Debate user "Null" on whether all women want kids and other MGTOW propaganda -

[Helvítis Túristi]

I've always thought one of the big pusher for reproduction is selfish self-preservation on a base personal level.

As you grow old you'll want someone to see you through your last years.

In that sense, I believe the only reason we can take the luxury of choosing not to have them is that we can find our way into an old people's home with a nurse or something.

In a way I believe child-free is slightly parasitic as eventually we'll live off the benefits of a society we're not helping to continue in the most meaningful/involved way we can.

If I couldn't go to an old people's home, huh... I would probably have kids, it's not guaranteed they'll take care of me but generally I guess all the living adults would employ society wide "conditioning" based on self interest to bully our little and then not so little slaves into seeing us through.

Except the people going to work in old people's homes will not be the same people as it used to be. There are already many cases of blacks killing or mistreating white elderly in their homes. Over the recent months it should probably include Asian elderly now too. Also, you have lot's of news articles saying that pensioners are a tax burden on the populace. It's ironic. They spent their entire lives paying for this and they're treated like trash. Meanwhile, foreign groups who don't pay back the system and are a worst burden on the tax payers get away from any criticism. Many people say they deserve it, but I think they were too kind hearted and easily mislead. The treatment of the elderly is only going to get worst along with the treatment of the population.

 

[Animosa]

Except the people going to work in old people's homes will not be the same people as it used to be. There are already many cases of blacks killing or mistreating white elderly in their homes. Over the recent months it should probably include Asian elderly now too. Also, you have lot's of news articles saying that pensioners are a tax burden on the populace. It's ironic. They spent their entire lives paying for this and they're treated like trash. Meanwhile, foreign groups who don't pay back the system and are a worst burden on the tax payers get away from any criticism. Many people say they deserve it, but I think they were too kind hearted and easily mislead. The treatment of the elderly is only going to get worst along with the treatment of the population.

Well, nothing is infallible or without risk.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

Is LOTR actually good? I like fantasy but the series is a large time commitment.

The movies are okayish and comfy, good for passing a slow day. The Rankin Bass movies are ironically closer to the source material both for the Hobbit and Return of the King. Everybody hates the Jackson scene where Aragorn decapitates the Mouth of Sauron because it betrays Tolkien's faithfulness to knightly honor. A lot of things from the books are missing or rearranged in the movies. The Hobbit trilogy is worse because it subtracts content to add new original shit to stretch it to three movies.

 

[WeWuzFinns]

This is the best video about the topic. Bri'ish man offers great evolutionary/psychological explanation.

https://odysee.com/@JollyHeretic:d/how-lefty-spinster-cope-is-turning-into:9

 

[PaleTay]

It does seem like there's a point in their late teens/early twenties where women just lose the ability to love their friends/partners. That leads to reporting their "friends" to HR for offensive comments, or fucking over their ex in one way or another but also a lot of girls cut out their childhood or university best friends because they no longer see them everyday. In a way I find that extremely sad.

 

[sper]

Can we all agree that women are dumb as rocks? Go to any female space, whether that is a subreddit, crystal.cafe, snapchat, tiktok, facebook, twitter, instagram, and their intellectualism and intelligence as a group radiates stupidity.

After seeing what they were like in their own little spaces and after experiencing what they say in private, it's all the same irrelevant stupid shit. Women don't have any groundbreaking knowledge or intelligence. They're literally adult children.

Females make much more sense when you see them as just children in an adult's body. Everything about them, all their opinions, all the interests and hobbies all then make sense. They're so delusional, so primitive in their thinking that it's best to disregard them.

It's then a man's duty to conquer the female, subdue her, subjugate her, dominate her, have complete control over her, and never even consider her opinion about anything important. It's your duty as a man to lead them and disregard their primitive nature.

It’s hilarious that men used to think women are the dumber sex

 

[KateHikes14]

It’s hilarious that men used to think women are the dumber sex

"Used to"

 

[Firetruck9000]

How does null know that every woman wants a child? Did he send out a survey to every woman? Did he read their minds?

 

[Sped Xing]

How does null know that every woman wants a child? Did he send out a survey to every woman? Did he read their minds?

Null wants children, so he assumes every other woman does as well.

 

[Retribution]

Are you stalking me

Yes, I am.

 

[furūtsu]

Whether or not all women want kids, I think we can all agree that some of them really shouldn’t have them.

The Schofields, Tard Babies, Pixyteri, Eugenia Cooney, Lillie Jean, Venus Angelic, Luna Slater, Jazz Jennings threads and so, so many more on this very site are a testament to that.

And how many of us personally know a narcissistic, vapid woman who tried to cultivate her own Mini Me and is the bane of her community because she wants to foist the task of raising her abused, misbehaving kids onto everyone else?

Not to mention how much MGTOW types typically loathe single mothers. Why don’t you laud them for reproducing? They followed their biological imperative, after all.

