Female Portrayals in Video Games -

[Trickie]

So, I think the issue has come up enough in other threads that I think we can safely say this topic could use its own thread. And in the interest of sparing Niachu from stress, I'd like to try to keep this thread serious, thoughtful, and sandwich joke free (Yes, @Satan, that means you and that video of @homerbeoulve eating a sandwich that you keep posting). Think we can we do that? Okay!

@Mama Luigi made a post in the SJW thread that piqued my interest.

Wrong, there are some (popular) games where there is no male option. Metroid, Tomb Raider, and lots more. Jesus, whoever wrote that has never played a video game.

While he claims that there are "lots more", I couldn't think of more than two or three popular games where you have no choice but to play as a female off the top of my head, so I went looking through a list of the 100 most popular games of 2013 to see if I could find more. Surely if there were as many as he claims I could find at least a small armful of them out of 100...

(List taken from this article from Metro)

1. Grand Theft Auto V (Rockstar) - Male Only
2. FIFA 14 (EA)- Male Only
3. Call Of Duty: Ghosts (Activision)- Mixed
4. Battlefield 4 (EA)- Male Only
5. Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag (Ubisoft)- Male Only
6. Tomb Raider (Square Enix)- Female Only
7. FIFA 13 (EA)- Male Only
8. Lego Marvel Super Heroes (WB Games)- Mixed
9. Minecraft: Xbox 360 Edition (Microsoft)- Mixed (Default skin is male, though)
10. The Last Of Us (Sony)- Mixed
11. Batman: Arkham Origins (WB Games)- Male Only (That I know of, still haven't played. If anyone knows different please let me know)
12. Call Of Duty: Black Ops II (Activision)- Mixed
13. Just Dance 2014 (Ubisoft)- Mixed
14. Far Cry 3 (Ubisoft)- Mixed (The only female playable character is in co-op mode, though, apart from that, total sausage fest)
15. Saints Row IV (Deep Silver)- Mixed
16. BioShock Infinite (2K Games)- Male Only
17. Killzone: Shadow Fall (Sony)- Mixed
18. Need for Speed: Rivals (EA)- Mixed
19. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (WB Games)- Mixed
20. Skylanders: Swap Force (Activision)- Mixed
21. Animal Crossing: New Leaf (Nintendo)- Mixed
22. Assassin’s Creed III (Ubisoft)- Male Only
23. Need For Speed: Most Wanted (EA)- Mixed
24. Disney Infinity (Disney)- Mixed
25. Lego The Lord Of The Rings (WB Games)- Mixed
26. Aliens: Colonial Marines (Sega)- Mixed
27. Pokémon X (Nintendo)- Mixed
28. WWE 2K14 (2K Games)- Mixed
29. Pokémon Y (Nintendo)- Mixed
30. Dead Island: Riptide (Deep Silver)- Mixed
31. Halo 4 (Microsoft)- Male Only
32. Splinter Cell: Blacklist (Ubisoft)- Male Only
33. Hitman Absolution (Square Enix)- Male Only
34. Luigi’s Mansion 2 (Nintendo)- Male Only (No, pink Luigi does not count)
35. Gears Of War: Judgment (Microsoft)- Mixed
36. Crysis 3 (EA)- Male Only
37. Just Dance 4 (Ubisoft)- Mixed
38. Skylanders Giants (Activision)- Mixed
39. Football Manager 2014 (Sega)- N/A
40. Dead Space 3 (EA)- Male Only
41. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (Bethesda)- Mixed
42. Gran Turismo 6 (Sony)- Mixed
43. Forza Motorsport 5 (Microsoft)- Mixed
44. Grand Theft Auto IV (Rockstar)- Male Only
45. Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed (Sega)- Mixed
46. Injustice: Gods Among Us (WB Games)- Mixed
47. Max Payne 3 (Rockstar)- Male Only
48. Grand Theft Auto Episodes: Liberty City (Rockstar)- Male Only
49. God Of War: Ascension (Sony)- Male Only
50. F1 2013 (Codemasters)- Mixed
51. Football Manager 2013 (Sega)- N/A
52. Mario Kart 7 (Nintendo)- Mixed
53. Rayman Legends (Ubisoft)- Mixed
54. Dead Rising 3 (Microsoft)- Mixed (In DLC only, I think)
55. Forza Horizon (Microsoft)- Mixed
56. Medal Of Honor: Warfighter (EA)- Male Only (That I'm aware of, haven't played much of this one)
57. Red Dead Redemption: Game Of The Year Edition (Rockstar)- Male Only
58. Battlefield 3 (EA)- Male Only
59. The Legend Of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds (Nintendo)- Male Only
60. GRID 2 (Codemasters)- Mixed
61. Diablo III (Blizzard)- Mixed
62. New Super Mario Bros. 2 (Nintendo)- Male Only
63. SimCity (EA)- N/A
64. The Sims 3 (EA)- N/A
65. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (Konami)- Male Only
66. Lego City Undercover: The Chase Begins (Nintendo)- Mixed
67. Sniper: Ghost Warrior 2 (City Interactive)- Male Only (as far as I know)
68. Angry Birds Star Wars (Activision)- ?! (I'm no expert on Angry Birds, but I'm fairly certain they're all male...)
69. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim – Legendary Edition (Bethesda)- Mixed
70. WWE ’13 (THQ)- Mixed
71. Gran Turismo 5 Academy Edition (Sony)- Mixed
72. Sonic Generations (Sega)- Mixed
73. Sleeping Dogs (Square Enix)- Male Only
74. Dead Island: Game Of The Year Edition (Deep Silver)- Mixed
75. Defiance (Trion Worlds)- Mixed
76. Borderlands 2 (2K Games)- Mixed
77. Dishonored (Bethesda)- Male Only
78. Beyond: Two Souls (Sony)- Mixed (Yes, Aiden counts)
79. Ryse: Son Of Rome (Microsoft)- Male Only
80. Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (Activision)- Male Only
81. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 14 (EA)- Mixed
82. Knack (Sony)- Male Only
83. Moshi Monsters: Moshling’s Theme Park (Mind Candy)- Mixed
84. Forza Motorsport 4 (Microsoft)- Mixed
85. Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 (WB Games)- Mixed
86. Disney Epic Mickey 2: The Power Of Two (Disney)- Male Only
87. Mario & Sonic At The London 2012 Olympic Games (Sega)- Mixed
88. Payday 2 (505 Games)- Male Only
89. Pro Evolution Soccer 2014 (Konami)- Male Only
90. Professor Layton And The Azran Legacy (Nintendo)- Mixed
91. The Smurfs 2 (Ubisoft)- Mixed
92. Batman: Arkham City: Game Of The Year Edition (WB Games)- Mixed
93. Super Mario 3D Land (Nintendo)- Male Only
94. New Super Mario Bros. U (Nintendo)- Male Only (The two Toad characters aren't explicitly gendered)
95. DmC Devil May Cry (Capcom)- Male Only
96. Metro: Last Light (Deep Silver)- Mixed (DLC only, I think)
97. Super Mario 3D World (Nintendo)- Mixed
98. NBA 2K14 (2K Sports)- Male Only
99. The Sims 3: University Life (EA)- N/A
100. Resident Evil 6 (Capcom)- Mixed

