Discussion of North Korea and its political system -

[COLEGAY TOOTHPISS]

Remaking since the French, allies of the dang dirty US, hate our Fearless Leader Kim Jong Un.

I don't recall what was stated in the OP, but here were some things discussed last thread:

• What would happen if/when North Korea collapses in on itself
• The extent North Korean citizens actually believe government propaganda
• Juche ideology

 

[waffle]

I'm in the "most people buy into most of the shit, most of the time" camp. I think they know that things are better in the outside world than they are led to believe, but I suspect that they think that most of the black market media depictions of the outside world are just as spruced up as NK's own propaganda self-depictions. I think non-propaganda broadcasts are so totally outside their frame of references they think everything is just as big of a lie as the NK media is.

 

[Alex Krycek]

I went on at length about it but the sum of my argument was this: I don't see the country ever falling without a mlitary coup, and the Kim Dynasty has pretty much ensured that will never happen by implementing Songun. My eventual expectation is that after all the drama they have at the International level calms down, Russia annexes the DPRK. The reasons being a desire to end the rogue State and Warm Water Ports that Russia already uses anyway. I can't see any other positive ending since the South taking over would result in heavy backlash and the Chinese want a buffer with a US ally. Russia taking over is the only positive out come I see happening and I guarantee they'll receive backlash from the former DPRK Special Forces.

 

[sugoi-chan]

An important thing to remember about any discussion of North Korea and the effectiveness of their propaganda is that NK is a nationalist communist state (or at least, was. They took out all references to communism from their constitution in 2009). Juche is the central pillar of the NK state and part of juche is North Korean nationalism. According to defector testimony, even as far up the chain as Hwang Jang-yop, many North Koreans may not believe in the fact that Kim Jong-il made the sun rise and that they live in a paradise on earth - they may look at SK tv shows (soap operas are particularly popular) or hear propaganda piped in over the radio and know that they're living in the world's shittiest shithole - but many are proud of the fact that they are North Korean, that it's their country, and that if they work hard they will bring to bear the promises of Kim Il-sung to create a socialist paradise. Some may go so far as to heed the propaganda insofar as that it's external aggressors that are causing all of NK's current problems or that it's internal "antagonizers" and "counter-revolutionaries" (a favorite scapegoat of Kim Il-sung when shit wasn't going right that's made its way into official propaganda) - but others may acknowledge that the leadership is to blame. But it's still their country. Even some defectors say that they'd like to be able to go home again, if whatever problem that drove them out was fixed.

It's not a question of "are they brainwashed sheeple or are they free thinking euphorics" - North Korea was born of Stalinism imported into a country colonized by a foreign power and hardened by a war they nearly lost to "imperialist aggressors" and sustained by decades of positive economic growth when compared to the "other", "occupied" Korea. Kim Il-sung earned his "revolutionary cred" as an anti-Japanese guerrilla fighter and Japan is still enemy #1, even over South Korea and the United States. Nationalism born of oppression is a powerful, and unifying force and the occupation left a profound mark on North Korea - one that's felt even among the most disillusioned socialists there. Saying something like "it works and they all march in lock step behind a picture of the great leader" or "they have to know it's all a sham" isn't giving it enough nuance. These are people, and people are complicated. The nature of the propaganda is complicated. Every defector has a reason to do it - every person who's considered defecting but hasn't has a reason to do it.

EDIT - A good read on the subject of North Korean propaganda is The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why it Matters by B.R. Myers. Definitely a little more academically dry than engaging but it's a really close look at the nuance of NK propaganda and the source for some of the above.

 

[Cosmos]

Remaking since the French, allies of the dang dirty US, hate our Fearless Leader Kim Jong Un.

I don't recall what was stated in the OP, but here were some things discussed last thread:

• What would happen if/when North Korea collapses in on itself
• The extent North Korean citizens actually believe government propaganda
• Juche ideology

I'm in the "most people buy into most of the shit, most of the time" camp. I think they know that things are better in the outside world than they are led to believe, but I suspect that they think that most of the black market media depictions of the outside world are just as spruced up as NK's own propaganda self-depictions. I think non-propaganda broadcasts are so totally outside their frame of references they think everything is just as big of a lie as the NK media is.

I have read statements/watched interviews by several North Korean escapees, and nearly all of them mentioned how they bought into the propaganda at least a little. But it wasn't in the way that you would expect; it's mostly fear-based. As we all know, North Korea is built upon the cult of personality of the Kim family; the dictator is said to be an all-knowing god. And because surveillance can only go so far, children are told that Dear Leader can actually read their thoughts. This idea is so continually enforced that former North Koreans have reported being too scared to even think about wanting to leave. It's only when they "get away" with thinking such thoughts that they realize that Dear Leader isn't as omniscient as they say he is.