Stop urging women to pop out babies and instead push for society as a whole to value the family unit and the tribe as an auxillary family unit when the central one can’t provide enough for the children. Having kids for the sake of having kids is retarded.

 

[Strange Void]

Woman here. Pregnancy tends to be an incredibly traumatic experience which may lead you with permanent disabilities. There's a rise in women abstaining from pregnancies exactly for that reason, and the trend might reverse when in vitro pregnancies are gonna become common.

Personally? I don't like kids. That's about it.
AMA

 

[Shovel Mech Pilot]

Can we all agree that women are dumb as rocks? Go to any female space, whether that is a subreddit, crystal.cafe, snapchat, tiktok, facebook, twitter, instagram, and their intellectualism and intelligence as a group radiates stupidity.

After seeing what they were like in their own little spaces and after experiencing what they say in private, it's all the same irrelevant stupid shit. Women don't have any groundbreaking knowledge or intelligence. They're literally adult children.

Females make much more sense when you see them as just children in an adult's body. Everything about them, all their opinions, all the interests and hobbies all then make sense. They're so delusional, so primitive in their thinking that it's best to disregard them.

It's then a man's duty to conquer the female, subdue her, subjugate her, dominate her, have complete control over her, and never even consider her opinion about anything important. It's your duty as a man to lead them and disregard their primitive nature.

I obviously don't know you personally, but in my experience every guy who had this opinion was also one of the most low-value men imaginable, acting like their burger-flipping job and addiction to Call of Duty is the height of intellectual superiority. Or in other words, a Redditor.

 

[RussianParasite]

acting like their burger-flipping job and addiction to Call of Duty is the height of intellectual superiority.

Lol at the notion that they have a job.

 

[Probably An Autist]

Woman here. Pregnancy tends to be an incredibly traumatic experience which may lead you with permanent disabilities. There's a rise in women abstaining from pregnancies exactly for that reason, and the trend might reverse when in vitro pregnancies are gonna become common.

Personally? I don't like kids. That's about it.
AMA

If pregnancy is inherently dangerous and damaging to the physical body, why isn't society rife with swathes of crippled mothers? This is the same logic as "I'm afraid of flying because it might crash" or "I'm afraid of sneezing because it may cause an aneurism". Sure, in the past pregnancy was a risk but modern medicine fixed that. The fact there's an inherently small chance of something bad happening is a really weak reason IMO.

As for "I dislike kids", that's valid.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

Woman here. Pregnancy tends to be an incredibly traumatic experience which may lead you with permanent disabilities. There's a rise in women abstaining from pregnancies exactly for that reason, and the trend might reverse when in vitro pregnancies are gonna become common.

Personally? I don't like kids. That's about it.
AMA

No. This is something mostly said by women who have never had children. Most women who have had children will say pregnancy is the easy part, the work involved in properly caring and raising children is what’s difficult.

You only have to look at American social services to see women getting pregnant frequently but not being able to fulfill their obligation to adequately care for the children they produce. Pregnancy isn’t the issue, the hard work of raising children properly is.

The changes in society have led to fewer women having the desire or ability to self-sacrifice to raise children. You could call this the death or western civilization or realize that maybe it will lead to fewer, but better raised children. (If the women who realize this don’t have children, unfortunately the dumber ones still do and just end up being terrible mothers.)

A survey done about five years ago showed for the first time more men in their 20’s expressing a desire to have children than women in their 20’s. This was squarely due to the fact that women realize a large part of the caretaking duties will be done by them. Fathers get more of the “fun stuff” and mothers more of the difficult care taking work in the parental equation, esp in the early years. I’m not even taking fathers to task for this, it’s partly biological. Infants naturally cling to and need their mothers.

In today’s society is common for both parents to work, so becoming a mother now means having a full time job plus caring for their children and home. In the past raising children was their only job. I personally think at least one parent should be home full time for the first year old a child’s life. The fact that this isn’t a priority and 6 week old infants get put in daycare boggles my mind.

Most of society’s problems stem from shitty parents. Fewer kids with better parents would create a much better world than lots of kids with awful parents. You can fuck up a person forever by neglecting or abusing them as an infant. You’ve permanently installed faulty wiring in their brain from the start.

The fact that there is a weird fixation with pregnancy/abortion in the USA, but a totally laissez faire approach once the baby is born is fucking retarded and dangerous for society. It’s a great way to fill prisons but not build productive and healthy societies.

 

[Sped Xing]

Babies are simple, if tedious, to care for. It's when they learn to walk and talk that kids become hard.

However, women abstaining from getting pregnant because they're scared of the pregnancy is absolutely a real thing. Those based moms who say shitting out a kid is nothing but a chicken's wing aren't the ones who abstain from getting pregnant.

Imagine this were a thread about incels.

"A lot of unwillingly virgin males are scared to talk to girls."
"No. That's just something incels say. Talking to women is easy; ask any guy who gets laid."

