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What makes someone a "fake tranny"? What makes someone a "real tranny"?
Feel free to use cows as examples.
Feel free to use cows as examples.
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Both of them suffer from mental disorders (autogynephiliacs versus gender dysphoria), but one of them is more accepted by society than the other so the latter get called 'real trannies' while the former gets called fake trannies. That's about it, really.
And since there is no proof whatsoever that transitioning helps in any tangible ways (many studies show suicide rates go up the more they buy into this whole myth), neither of them should be encouraged to go down that path and instead learn to deal with their conditions.
If someone tells you they have race dysphoria and they are not white but really black, you don't give them a bunch of mixtapes and 10 free coupons for a tanning booth. If someone tells you they have egyptian ruler dysphoria you don't give them a snake headband and build them pyramids. When people tell you they have gender dysphoria you shouldn't pretend that yes they are in fact women in men's body or vice versa, you should give them treatment to accept who they are.
And since there is no proof whatsoever that transitioning helps in any tangible ways (many studies show suicide rates go up the more they buy into this whole myth), neither of them should be encouraged to go down that path and instead learn to deal with their conditions.
If someone tells you they have race dysphoria and they are not white but really black, you don't give them a bunch of mixtapes and 10 free coupons for a tanning booth. If someone tells you they have egyptian ruler dysphoria you don't give them a snake headband and build them pyramids. When people tell you they have gender dysphoria you shouldn't pretend that yes they are in fact women in men's body or vice versa, you should give them treatment to accept who they are.
I would say that a real tranny is someone with the capability to get a trustable diagnosis of gender dysphoria from a medical doctor.
I say "capability", because not every potential transperson has seen a doctor, but they qualify solidly enough.
I say "trustable", because there's always doctors out there that are essentially "diagnosis for money" setups. Like for cannabis prescriptions, for example.
However, this definition probably isn't very useful if you're not a doctor yourself. So you should probably just be respectful of people, provided they seem to be putting in effort and are sane and polite. Like, not like the Kyles or ADFs in the world (and in tumblr).
I say "capability", because not every potential transperson has seen a doctor, but they qualify solidly enough.
I say "trustable", because there's always doctors out there that are essentially "diagnosis for money" setups. Like for cannabis prescriptions, for example.
However, this definition probably isn't very useful if you're not a doctor yourself. So you should probably just be respectful of people, provided they seem to be putting in effort and are sane and polite. Like, not like the Kyles or ADFs in the world (and in tumblr).
It's not pretending if your standard of gender isn't 100% determined by biology.
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I hate to infest this discussion with Chris talk, but Chris is generally believed to be a "fake tranny". What are your thoughts on this. Do you think that there is a fair amount of "trannyshielding" going on and a-logging or do you think that it is fair to contend he is a "fake tranny"?
I would say that the difference is that a real tranny has their neurological development go the opposite way of their physical development for some reason
By contrast a fake tranny thinks feels like he was a failure as a man and tries to start over again as a woman. Another way of expressing it is that he resents that as a male he is the risk taking sex and he didn't get the large payoff and thinks that he can get a normal payoff as a tranny (despite that in reality he just goes to no payoff). I don't know how there could be a fake transman because women are the less risk taking sex but they may just be doing it to fit in
By contrast a fake tranny thinks feels like he was a failure as a man and tries to start over again as a woman. Another way of expressing it is that he resents that as a male he is the risk taking sex and he didn't get the large payoff and thinks that he can get a normal payoff as a tranny (despite that in reality he just goes to no payoff). I don't know how there could be a fake transman because women are the less risk taking sex but they may just be doing it to fit in
When a competent professional agrees you're trans.
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But it is, though.
Up until the 1920s, competent professionals believed it was a good thing to sterilize the mentally ill. A hundred years later, and you have 'competent professionals' who push for SRS too.