Notice all the red and purple down the list, and the fact that there was only one game in this list that came out last year that could be thought of as "female only". Hell, I was actually pretty generous with this list, especially considering that you can play as a male character in Tomb Raider's multiplayer, and could easily have counted it as "Mixed".

And even most the games with playable characters of both genders, the star character is usually a guy, and any playable female characters are shunted to either multiplayer skins, or are sharing the supporting cast spotlight with about 3-4 males. One of the few exceptions here being that Aiden from Beyond: Two Souls is more of a background character, and is basically invisible.

The female representation of video game characters has admittedly gotten better over the years, if this were a list from the early 2000's or late 90's you'd see a lot more red, a lot less purple, and almost no blue. Slowly but surely, we're getting there, but don't trick yourself into thinking there's no problem just because you can name about a dozen good video games that feature a female as the main protagonist.

 

[CatParty]

Didn't we do this already and it got locked?

 

[Trickie]

Didn't we do this already and it got locked?

There was a general "Feminism" thread that got locked after we got into the topic of video games and feminism, but I assume that's because people kept posting sandwich jokes for a few pages.

EDIT: If the video games and feminism stuff was what got the thread locked though, I'm sure they'll lock this one too.

 

[CatParty]

I assume this will go the same way

 

[Trickie]

I assume this will go the same way

Perhaps, but I wanted to at least try to make a separate thread instead of derailing other threads when someone makes a comment about women in video games that I wanted to respond to.