At least popular culture isn't constantly telling everyone, "don't talk to girls! It's scary! They'll hate you! You can't!" How often, on the other hand, the little people on the screen talk about how painful and difficult it is to get pregnant and give birth!

 

[Strange Void]

If pregnancy is inherently dangerous and damaging to the physical body, why isn't society rife with swathes of crippled mothers? This is the same logic as "I'm afraid of flying because it might crash" or "I'm afraid of sneezing because it may cause an aneurism". Sure, in the past pregnancy was a risk but modern medicine fixed that. The fact there's an inherently small chance of something bad happening is a really weak reason IMO.

As for "I dislike kids", that's valid.

That's the thing - nobody really talks about it outside of parent circles. They are not outwardly "crippled" but gestational diabeetes that develops into the full-blown kind are common. Incontinence, loss of sexual pleasure, lasting behavioural changes (post-birth psychosis, as an example), tearing of birth canal etc etc etc. Obviously, nobody wants to talk about these kinds of changes as it would put someone on the fence distinctly in the camp of "no kids".

No. This is something mostly said by women who have never had children. Most women who have had children will say pregnancy is the easy part, the work involved in properly caring and raising children is what’s difficult.

Gotta disagree on that front, mate, but we all run in different circles, so maybe I've just been exposed to this kind of talk more often.

Though I do have to agree on your comments about the difficulty in raising children, and how it's not financially viable for anyone currently. Sadly, I cannot relate to the American perspective as I am a filthy european. I am of the opinion that children should not be raised exclusively in a two-parent home (hetero or otherwise), but rather communaly. It certainly mitigates the danger a child may be put into due to parental abuse, as they would have several parental figures.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

That's the thing - nobody really talks about it outside of parent circles. They are not outwardly "crippled" but gestational diabeetes that develops into the full-blown kind are common. Incontinence, loss of sexual pleasure, lasting behavioural changes (post-birth psychosis, as an example), tearing of birth canal etc etc etc. Obviously, nobody wants to talk about these kinds of changes as it would put someone on the fence distinctly in the camp of "no kids".


Gotta disagree on that front, mate, but we all run in different circles, so maybe I've just been exposed to this kind of talk more often.

Though I do have to agree on your comments about the difficulty in raising children, and how it's not financially viable for anyone currently. Sadly, I cannot relate to the American perspective as I am a filthy european. I am of the opinion that children should not be raised exclusively in a two-parent home (hetero or otherwise), but rather communaly. It certainly mitigates the danger a child may be put into due to parental abuse, as they would have several parental figures.

I think you are projecting your own personal fears here. You said you do not have not want children, so I think this is helping color your idea of pregnancy being this awful, dangerous undertaking and you have sought out proof of this. Confirmation bias.

I certainly read and knew about all those things you listed, and much much more gross awful stuff, but it didn’t make me decide against having children. The majority of pregnancies are uneventful with good outcomes. Many labor and delivery nurses have multiple children and they have seen stuff that would curl your toes.

Spoiler

The biggest medical issues that might have made me opt to not have children were what could go wrong with the baby. What might happen to me or my body didn’t frighten me. But the chance of having a profoundly disabled child that would suffer was certainly the most terrifying aspect of pregnancy for me.

You can always focus on some of the more extreme horror stories involving pregnancy, or women who really like to play up the drama of it. I’d could even agree with your premise if this was 1750 or 1860, but not in the modern era of western medical care.

Pregnancy is a natural biological function that women’s bodies were built for. Humans deciding to stand upright and grow big brains made it a bit more difficult, but we are still well adapted for it as the six billion humans on earth demonstrate.

Communal arrangements might mitigate the abuse two parents can do in private, but it greatly increases the risk of abuse by strange adults that have access to children and is very unideal.

Stuff on why you can’t raise kids on the ant farm model.

Spoiler

For a child to be able to have healthy relationship with other humans they first need a very secure and primary attachment to their parents or parental figure.

Stories from children raised in The Children of God cult, Scientology, ISKON, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Romania in the 1980’s, etc..make strong arguments against communal child rearing. It’s very easy to find the horror stories, the good outcomes seem to be much harder to find.

Forcing children to be raised communally is an idea that tends to appeal to hippie types, religious cults, Stalin like dictators and people who hate their parents.

Kids have a biological need to know they belong to a family unit, not feel like communal property. Now parents ensuring they and their children are active participants in a community is entirely different and quite beneficial, but there’s a reason why every successful society as been built upon the foundation of a family unit (usually a multi-generational, extended one, not the nuclear family stuff)

The research done in Romania in the early 90’s pretty much proved attachment theory and why children needed a primary family unit to belong to to thrive. The outcomes for children with bio-parents and foster families were staggeringly better off and more successful than those raised in supervised communal institutional settings.
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[Clem Fandango]

Woman here.

AMA

Why on earth would we want to hear a woman's opinion on this??