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I mean it seems to me that the psychologists that say whether or not you are indeed a tranny just seem to ask you enough questions to know it isn't a joke, or that no one else is making you do it. I don't even think they discount ulterior motives like, I wanna fuck straight men or I think I can backdoor into the lesbian community 
. I'm just saying it seems like a really low bar to legally pass the shrink tranny test. As long as you say you are, they let you do it, and never confront you about anything unless you're outright full of shit.
The fake vs real dilemma seems to come about as more of an argument of who we'll "approve" of as being transgender, which counters the extremely liberal definition of "if you think you're another gender, then you are" rule. Both are wrong approaches, but it's really hard to see where in the grey area the actual definition appears. Chris Chan is the ultimate example.
Chris lives his life in women's clothing, uses women's products, is attempting HRT, and self identifies as a woman. By the most liberal definition, that qualifies him as a tranny. Now, is he probably just sexually confused, and unable to succeed at fitting in with male gender roles? Probably. But the liberal definition that says if you say you're a tranny then you can never be doubted, which is the version Chris chooses to believe.
Another thing you have to realize is that what transgender people want out of it isn't a homogeneous experience. Some want to fully transition, some want a more genderfluid approach, some are only prepared to go so far to transition. So if you can't really define what transgender officially means, you can't really test it. You just have to let anyone who wants to say their transgender be included and not worry about fakers, and idiots who are so confused they can't figure out what gender they are.
I also think shitty at passing trannies seem to make everything worse. Take a look at CWC. He can't pass and ends up just being really disgusting and repulsive. Not just normal people are grossed out by him, he's repugnant to even other transgender people. His spiel about being a woman is whiney and annoying. His expression of his sexuality is creepy and uncomfortable at best. He is not a likeable guy, and it is really easy to decide, fuck this guy, he doesn't get to be a woman, cuz he's so shitty at it. But is it okay to disqualify people from transgender status, just cuz they're so fucking bad at it?
. I'm just saying it seems like a really low bar to legally pass the shrink tranny test. As long as you say you are, they let you do it, and never confront you about anything unless you're outright full of shit.The fake vs real dilemma seems to come about as more of an argument of who we'll "approve" of as being transgender, which counters the extremely liberal definition of "if you think you're another gender, then you are" rule. Both are wrong approaches, but it's really hard to see where in the grey area the actual definition appears. Chris Chan is the ultimate example.
Chris lives his life in women's clothing, uses women's products, is attempting HRT, and self identifies as a woman. By the most liberal definition, that qualifies him as a tranny. Now, is he probably just sexually confused, and unable to succeed at fitting in with male gender roles? Probably. But the liberal definition that says if you say you're a tranny then you can never be doubted, which is the version Chris chooses to believe.
Another thing you have to realize is that what transgender people want out of it isn't a homogeneous experience. Some want to fully transition, some want a more genderfluid approach, some are only prepared to go so far to transition. So if you can't really define what transgender officially means, you can't really test it. You just have to let anyone who wants to say their transgender be included and not worry about fakers, and idiots who are so confused they can't figure out what gender they are.
I also think shitty at passing trannies seem to make everything worse. Take a look at CWC. He can't pass and ends up just being really disgusting and repulsive. Not just normal people are grossed out by him, he's repugnant to even other transgender people. His spiel about being a woman is whiney and annoying. His expression of his sexuality is creepy and uncomfortable at best. He is not a likeable guy, and it is really easy to decide, fuck this guy, he doesn't get to be a woman, cuz he's so shitty at it. But is it okay to disqualify people from transgender status, just cuz they're so fucking bad at it?
I just deleted a ton of shitposts. Given our subjects- ADF and the like i will leave the thread open as the topic is of relevance and it is useful to have somewhere to put such posts when they arise in the wider forum.
That said should the the thread descend into shitposts and baitposts again i will lock it. Discussions on this subject have historically failed but its been some months since the last and im willing to give it another go.