 

[Bosnian Wizard]

I think it's more of a problem with the media in general than just videogames. Videogames tend to either be like action films, or like sports. Action films are dominated by men, and popular sports are dominated by men.

Look at this list, like yours, but for the highest grossing films:

1. Avatar - Male
2. Titanic - Mixed
3. Marvel's Avengers - Mostly Male
4. Harry Potter Deathly Hallows 2 - Male (but with a prominent female character)
5. Iron Man 3 - Male
6. Frozen - Female
7. Transformers: Dark Side of the Moon - Male
8. LotR: Return of the King - Male
9. Skyfall - Male
10. The Dark Knight Rises - Male
11. Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Mans Chest - Male (but with a prominent female character)
12. Toy Story 3 - Male
13. Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - Male (but with a prominent female character)
14. Jurassic Park - Mixed
15. Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace - Male
16. Alice in Wonderland - Female
17. The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Male
18. The Dark Knight - Male
19. The Lion King - Male
20. Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone - Male (but with a prominent female character)

As you can see, the list is dominated by films with male lead characters, with the more diverse films at best having a major female character who isn't simply a love interest. I don't think it's just an issue videogames have to tackle, it's an issue with society in general.

 

[Trickie]

I think it's more of a problem with the media in general than just videogames. Videogames tend to either be like action films, or like sports. Action films are dominated by men, and popular sports are dominated by men.

Look at this list, like yours, but for the highest grossing films:

1. Avatar - Male
2. Titanic - Mixed
3. Marvel's Avengers - Mostly Male
4. Harry Potter Deathly Hallows 2 - Male (but with a prominent female character)
5. Iron Man 3 - Male
6. Frozen - Female
7. Transformers: Dark Side of the Moon - Male
8. LotR: Return of the King - Male
9. Skyfall - Male
10. The Dark Knight Rises - Male
11. Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Mans Chest - Male (but with a prominent female character)
12. Toy Story 3 - Male
13. Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - Male (but with a prominent female character)
14. Jurassic Park - Mixed
15. Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace - Male
16. Alice in Wonderland - Female
17. The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Male
18. The Dark Knight - Male
19. The Lion King - Male
20. Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone - Male (but with a prominent female character)

As you can see, the list is dominated by films with male lead characters, with the more diverse films at best having a major female character who isn't simply a love interest. I don't think it's just an issue videogames have to tackle, it's an issue with society in general.

Well, I don't think you can really equate the two entirely. Movies and television are experienced by sitting back and observing, while the events might be seen through the point of view of one of the characters, as a viewer, you're nothing more than a spectator. In a video game, your role is a much more personal one, and while ultimately you don't often get to make a lot of meaningful decisions about how the story turns out, it's almost always the case that whether the hero wins or loses is up to you. It's up to you to overcome the character's obstacles and fight the monsters, and this makes the experience a lot more personal. Your actions control what your character does on screen, and therefore the character becomes a part of you in a way that isn't expressed in any other part of the medium, and is therefore far more personal.

I won't say that this isn't a problem in movies and TV, but in my mind, being able to relate to a video game character has far more weight than it does in other media.

 

[exball]

Does it really matter?

 

[Trickie]

Does it really matter?

I'm sorry, but does what really matter? Could you be more specific?

Or was this a rhetorical question about everything in general, and you just needed to express the soul crushing nihilism that has been weighing on your mind?

 

[Observers]

I'm sorry, but does what really matter? Could you be more specific?

Or was this a rhetorical question about everything in general, and you just needed to express the soul crushing nihilism that has been weighing on your mind?

Trickie,

What I am about to say i ask in all seriousness it is not meant as a joke or sarcasm.

This issue of woman in video games seems to be important to you and i am curious as to why. Every person seems to have issues that they want to fight for, or crusades that need to be fought. Most of the time when i game the characters are ether customizable (fallout, neverwinter nights etc) or i am playing an entity (like a country/kingdom/empire) So I really never have run into this problem. (which does not mean it does not exist)

I chose my forum name carefully because i really do enjoy observing and learning about people. I respect people with fire over issues especially ones who openly discuss controversial issues with evidence pose and civilized tone.

As I have little to no real view on this issue i guess i was just curious and dialogue is always a great way to learn something new. So why does this issue bring out the fire/passion?

