. You can't just slap a knockoff version on top centuries later and expect it to work the same. Europe could copy the US federal system, shit even our Constitution, down to the very last word and it would still turn out incredibly different.

That's why all of those examples were born from violent methods, they had to be. The very example that this shit won't work in the EU is just take a look at the rising nationalism across Europe. Fucking more and more Europeans don't want that shit because at the end of their day, they like belonging to their own sovereign nation that they've had for centuries.

Don't forget that even in the US, we had to go through an incredibly violent civil war to really enforce the union, have fun with that one guys. It'd happen eventually as you try to erase those nationalistic identities.
 

Datiko

kiwifarms.net
I love how this is always couched as "you'll pay more for basic services", as if everyone who voted for Brexit is middle class.

How about "British workers who provide basic services wont be undercut by foreigners, and will be able to charge a fee commensurate with the cost of living in the UK"?
Because any gains in higher wages is offset by the increased costs that everybody has to pay. You're still going to get foreigners coming in to do all the shit jobs, only they likely won't be European.

They don't. We send pensions to them. Also, EHIC has been agreed upon outside shit like the WA. Which is a charge-back service to the respective state healthcare systems. I run up a bill in Germany in a hospital stay, then they send the bill to the NHS.
Will the EHIC still exist when the UK exits? The cost of treating seniors in Europe is cheaper than treating them in the UK. EHIC guarantees care at the same level as locals which means British seniors are charged at the subsidized rate. Why would UK citizens not be treated like any other foreign national and charged full private rates?
 

Clem Fandango

Can you hear me?
kiwifarms.net
Because any gains in higher wages is offset by the increased costs that everybody has to pay. You're still going to get foreigners coming in to do all the shit jobs, only they likely won't be European.
Complete rubbish. Try employing someone from outside the EU right now. Companies do it, but you have effectively be willing to sponsor the individual, vouch for them and the job has to pay over a high threshold amount. That's why it's only done for highly skilled employees.

After Brexit ALL immigrants will be non-EU immigrants. It will be much more economical for lower paid jobs (or "shit jobs" as you put it) to employ people already in the country, even if you have to pay them a decent wage.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

Still Pimpin
kiwifarms.net
It worked fine for Germany 18th century. Japan is a similar case during the same time. China did this in the 1950s (!). Granted, the results in China were very messy, but that has more to do with the political system that prevailed than it being unified.
Point is, if you just take Germany as an example, you'll see that there is nothing to prevent this from being successful.
Historically speaking, a strong outside threat helped unify a shitton of small countries into one modern nation. Napoleon, in case of Germany, just a few decades after unifying, said newly found nation managed to kick France's ass and wage two wars against pretty much all of Europe, parts of Asia and the US at once.
Similarly with Japan. They unified due to the outside threat of western powers (namely the US) and within a few decades, they gave the russians a run for their money.
Germany, China, and Japan are terrible analogies. While Germany and Japan were not Unified as modern states till the 19th century, they were coherent nations, with the consistent cultures and national identities even prior to unification. It is nowhere near the same as trying to unify multiple nation-states into one coherent country.

To make this point clearer, though there were multiple German states prior to the German Empire's creation, the people who lived there were still culturally German, and still considered themselves German, and the concept of a nation and region of Germany and of a German people predated national unification. Germany was a unification of the German people into a nation-state in the Westphalian sense, not a union of multiple nations and peoples into a state that literally exist to be the antithesis to that point.

Japan was a feudal state prior to the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate which essentially united Japan, but the Japanese daimyo, independent though they were, swore allegiance to the the Emperor, and the Japanese people had a common cultural and ethnic heritage going back to prehistory. In other words, the nation of Japan existed long before Japan evolved into a modernized nation-state by the coming of the Meiji Restoration.

An China was long unified prior to 1950. China is one of the most ancient nations on Earth, with the Chinese people unified by various dynasties for over 1000 years, and the Han Chinese have long, rich, cultural history. 1949 was only when the current People's Republic of China which rules the mainland had been proclaimed. But the PRC did not create China whole cloth out of nothing. A Han Chinese nation has existed in that region for practically all of recorded history. Though other ethnicities may live in China, it is still a Han Chinese Nation State.

Your Analogy is comparing three separate nation-states that unified their already existing peoples to a supranational union, which is attempting to merge multiple nation-states into a single blob. Its not even kind of comparable.

Edit: Also, as has been pointed out, those "unifications" were anything but smooth. The Tokugawa clan had to wipeout their rivals to form the Shogunate, and the Tokugawa Shogunate had to be destroyed in the Boshin War to form the Empire of Japan as it became. Prussia had to win the Second Schleswig War, the Austro-Prussian War, and the Franco-Prussian War to Unify Germany, and he PRC had to defeat the Republic of China in the Chinese Civil War to unify China under their aegis, a war that is still technically on going. And the PRC subsequently murdered over 50 million of its own citizens, mostly by sheer incompetence. Japan and Germany ended up in World War II largely due to the lingering effects of each of their respective unification, and we know how that turned out. Even America had a Civil War that was what allowed it to really coalesce as a nation. Europe isn't going to get the better results trying to bureaucratically force a unification.
 