That said should the the thread descend into shitposts and baitposts again i will lock it. Discussions on this subject have historically failed but its been some months since the last and im willing to give it another go.
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Given the population that inhabits KF and subjects we discuss I think this topic does have a lot of merit. Thanks for the clean-up.
The less someone has to assert or demand that they are transgender, the more legitimate they are. All of the "real trannies" I know, MtF and FtM alike, don't make "being transgender" a keystone of their personal and social identities. They just "are" for lack of a better description.
Actually, what you stated is a myth based on out-of-context quotes from studies that themselves advocate transitioning as a solution to gender dysphoria. Yes the number of suicides in post-op transsexuals is rather high, but so is that in pre-op. How high? It's hard to gauge since if someone doesn't seek medical help they're not going to be immediately recognized as trans so the numbers regarding it are difficult to ascertain, but most studies place them significantly lower.
The out-of-context bit that the whole idea that transitioning increases suicide comes from a wrongly-quoted statistic where post-op transgendered people are compared to non-transgendered people, so it's not a great comparison to gauge the effectiveness of transitioning. But yes, post-op suicide rates are still high. Said suicide rates are in this study revealed to be a result not from post-op regret like you appear to be implying, but more of social exclusion and rejection. This is further evidenced by statistics on 'passability' which are often treated by the same studies, where people who pass well post-transition actually have the lowest suicide rate among all transsexuals, transitioning or not. (the value people place on passability and the social exclusion of those who pass are almost certainly related).
Post-op/transition regret does happen, but it's a minority of the cases for sure. Usually if transition isn't 'for' someone they tend to discover it earlier on in transition, and many of the early effects of hormone treatment are reversed by just not taking hormone treatment anymore.
Overwhelmingly, the conclusion of these studies tends to be that gender transition can be an effective treatment against gender dysphoria, but there needs to be a higher degree of follow-up therapy and transition shouldn't be treated as the 'end of the road' type of thing.
I do agree that gender dysphoria is a sort of mental disorder though. By the amount of depression it often causes for many people there's no way it couldn't be.
As far as what constitutes a 'real' or a 'fake' transgendered person, it's very hard to judge really. I think, at least to me, the presence of gender dysphoria is the main deciding factor if someone should be considering medical transition, so I suppose you could say that it's those who suffer from gender dysphoria that are 'legitimately' transgendered. I think this is what medical experts tend to go by as well.
EDIT: fixed some mistakes.
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I'm sure there's lots of all that going on, plus lots of misinformation and misunderstandings about Chris' situation.
I think Chris is a lot more genuine in his tranny convictions than most people realize. I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say if he is trans or not. If I had to make a guess, I'd say Chris is probably not genuinely trans, and that a doctor would be more interested in the other, more significant mental disorders Chris probably has, instead of the possibility that he might be trans.
Well that's simply not established. You can't dictate language. Language is defined by usage.
Just because medicine (technology as well) isn't perfect at any one point, doesn't mean that the gamble to go with flawed medicine, over no medicine, isn't the correct decision.
There's a difference between just signing off on a gender change, versus giving an actual diagnosis. I would imagine the latter is a lot more thorough.I mean it seems to me that the psychologists that say whether or not you are indeed a tranny just seem to ask you enough questions to know it isn't a joke, or that no one else is making you do it. I don't even think they discount ulterior motives like, I wanna fuck straight men or I think I can backdoor into the lesbian community
This is certainly a problem. People should try to be as neutral as possible, and stick to considering the person's mental state, compared to how they look.
By mental state do you mean mentally aware they want to transition genders, or mentally capable of being able to understand what it's gonna mean/take to transition genders?
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The biggest ever review of studies about trannies & whether SRS was a proper treatment was done by the ARIF of Birmingham University on over 100 studies from all over the globe ranging over 30+ years.