 

[Protoman]

Gonna try to keep this thread civil by making a well-reasoned argument. I disagree with you but I can respect your opinion and I can see why you would feel the way you do. I hope that anyone else who disagrees with you keeps this in mind when responding. It's always nice to have discussion, but civility matters a whole helluva lot if any hope of even mild intellectuality is to be had in a hot-button conversation like this.

I feel holding video games to a different standard than other mediums is incredibly unfair. The question isn't so much "do video games have this issue" as it is "is this an issue that's particularly endemic to or at least emphasized in video games and video game culture." When you start focusing on gamers and start saying "you are bad and sexist and your subculture of choice is inherently against women, look at all these games that don't have female protagonists" you're starting the wrong conversation in the wrong way.

I think the real problem here is this: you're focusing on AAA titles.

AAA titles, blockbuster movies, etc. all have the following problem: They cost a whole helluva lot of money to make. When you're investing a lot of money into a project that could potentially determine the future of your company, you're going to want to play it safe. In our culture, male protatgonists are safe. They're what we've had in most of our stories in most of our mediums for the last two millennia. It's what people expect. Investors like getting things they expect. They like seeing the twentieth call of battlefield 2: modern honor game because it means their stocks are going to go up, slowly and steadily. They don't like risk. Corporate content creators are always going to listen to their investors above anything else.

In short: The creators of games aren't sexists, they're capitalists.

That being said, just like in movies, there are plenty of fantastic, well-received or highly anticipated independent titles that have strong female protagonists. Particularly notable are the following:

• Transistor
• Severed
• Child of Light
• To the Moon (technically mixed, but the more responsible, level-headed, competent of the two protagonists is female.)
• Broken Age

Furthermore, there's some mainstream games that are seen as masterpieces/have strong, strong cult followings that have strong female characters. I won't bother pulling the obvious ones like Samus and female-option characters like femshep.

• Jade (Beyond Good and Evil, Protagonist)
• Chell (Portal, Protagonist)
• GLADoS (Portal, Antagonist/Deuteragonist)
• Alyx Vance (Half-life, Deuteragonist)
• Bayonetta (Bayonetta, Protagonist)
• Faith (Mirror's Edge, Protagonist)
• Heather (Silent Hill 3, Protagonist)
• Alice (American McGee's Alice Series)
• Lilith (Borderlands, Borderlands 2, Optional protagonist)
• Maya (Borderlands 2, Optional protagonist)
• Clementine (The Walking Dead, Deuteragonist, The Walking Dead Season 2, Protagonist)

So no, Call of Duty and FIFA don't have strong female protagonists. But there are plenty of fantastic games that do.

 

[Trickie]

Trickie,

What I am about to say i ask in all seriousness it is not meant as a joke or sarcasm.

This issue of woman in video games seems to be important to you and i am curious as to why. Every person seems to have issues that they want to fight for, or crusades that need to be fought. Most of the time when i game the characters are ether customizable (fallout, neverwinter nights etc) or i am playing an entity (like a country/kingdom/empire) So I really never have run into this problem. (which does not mean it does not exist)

I chose my forum name carefully because i really do enjoy observing and learning about people. I respect people with fire over issues especially ones who openly discuss controversial issues with evidence pose and civilized tone.

As I have little to no real view on this issue i guess i was just curious and dialogue is always a great way to learn something new. So why does this issue bring out the fire/passion?

Well... I think, to begin with, I should say that I'm a bit of a video game enthusiast— almost an evangelist, actually. In the past, I've been known to buy games for friends that I really want them to try, just to watch their reaction and discuss it with them. I'm a little nuts like that, and I think it's mostly because I grew up on them, but it's also because they're so versatile. A video game can be anything from a casual game you can use to occupy your eyes and hands while listening to an audiobook, to an engaging interactive epic that you can get lost in, to a sort of non-physical sport that you can play with friends, no empty fields or nets or balls required, just your bodies and the hardware needed to run it. Even beyond that, there's still a lot of potential for video games, particularly in the realm of education and other things.

I'm also a transsexual, meaning that I lived as a male for quite a lot of my life, so issues surrounding societal and individual views of gender were already playing an important role in my life even before I became fascinated by the issue of feminism and gender equality. I also got the rare chance to experience gaming culture as a guy and as a girl, and I can't say it was much of a pleasant experience.

