Can you be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic? -

[GHTD]

This is an argument you always see normiecons and Western leaders bring up, that being against Israel or Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic. It's fairly annoying to see this be brought up and have any opposing arguments against this theory be shut down, as that's not how public discourse works.

What's your thought on if you can criticize Israel without anti-Semitism? Is it possible to do so, or no?

 

[Aurora]

Just as I can criticize the Vatican without hating Catholics, and as I can criticize Iran without hating Islam, I can criticize Israel without hating Jewish people. It's a pretty common fallacy in arguments to claim you simply hate the group that the subject of your criticism is from. It's an effective way to rial support and dismiss said criticism.

 

[soy_king]

I dont think they're one and the same, but the line is very thin, so a lot of Anti Zionists happen to also be Antisemites. This is especially true if they're members of the Religion of Peace

 

[Richard Harrow]

You can criticize any subject without being anti-said subject. Everything can (and should be) subject to criticism. The impetus is on the target of criticism to defend itself through the use of rhetoric. This back and forth exchange is really what makes us 'civilized.' I can understand the confusion nowadays since in today's culture, it is assumed that any degree of hard inquiry is considered hateful or 'anti whatever.'

 

[Return of the Freaker]

Of course you fucking can. If you criticized the actions of the United States government or any European government, I wouldn't call you anti-White. They just realize anti-Semetism accusations are an easy cudgel.

 

[Dialtone]

109 Countries

 

[HeyYou]

Yes, but rarely does it seem to be the case. That said, Israel deserves to be criticized for the shit they've done.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

No

New antisemitism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course you fucking can. If you criticized the actions of the United States government or any European government, I wouldn't call you anti-White. They just realize anti-Semetism accusations are an easy cudgel.

The difference is that Israel is explicity suppose to be a Jewish ethnostate, a nation of Jews, for Jews.

 

[soy_king]

Yes, but rarely does it seem to be the case. That said, Israel deserves to be criticized for the shit they've done.

You do have to agree that, at least on the international level, Israel gets a disproportionate amount of scrutiny and criticism for their actions, especially when compared to their neighbors, much in the same way South Africa and Rhodesia were.

 

[HeyYou]

You do have to agree that, at least on the international level, Israel gets a disproportionate amount of scrutiny and criticism for their actions, especially when compared to their neighbors, much in the same way South Africa and Rhodesia were.

Oh, yeah, of course. There's nothing that Israel has done that Iran or Saudi Arabia hasn't. I just think they deserve to be scrutinized for building settlements on occupied land and receiving a rather large amount of foreign aid for how wealthy they are.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

You do have to agree that, at least on the international level, Israel gets a disproportionate amount of scrutiny and criticism for their actions, especially when compared to their neighbors, much in the same way South Africa and Rhodesia were.

We are constantly bombing and forcing regime change on Israels' neighbors, while Israel bathes itself in foreign aid

 

[soy_king]

We are constantly bombing and forcing regime change on Israels' neighbors, while Israel bathes itself in foreign aid

You do know that Israel receives less foreign aid than Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan, right? Also, I wouldn't call $3.5 billion a year that's conditioned to be spent on US armaments "bathing in foreign aid"

Oh, yeah, of course. There's nothing that Israel has done that Iran or Saudi Arabia hasn't. I just think they deserve to be scrutinized for building settlements on occupied land and receiving a rather large amount of foreign aid for how wealthy they are.

That's pretty fair. It should be important to stress that outside the US, noone else sends them foreign aid, and they're not the only ones building settlements on occupied land (see Turkey and Morocco).

 

[HeyYou]

You do know that Israel receives less foreign aid than Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan, right? Also, I wouldn't call $3.5 billion a year that's conditioned to be spent on US armaments "bathing in foreign aid"

I think the argument is that those three countries are legitimately unstable and need the money for building infrastructure and maintaining armed forces. Israel is incredibly wealthy, and has the resources to supply themselves if they needed to.

 

[Return of the Freaker]

I think the argument is that those three countries are legitimately unstable and need the money for building infrastructure and maintaining armed forces. Israel is incredibly wealthy, and has the resources to supply themselves if they needed to.

Not to mention Israel's nuclear status, already the worst kept secret in history before shit got leaked to the British press in the 80s.

 

[soy_king]

I think the argument is that those three countries are legitimately unstable and need the money for building infrastructure and maintaining armed forces. Israel is incredibly wealthy, and has the resources to supply themselves if they needed to.

I can see that as a valid argument, but those three countries are either ridiculously corrupt and simply steal that money, or funnel that money into terrorist organizations killing American troops, or in Pakistans case, both. This isnt to say that the Israel Lobby hasn't carved out some ridiculous cutbacks at the US's expense, but they're not the only ones doing that and they're probably our most reliable ally.

 

[HeyYou]

I can see that as a valid argument, but those three countries are either ridiculously corrupt and simply steal that money, or funnel that money into terrorist organizations killing American troops, or in Pakistans case, both.

More oversight is definitely needed, but I think it is a valid statement to say that Israel might not need they money compared to other places anymore, and it's valid to be angry that it's basically a non-starter since so many lobbying organizations are preventing it from being discussed.

 

[soy_king]

More oversight is definitely needed, but I think it is a valid statement to say that Israel might not need they money compared to other places anymore, and it's valid to be angry that it's basically a non-starter since so many lobbying organizations are preventing it from being discussed.

Someone's presenting valid policy based criticism of Israeli foreign policy? OY VEY, WE'VE FOUND ANOTHER ANTISEMITE GOY!

I'm interested to see what happens in the next few years as the American left starts pandering more to Muslims. I feel like we'll get a lot more criticisms of Israeli policy and Netanyahu especially l.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

You do know that Israel receives less foreign aid than Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan, right? Also, I wouldn't call $3.5 billion a year that's conditioned to be spent on US armaments "bathing in foreign aid"

Yeah its almost like the US completely usurped Iraq and Afghanistan, turning the countries on their heads, removed their leaders and put them in states of near anarchy.
Israel on the other hand is one of the few countries in the world with no debt, yet we're giving them billions of dollars for some reason.

Someone's presenting valid policy based criticism of Israeli foreign policy? OY VEY, WE'VE FOUND ANOTHER ANTISEMITE GOY!

I'm interested to see what happens in the next few years as the American left starts pandering more to Muslims. I feel like we'll get a lot more criticisms of Israeli policy and Netanyahu especially l.

I think the left will react the same way the reacted to Trump trying to implement the troop withdrawal that the left has spent most of my life arguing for. They'll find some reason to flip flop on the issue and become neo-cons.

 

[soy_king]

Israel on the other hand is one of the few countries in the world with no debt, yet we're giving them billions of dollars for some reason.

Uh, what?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/531627/national-debt-of-israel/#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20the%20national%20debt,around%20220.48%20billion%20U.S.%20dollars

.

 

[KingCoelacanth]

Israel isn't a reliable ally at all, they spy on us at every oppurtunity, have a history of trading US secrets with China. I can't even think of anything that Israel has even done for the US that merits our unwavering, undying loyalty to them.