They couldn't find a single study that showed that SRS was a proper treatment, decreased suicide rates or was a good solution. The vast majority of those studies found that the further people started to transition, the more they were likely to kill themselves, or attempt to. The highest at-risk group? Post-SRS. About 20% regretted going through with it, and 40% of them ended up trying to, or committing, suicide. The number of them who had regret was astronomically high.
A lot of it has to do with people (really, other trannies) painting a rosy picture as if you go under the knife and boom you end up with a vagina. When they wake up and look between their legs to see something that looks nothing like a vagina, that needs to be constantly dilated for the rest of their lives because it's a wound that their body is constantly trying to close up, prone to infections, host to bacteries hitherto unknown to doctors, on top of filthy odors, stuff leaking etc... it's a huge reality shock for a lot of them. And even those who live with it, then they grow older and start going bald and even though everyone might be calling them 'Madam', their bodies still goes according to their actual biology and its prostate cancer they have to look out for. More of them feel distress, more of them become suicidal, more of them actually attempt to kill their lives after the operation and not before.
Even not undergoing SRS but only SRT still makes you more likely to be suicidal because you're a man who is blocking the hormones your body is normally supposed to be producing in order to inject yourself with hormones your body is not supposed to be producing. It's been proven in study after study that it has a ton of severe psychological ramifications for those who undergo it.
The whole transition process is a medical monstrosity and very much goes against 'Do No Harm'. These people should undergo therapy and learn to accept to live how they were born, not enter an irreversible process that will forever scar them physically and mentally and makes it more likely for them to kill themselves.
Have you just ignored all the studies where such therapies have demonstrated net benefits?
The WPATH Standards of Care demonstrate that transition is the only known effective way to reduce gender dysphoria, and cites several studies. There's a lot of nuance in the claim that such-and-such study allegedly demonstrates people shouldn't be transitioning. A notable issue with the ARIF study is that most of these people were lost to follow-up; if you actually read them you can see they theorize (without proof) that suicide and other negative factors are responsible.
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Both.
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How about the literal hundreds that demonstrate that the benefits for the few result in the opposite in many more?
I'm not denying that some people can be helped by transition, but the scientific consensus is that the majority are not in better shape at best, or worse off.
Then surely the solution would be changing diagnostic standards, not discounting the very notion that trans people exist. We do exist and we benefit from therapies that are affirmative.
I assume that you're talking about the 2004 study. In that case you're completely misrepresenting what that says, and I'd urge you to re-read it, or at least read more information about it. It didn't sample over 100 studies. It looked into 100, only 2 of which it decided were up to its 'gold standard' (being peer reviewed and having a control group and a drop-out rate of less than 50%) and actually both of those studies actually argued in favour of medical transition. However the sample size was deemed too small to make conclusive statements about the matter, and hence it was considered inconclusive. The 20% regret is just flat-out false. Perhaps that was correct many years ago, but modern studies tend to place the percentage of those who regret the surgery below 10%. The highest risk group being post-srs is also flat-out false, which I already mentioned in my last post. The reason post-srs suicides are so high is because only post-srs are considered transsexuals in most medical studies. As a result post-srs transsexuals are compared to just dudes that crossdress, and obviously dudes that crossdress don't have gender dysphoria affecting them and as such their suicidal tendencies will be significantly lower.
No doubt this is the case for those that end up regretting the surgery, although as I said your percentages are off and I urge you to look into a modern study that uses currently-relevant information and statistics.
Again, this is flat-out false and leans on outdated or out-of-context information.
It's starting to seem to me like this is something you just want to believe because you don't like transgendered people, and that's completely your prerogative. This will be my last post on the matter as I don't want to derail this thread, but if I'm wrong I do urge you to look into new, more recent studies that use relevant numbers and statistics, and to not get fooled by out-of-context quotes from studies that say the exact opposite of what you're trying to convey. You can reply to this if you want, but I'm not going to further derail the thread so I'll leave it at that. Hope you got something out of it
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