At times I felt like I was being honed in on, like walking into a room and feeling everyone's eyes suddenly turn to you and stare at you. Suddenly it was okay to send me pics of their penises, and tell me, sometimes in very good detail, what they'd like to do to me. I had my "gamer cred" scrutinized for the first time in my life. It felt like every time I was either being given unwanted attention, someone was either trying to solicit some kind of weird cybersex, or putting me on a pedestal, or dismissing me, or talking down to me, or doing something that made it clear that I was not accepted as a member of the group.

Of course, very little of this was very traumatizing. I'm not exactly trying to say this was a huge injustice that was done to me, but it was annoying to say the least, and it's one of the reasons I feel like women don't usually feel comfortable getting into gamer culture, and I think a lot of women are missing out on something that can enrich their lives.

I think this is why I feel so strongly about recognizing the problem we have with the way the gaming industry and gamers themselves are treating women. I think we're chasing away a lot of people who don't deserve to be chased away.

Granted, this issue isn't exactly as pressing as global warming or breast cancer research or the mistreatment of gays in places like Uganda (not that I'm not concerned or involved in said issues), but feminism in video games one of the issues that's closest to me, and I think that you can only get so involved in a fight that isn't yours. As much as I'd love to get heavily involved in the way Uganda is criminalizing homosexuality, at some point I kind of have to say "I'm not Ugandan, and strictly speaking I'm not even homosexual, and I don't know enough first hand to really feel like I have the right to butt in."

So uh, .... long rant. Hope I was able to answer your question Observers.

 

[BT 075]

I honestly don't see the point. This is not something that couldn't be discussed just fine in the SJW thread. As for the whole feminism debate, we pretty much went over it and I think it's a pointless discussion to have. Nobody in their right mind would be opposed to the core principle of feminism, which from my understanding is for the male and female gender to be on an equal footing.

There's really not much about this topic that I feel is worth discussing, that cannot be discussed in already existing threads.

 

[Observers]

Well... I think, to begin with, I should say that I'm a bit of a video game enthusiast— almost an evangelist, actually. In the past, I've been known to buy games for friends that I really want them to try, just to watch their reaction and discuss it with them. I'm a little nuts like that, and I think it's mostly because I grew up on them, but it's also because they're so versatile. A video game can be anything from a casual game you can use to occupy your eyes and hands while listening to an audiobook, to an engaging interactive epic that you can get lost in, to a sort of non-physical sport that you can play with friends, no empty fields or nets or balls required, just your bodies and the hardware needed to run it. Even beyond that, there's still a lot of potential for video games, particularly in the realm of education and other things.

I definitely agree, I never wanted to learn higher level math (trig, calculus) until i started playing space simulation games. Learning how physics worked and seeing it really helped wrap my mind around it. Though I will admit it made it a lot harder to appreciate science fiction once you realized real life physics lol

I'm also a transsexual, meaning that I lived as a male for quite a lot of my life, so issues surrounding societal and individual views of gender were already playing an important role in my life even before I became fascinated by the issue of feminism and gender equality. I also got the rare chance to experience gaming culture as a guy and as a girl, and I can't say it was much of a pleasant experience.

I can see how your experience in being transsexual would also mix over with the issues you bring up in gamer culture. Though i never really was a member of gamer culture (most games i played at one time were not that popular in the states so i was a fringe element)

*ha fringe ba dum tish*

Of course, very little of this was very traumatizing. I'm not exactly trying to say this was a huge injustice that was done to me, but it was annoying to say the least, and it's one of the reasons I feel like women don't usually feel comfortable getting into gamer culture, and I think a lot of women are missing out on something that can enrich their lives.

I can understand that. TBH being a man there is a lot of gamer culture that i do not like. For example MMO's. Let me clarify I can not get sucked into those games and spend the amount of time many people do. So when i play I am constantly made fun of because "I lack skillz and am total noob etc" Once again as you said its not traumatizing it just makes me not want to play. Though I think the star trek MMO looks fun.

I know that's a totally different issue, but i think gamer culture in general is very judgmental at times. I feel people act this way especially when they do not have control of there real world lives. They get power and a feeling of control by destroying others for many petty reasons. And its not always a male female thing. (as stated this is only an opinion it does not take away any issues woman are having in that culture)

I think this is why I feel so strongly about recognizing the problem we have with the way the gaming industry and gamers themselves are treating women. I think we're chasing away a lot of people who don't deserve to be chased away.