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Fareal

will definitely consider what you have said
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
And now Parliament votes to ask the EU for an Article 50 extension to allow them to... oh, wait, they don't have a plan. But can they please kick the can on a bit further, M. Barnier?
 

A Useless Fish

A Fish with literally no value, whatsoever.
kiwifarms.net
And now Parliament votes to ask the EU for an Article 50 extension to allow them to... oh, wait, they don't have a plan. But can they please kick the can on a bit further, M. Barnier?
It seems like the only plan these cuckolds have is to hope that they can prolong this bullshit for so long that the average voter just decides that leaving isn't worth the trouble. I've only been half paying attention to this whole mess, but it's amazing to me how utterly spineless and incompetant the people the britfags have elected to run their stupid country are. Is this really the best these people have?
 

iRON-mAn

kiwifarms.net
It seems like the only plan these cuckolds have is to hope that they can prolong this bullshit for so long that the average voter just decides that leaving isn't worth the trouble. I've only been half paying attention to this whole mess, but it's amazing to me how utterly spineless and incompetant the people the britfags have elected to run their stupid country are. Is this really the best these people have?
It really feels like it's going the other way though, with even the average remainer wanting them to just leave and get on with it already.
 

A Useless Fish

A Fish with literally no value, whatsoever.
kiwifarms.net
It really feels like it's going the other way though, with even the average remainer wanting them to just leave and get on with it already.
Is there any danger of a second referendum, though? I mean, I know the people who lost and who took it all personally seem insane enough to think it's a good idea, but isn't it more dangerous to set a precedent that democracy only counts when it goes the way powerful people want it to? I mean if they push for a second, and still lose, what's to stop them demanding another, and another, until they get their way?
 

iRON-mAn

kiwifarms.net
Is there any danger of a second referendum, though? I mean, I know the people who lost and who took it all personally seem insane enough to think it's a good idea, but isn't it more dangerous to set a precedent that democracy only counts when it goes the way powerful people want it to? I mean if they push for a second, and still lose, what's to stop them demanding another, and another, until they get their way?
If they do have another referendum, they'll set some kind of base line for success this time so they can truly say a majority wanted it, because apparently the last majority wasn't really a majority I guess.
 
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A Useless Fish

A Fish with literally no value, whatsoever.
kiwifarms.net
If they do have another referendum, they'll set some kind of base line for success this time so they can truly say a majority wanted it, because apparently the last majority wasn't really a majority I guess.
If they do, though, who decides the baseline, because it seems to me like it'll be the same people who are doing everything they can to not leave the EU.
 

iRON-mAn

kiwifarms.net
If they do, though, who decides the baseline, because it seems to me like it'll be the same people who are doing everything they can to not leave the EU.
Referendum on the baseline?

There'd be a bunch of debates and votes, but I think it'd come down to somewhere between 65-75. Even the remainers in parliament would want to be careful not to set it too high, in case neither reaches the mark. I'm not even sure what would happen in the event that no one wins...probably just another referendum with a lower baseline, I guess.
 
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Ginger Piglet

Fictional Manhunt Survivor
True & Honest Fan
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Is there any danger of a second referendum, though? I mean, I know the people who lost and who took it all personally seem insane enough to think it's a good idea, but isn't it more dangerous to set a precedent that democracy only counts when it goes the way powerful people want it to? I mean if they push for a second, and still lose, what's to stop them demanding another, and another, until they get their way?
Welcome to the world of European Union politics. They seem to have taken to heart Bertolt Brecht's poem that it is probably easiest to dissolve the people and elect another.

At least Sarah Wollaston's long extension for a second referendum has been tromped on conclusively. Lib Dems and TIGgers on suicide watch.

Thomas Cromwell, where are you when we need you.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
It's looking increasingly likely that the Brexit deadline will be extended beyond March 29th, although it's still not exactly clear what the new deadline will be. It's been reported today that the UK would have to hold it's EU parliamentary elections if the deadline extends beyond the end of May, and according to one report, the EU will terminate Britain's membership by July 1st if these elections do not go ahead. I can't see the UK government deciding to withhold these elections as a strategy to achieve Brexit, but I would be interested to see how many of the hard Brexiteers would support such an idea.

Personally, I'm of the view that the whole thing is a big mess, with no positive end in sight. It seems to me that we are either going to leave the EU on unclear terms, leave the EU on bad terms, or not leave the EU at all. None of the options look good to me, and it doesn't give me confidence that both sides at the negotiating table are clearly dragging their feet.
 
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