Also, I've read that many North Koreans buy into the propaganda that the United States, Europe, South Korea, and basically the entire rest of the world want to attack and harm them, and that the Kims are the only thing that's keeping them safe. Many of them don't realize that the opposite is true; the rest of the world is extremely concerned about their living conditions and wants to help them.

Oh, and here's a really interesting short documentary about a girl named Yeonmi Park, who escaped North Korea and went on to become a South Korean television personality who tries to educate people on what's going on.

 

[RanceSK]

I remember reading this IAMA on Reddit about a North Korean escapee, she said she realized she was being lied to when supplies were flown in to aid North Koreans during the famine and on the back there was an expiration date. In North Korea, you're supposed to eat everything immediately. She said when she escaped she was scared to cross the river to go to China, because propaganda instilled into her said that she would die or something. Crazy propaganda, like I remember watching propaganda and it said all Americans lived in shoddy tents and drank nothing but dirty water and some shitty good that I can't recall. It went on about how dangerous America and other countries were, and how they want to only destroy the America. The sad part is that it seems most North Koreans to some extent sincerely believe everything, and there's nothing we can really do. The only country that has any real sway over North Korea is China, and it wasn't too long ago that they were just as bad.

 

[Guardian G.I.]

I have read statements/watched interviews by several North Korean escapees, and nearly all of them mentioned how they bought into the propaganda at least a little. But it wasn't in the way that you would expect; it's mostly fear-based. As we all know, North Korea is built upon the cult of personality of the Kim family; the dictator is said to be an all-knowing god. And because surveillance can only go so far, children are told that Dear Leader can actually read their thoughts. This idea is so continually enforced that former North Koreans have reported being too scared to even think about wanting to leave. It's only when they "get away" with thinking such thoughts that they realize that Dear Leader isn't as omniscient as they say he is.

Also, I've read that many North Koreans buy into the propaganda that the United States, Europe, South Korea, and basically the entire rest of the world want to attack and harm them, and that the Kims are the only thing that's keeping them safe. Many of them don't realize that the opposite is true; the rest of the world is extremely concerned about their living conditions and wants to help them.

Oh, and here's a really interesting short documentary about a girl named Yeonmi Park, who escaped North Korea and went on to become a South Korean television personality who tries to educate people on what's going on.

Actually, from what I've read, many North Koreans, especially nowadays, are very much aware of the conditions outside the country and the shortcomings of their economic and political system - after all, foreign films, music and other media are constantly smuggled into the country. People aren't blaming specifically KJU for their problems, though (for now), although there's a lot of grumbling directed towards local authorities.

---
Andrei Lankov, a Russian professor and an expert in Korean studies working in a Seoul university with reliable contacts in both Koreas, reported back in 2010 about the existence of returnees - people who fled to the South, couldn't get a normal life there and chose to return back to the North.
Life in South Korea for the refugees from the North is hard - due to the development gap between the countries, they have to be taught skills like "how to use an ATM" or "what to buy in South Korean shops". Their education is obviously worthless in the eyes of Southern employers, so they have to take low-paying and unprestigious menial jobs; many remain unemployed. Due to the division, even the dialects of the two Koreas become more and more different with time (I've seen South Koreans who couldn't understand a word of spoken North Korean dialect) - that adds a language barrier into the long list of refugees' problems. Furthermore, many Southerners view the DPRK as a completely foreign country, so the refugees end up being either discriminated or completely ignored by the society.

Many people get depressed and very disillusioned - the life depicted in South Korean soap operas turns out to be unreachable. Some people try to hold on no matter what, saving up money to smuggle their relatives out of the DPRK, but a few people decide to return. To do this, they fly to Beijing with their new South Korean passport and go to the North Korean embassy. After returning to the North, their fate is pretty ambiguous: some are imprisoned, but in the recent years, the North Korean government started to use them in their propaganda as a proof of bad living conditions in the "US-occupied" South. Many returnees get amnesty and are allowed to settle back home (presumably under heavy surveillance), and some folks are employed to read pre-written propaganda lectures about the horrors of living in South Korea at local Party meetings. Even though these texts are produced by state propaganda writers, they are based on actual issues faced by refugees, and aren't complete fiction.

 

[nad7155]

"Tea Girl"

That is all.