I agree 100%, plus from a non human cold business side alienating 50% market share is a stupid business move.
Hopefully the indy gaming community will start to pick up the slack were the big companies left off. Most games i buy now are indy as the big companies just do not speak to me anymore

Granted, this issue isn't exactly as pressing as global warming or breast cancer research or the mistreatment of gays in places like Uganda (not that I'm not concerned or involved in said issues), but feminism in video games one of the issues that's closest to me, and I think that you can only get so involved in a fight that isn't yours. As much as I'd love to get heavily involved in the way Uganda is criminalizing homosexuality, at some point I kind of have to say "I'm not Ugandan, and strictly speaking I'm not even homosexual, and I don't know enough first hand to really feel like I have the right to butt in."

I will never judge someone on there crusade if they fight it with facts/pose/and fair debate. The truth is there is little we can do in Uganda, and other places in the world. Our fights here at home may seem trivial compared to a warlord in the next village who is intent on killing you. But they are still fights that need to be seen. I for one am a strong supporter of third party systems in the US and constitutional reform my issue is no more important or less important then yours .

The important thing to remember is you have a voice. No one ever has a right to silence that voice. That is why i really can not stand SJW on tumblr there whole goal is to win by shutting others up.

This issue is important to you, you have every right to voice your opinion. (and you voice your opinion well from what i have seen)

At times I may not agree with everything you say, But i really appreciate you taking the time out to let me see why you feel so strongly towards this. The big problem in discussions like these is the fact we forget that the other side feels as strongly as we do about our side, and like us they are people who have been shaped by there life experiences. Now that i know were you stand and why, our dialogue will always have common ground in one way or another, so even if i disagree i will see you as a person with experiences rather then an avatar on a cwcki forum (I hope that makes sense lol)

Thank you for your post i really do appreciate your answer/explanations. They have given me something to think about in a way I did not think before

 

[Anchuent Christory]

I've always seen it as a catch 22 situation. The gaming community is predominantly male, so games are generally designed with a male perspective in mind, which in turn means the community will continue to remain predominantly male. There's also the undeniable fact that despite the computer game industry being massive there's still a significant social stigma attached to being a "gamer" and it's still stuck in the nerdy, male territory.

 

[Takayuki Yagami]

Does the "Tropes vs. Women" lady still not cite her sources?

 

[Venusaur]

I also got the rare chance to experience gaming culture as a guy and as a girl, and I can't say it was much of a pleasant experience.

At times I felt like I was being honed in on, like walking into a room and feeling everyone's eyes suddenly turn to you and stare at you. Suddenly it was okay to send me pics of their penises, and tell me, sometimes in very good detail, what they'd like to do to me. I had my "gamer cred" scrutinized for the first time in my life. It felt like every time I was either being given unwanted attention, someone was either trying to solicit some kind of weird cybersex, or putting me on a pedestal, or dismissing me, or talking down to me, or doing something that made it clear that I was not accepted as a member of the group.

Of course, very little of this was very traumatizing. I'm not exactly trying to say this was a huge injustice that was done to me, but it was annoying to say the least, and it's one of the reasons I feel like women don't usually feel comfortable getting into gamer culture, and I think a lot of women are missing out on something that can enrich their lives.

That's quite an interesting background you have there, not many people can say they've experience gaming culture from boh sides. It must have been an interesting experience. As for this female prtrayals in video games...It's always difficult to discuss it in anyway because of the outright hostility it seems to encounter. Lots of radical feminists really haven't helped things along by coming up as crazy psychos or ignorant about video games. It's just made it easier to attack people when they attempt to discuss the topic. It doesn't help that there might be a lot of views among female gamers on certain things.

For example, one of the gripes I keep seeing is the whole "Sexily dressed females in video games". The "females characters in video games" thread on this forum has some great examples. Lots of female characters in video games have enough clothing to reveal the naughty bits, but plenty of skin to show. Some women feel that this objectifies women, renders the characters as sexist and indicates that the characters were just made to fulfill some male fantasy.

But my problem with some of these scantly dressed girls is that it makes me think of this:

Spoiler

Everytime.

 

[Trickie]

Okay, busy night tonight, but I'll try my best to respond fully to everyone soon, for now though...

I honestly don't see the point. This is not something that couldn't be discussed just fine in the SJW thread. As for the whole feminism debate, we pretty much went over it and I think it's a pointless discussion to have. Nobody in their right mind would be opposed to the core principle of feminism, which from my understanding is for the male and female gender to be on an equal footing.

There's really not much about this topic that I feel is worth discussing, that cannot be discussed in already existing threads.

I don't think this discussion could be held in the SJW thread. The discussion isn't really about crazy SJW's (Unless you're calling me one... ) and even in the Feminism thread, there were people wondering why we were talking about this in that thread.

As for there being no point in this discussion, I suppose there isn't from a certain point of view. I don't see the point in making my bed, particularly because I don't usually have strangers (or anyone for that matter) in my bedroom, but in the end you can say that anything is meaningless from calling shotgun for a 5 minute car ride to even life itself. Most people just kind of have to draw the line where they start to feel like their time is being wasted, and that can be a very subjective thing. After all, time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time, is it?

 

[Trickie]

Gonna try to keep this thread civil by making a well-reasoned argument. I disagree with you but I can respect your opinion and I can see why you would feel the way you do. I hope that anyone else who disagrees with you keeps this in mind when responding. It's always nice to have discussion, but civility matters a whole helluva lot if any hope of even mild intellectuality is to be had in a hot-button conversation like this.

Thank you. 100% agreed.

I feel holding video games to a different standard than other mediums is incredibly unfair. The question isn't so much "do video games have this issue" as it is "is this an issue that's particularly endemic to or at least emphasized in video games and video game culture." When you start focusing on gamers and start saying "you are bad and sexist and your subculture of choice is inherently against women, look at all these games that don't have female protagonists" you're starting the wrong conversation in the wrong way.

When I say that I don't think you can really compare movies/TV with video games, I was doing so because there is something unique to video games that is very seldom found in other media that was at the heart of the issue at hand, namely the fact that video games are interactive and therefore the player becomes more invested personally. If I were saying that they're incomparable simply because of unrelated differences, I might've said that you have a point, but what you said here doesn't address that argument I made, and therefore can't dismiss it.

I think the real problem here is this: you're focusing on AAA titles.

Yes and no, actually. While the vast majority on that list are AAA titles, I wasn't looking at them because they were AAA, I was looking at them because they were said to be the best selling (per unit) of that year. As much as I love the indie gaming scene, and as important as I think it is, the fact of the matter is that the AAA part of the industry just tends to sell more (thus why they're AAA) but I digress...

AAA titles, blockbuster movies, etc. all have the following problem: They cost a whole helluva lot of money to make. When you're investing a lot of money into a project that could potentially determine the future of your company, you're going to want to play it safe. In our culture, male protatgonists are safe. They're what we've had in most of our stories in most of our mediums for the last two millennia. It's what people expect. Investors like getting things they expect. They like seeing the twentieth call of battlefield 2: modern honor game because it means their stocks are going to go up, slowly and steadily. They don't like risk. Corporate content creators are always going to listen to their investors above anything else.

In short: The creators of games aren't sexists, they're capitalists.

While I agree that running around calling people sexist, whether they're actually being sexist or not, is pretty unproductive, I don't see how being a sexist and being a capitalist are mutually exclusive. Arguing that the big wigs in the AAA industry are doing these things for the gain of capital doesn't negate the possibility that they could also be doing these things for inherently sexist reasons.

I think the better question would be whether or not the idea that marketing video games to men is a safer bet is flawed, and I think it is. There was an article about a month ago about Animal Crossing: New Leaf's development staff being half female, which isn't something that happens very often.

This diversity was a notable difference from the usual male dominated development teams that you see in other games, and it lead to the game being very popular particularly among women, leading to a boost in 3DS sales among women. It was such a difference that it stunned their CEO Satoru Iwata, which leads me to believe that this amount of popularity with the female player-base is unprecedented even for Animal Crossing, which is seen as a more casual game.

Maybe for now it seems as though that making games by and for guys is the safest way to go for a company, but I suspect that it's not, and I hope that in the future we can prove it wrong.

That being said, just like in movies, there are plenty of fantastic, well-received or highly anticipated independent titles that have strong female protagonists. Particularly notable are the following:

• Transistor
• Severed
• Child of Light
• To the Moon (technically mixed, but the more responsible, level-headed, competent of the two protagonists is female.)
• Broken Age

Furthermore, there's some mainstream games that are seen as masterpieces/have strong, strong cult followings that have strong female characters. I won't bother pulling the obvious ones like Samus and female-option characters like femshep.