 

[Alex Krycek]

As I understand it, there was a huge North Korean refugee group in Viet Nam that the government was initially tolerant of but it started cracking down on when a lot of the refugees got involved with the local drug trade. I have no idea what became of them, but I know that in Viet Nam the penalty for smuggling or distributing drugs is usually death so that may have actually saved them by being Deported.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

North Korea is a remnant of the Cold War, that simply refuses to die, it's just dying. It is basically a racist, militarist and theocratic monarchy.

 

[Wallace]

A collapsed NK would mean several things:

For SK, the cost of re-absorbing NK would be insane. NK is a wasteland, and no one wants to pay the money to unfuck it. The US could, and would pay to keep SK afloat if they were on the hook to rescue NK, but the cost to the American taxpayers would make people here shit bricks. There is also less sentiment to reunite SK with NK, as any families that have been split by the border are dying off and finally drifting apart for good.

For China, it would mean millions of refugees coming to China. Again, ridiculously expensive. China might be able to afford it, but they sure don't want to pay for it. China also wants NK as a buffer against SK, a strong US ally full of US military bases.

Japan would also probably get dragged into paying for rebuilding NK, and they certainly don’t want to pay for that either.

NK is not afraid of the US. NK is afraid of China. NK is worried that China will get rid of the Kims and set up a puppet state; partially as a buffer, but also to keep NK refugees from spilling over into China and costing a huge amount of money.

Whenever NK does something exceptional, pay attention to their demands. They always want to negotiate with the US and only the US. They want unilateral talks with the US so they can then tell China to back off because the US is backing NK. Or sort of backing NK. NK just wants to get some kind of a deal going with the US as a way to intimidate China into leaving them alone.

The US is wise to this and we don't want to piss off China by taking sides with NK. China is much too big of a trading partner to pee in that well. So when NK does something exceptional and demands negotiations only with the US, you'll see State reply that negotiations will only be held with NK if China, SK, and Japan are also involved.

This little pissing match has been going on for a long time. NK is not crazy or stupid. Not even close. But they aren't going to play the US off China and nobody wants to pay to modernize NK, so that's why things are the way they are.

 

[AnOminous]

A collapsed NK would mean several things:

For SK, the cost of re-absorbing NK would be insane. NK is a wasteland, and no one wants to pay the money to unfuck it. The US could, and would pay to keep SK afloat if they were on the hook to rescue NK, but the cost to the American taxpayers would make people here shit bricks. There is also less sentiment to reunite SK with NK, as any families that have been split by the border are dying off and finally drifting apart for good.

Unfortunately, this is true. Reuniting East and West Germany was a nightmare, but doable. However, while West Germany was certainly in much better economic shape, they were still both modern industrial states.

North Korea is more like a third world country. It would be like reuniting West Germany with Ethiopia.

It wouldn't come back up to speed for generations.

This little pissing match has been going on for a long time. NK is not crazy or stupid. Not even close. But they aren't going to play the US off China and nobody wants to pay to modernize NK, so that's why things are the way they are.

NK is both crazy and stupid. You don't end up turning your country into the worst country on the planet, a shithole worse than anything but maybe Somalia, by being sane and smart. (And frankly, I'd rather live, or try to live, in even Somalia than North Korea.)

 

[XYZpdq]

My favorite part about DPRK prognosticating is that pretty much any rando online has as good a chance of guessing as anybody else.

Did KJI end up killing off as many people after taking over from KIS like KJU has? Because it seems like KJU's been going through the upper cadre like water.

 

[Flowers For Sonichu]

There is a North Korean restaurant here in Shanghai. The government owns it, and the staff of pretty waitresses are "unpaid interns" from University who spend a semester in Shanghai. Even though it doesn't pay at all and you're basically a glorified slave, it's considered a prestigious position. They live in government-owned housing and are not allowed to leave work/home without an escort due to fear of defection. I've been really tempted to go there, but I don't want to enable Kim Jong Un's fuckery.

 

[AnOminous]

There is a North Korean restaurant here in Shanghai. The government owns it, and the staff of pretty waitresses are "unpaid interns" from University who spend a semester in Shanghai. Even though it doesn't pay at all and you're basically a glorified slave, it's considered a prestigious position. They live in government-owned housing and are not allowed to leave work/home without an escort due to fear of defection. I've been really tempted to go there, but I don't want to enable Kim Jong Un's fuckery.

It's pathetic it's allowed to exist like that, since I'd imagine a lot of the people working there did it in the desperate hope of a chance to defect.

Torturing people like that should be illegal.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

It's pathetic it's allowed to exist like that, since I'd imagine a lot of the people working there did it in the desperate hope of a chance to defect.

Torturing people like that should be illegal.

It's like dangling an expensive steak before the face of a starving man.