• Jade (Beyond Good and Evil, Protagonist)
• Chell (Portal, Protagonist)
• GLADoS (Portal, Antagonist/Deuteragonist)
• Alyx Vance (Half-life, Deuteragonist)
• Bayonetta (Bayonetta, Protagonist)
• Faith (Mirror's Edge, Protagonist)
• Heather (Silent Hill 3, Protagonist)
• Alice (American McGee's Alice Series)
• Lilith (Borderlands, Borderlands 2, Optional protagonist)
• Maya (Borderlands 2, Optional protagonist)
• Clementine (The Walking Dead, Deuteragonist, The Walking Dead Season 2, Protagonist)

So no, Call of Duty and FIFA don't have strong female protagonists. But there are plenty of fantastic games that do.

Yes, but you're listing games that have been released in the last 10 years or so. I was able to list just as many male only or male dominated games based only on the sales figures for popular games that only just came out within the last few years.

Doesn't it bother you that you have to go back as far as 2003's Silent Hill 3 to make a list of notable games with strong female characters when I could drown that list in an ocean of notable male dominated characters from the same time period?

 

[Trickie]

I definitely agree, I never wanted to learn higher level math (trig, calculus) until i started playing space simulation games. Learning how physics worked and seeing it really helped wrap my mind around it. Though I will admit it made it a lot harder to appreciate science fiction once you realized real life physics lol

This is the price you must pay for knowledge, hun. You become that guy.

I can see how your experience in being transsexual would also mix over with the issues you bring up in gamer culture. Though i never really was a member of gamer culture (most games i played at one time were not that popular in the states so i was a fringe element)

*ha fringe ba dum tish*


I can understand that. TBH being a man there is a lot of gamer culture that i do not like. For example MMO's. Let me clarify I can not get sucked into those games and spend the amount of time many people do. So when i play I am constantly made fun of because "I lack skillz and am total noob etc" Once again as you said its not traumatizing it just makes me not want to play. Though I think the star trek MMO looks fun.

I know that's a totally different issue, but i think gamer culture in general is very judgmental at times. I feel people act this way especially when they do not have control of there real world lives. They get power and a feeling of control by destroying others for many petty reasons. And its not always a male female thing. (as stated this is only an opinion it does not take away any issues woman are having in that culture)

Gamer culture can be very judgmental at times, but I kind of think (to an extent) it comes with the territory. People care about these things a lot, and when they do, strong opinions form and the next thing you know you're calling a 3DS gamer a "filthy casual".

I agree 100%, plus from a non human cold business side alienating 50% market share is a stupid business move.
Hopefully the indy gaming community will start to pick up the slack were the big companies left off. Most games i buy now are indy as the big companies just do not speak to me anymore

From what I understand, there's a bit of a rise in indie games as of the last few years. The big wigs who are calling the shots in these AAA gaming companies are kind of shooting themselves in the foot because they just want ALL THE MONEY, so they crank up big budgets and try to compete to be the next Call of Duty and sell more copies than anyone else ever, and all the indie companies are just dancing around them, snatching up all the money that they refuse to even look at, and making better games in the process.

It's actually a very interesting time in the industry right now...

I will never judge someone on there crusade if they fight it with facts/pose/and fair debate. The truth is there is little we can do in Uganda, and other places in the world. Our fights here at home may seem trivial compared to a warlord in the next village who is intent on killing you. But they are still fights that need to be seen. I for one am a strong supporter of third party systems in the US and constitutional reform my issue is no more important or less important then yours .

The important thing to remember is you have a voice. No one ever has a right to silence that voice. That is why i really can not stand SJW on tumblr there whole goal is to win by shutting others up.

This issue is important to you, you have every right to voice your opinion. (and you voice your opinion well from what i have seen)

Aww, such flattery.

I slip up a lot more than I'm comfortable with, but I do at least try to make my arguments well reasoned, if not well written.

At times I may not agree with everything you say, But i really appreciate you taking the time out to let me see why you feel so strongly towards this. The big problem in discussions like these is the fact we forget that the other side feels as strongly as we do about our side, and like us they are people who have been shaped by there life experiences. Now that i know were you stand and why, our dialogue will always have common ground in one way or another, so even if i disagree i will see you as a person with experiences rather then an avatar on a cwcki forum (I hope that makes sense lol)

Thank you for your post i really do appreciate your answer/explanations. They have given me something to think about in a way I did not think before

Indeed! Common ground is always good to have, helps keep things civil. I'm glad to have learned more about you and your position as well.

I tip my imaginary trilby at you, good sir.