Feminism and the LGBT Community with Respect to Transgenderism - A vain (and autistic) attempt to improve Tranny Sideshows

[Ona Quest]

The reason we think it's unimportant isn't that we discount whatever experiences you've had - it's just that most terfs/progressive women/whatever seem to be willfully blind as to the root causes and larger context of the
current trans epidemic

Hard disagree with you. For you, the root cause of trannies, is women and whatever bs you guys shit in us for the moment. But, if women have contributed to troonism in anyway, it's was merely as a response to the expected behaviors men have of women. Like, Christianity (and the other Abrahamic sects) used to be a big part in defining how people behave and a lot of the women who identified as feminists only did so as a means of retaliation from the expected social norms. Women decided to explore themselves and their sexual identities outside of that shit, only so that advertising and the media can appropriate female sensuality and repackaged it for the male gaze through pronography (private hardcore and public softcore). When women were trying to break into male dominated fields such as entertainment, women decided to sell-out other women by sexualizing them for the male gaze. So, yea. Women are in part responsible for the commercialization and hypersexualization that is a key aspect of liberal feminism, but it was only done as a means to appeal to males in power. Ariel Levy does a good book about this called "Female Chauvanist Pigs."

Also, us leftists have been kicked out of all other spaces because we also cant talk about this shit anywhere and all we want to do is also laugh but the problem is that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. One side isn't solely to blame and to think that is dumb.

 

[Opticana]

Hard disagree with you. For you, the root cause of trannies, is women and whatever bs you guys shit in us for the moment. But, if women have contributed to troonism in anyway, it's was merely as a response to the expected behaviors men have of women. Like, Christianity (and the other Abrahamic sects) used to be a big part in defining how people behave and a lot of the women who identified as feminists only did so as a means of retaliation from the expected social norms. Women decided to explore themselves and their sexual identities outside of that shit, only so that advertising and the media can appropriate female sensuality and repackaged it for the male gaze through pronography (private hardcore and public softcore). When women were trying to break into male dominated fields such as entertainment, women decided to sell-out other women by sexualizing them for the male gaze. So, yea. Women are in part responsible for the commercialization and hypersexualization that is a key aspect of liberal feminism, but it was only done as a means to appeal to males in power. Ariel Levy does a good book about this called "Female Chauvanist Pigs."

You're making this too complicated. I'm not blaming one sex or the other. I'm just saying that the decline of traditional religion has left consent as the only standard by which we judge sex - and if that's the case then there's no reason to not indulge troonism's redefinition of man and woman, the same way we indulge the redefinition of marriage to include two men or two women. People who want troons to have access to women's spaces don't view this as a violation of consent any more than you would if a Bible-thumper claimed that women wearing trousers is corrupting men's minds against their will.

 

[Ona Quest]

You're making this too complicated. I'm not blaming one sex or the other. I'm just saying that the decline of traditional religion has left consent as the only standard by which we judge sex - and if that's the case then there's no reason to not indulge troonism's redefinition of man and woman, the same way we indulge the redefinition of marriage to include two men or two women.

What do you mean by "complicated?" That's the way the world is

I'm just saying that the decline of traditional religion has left consent as the only standard by which we judge sex

I don't understand what you mean by this. I'm inclined to believe that by "sex" you mean biological sex, as opposed to sexual activity

 

[Opticana]

I don't understand what you mean by this. I'm inclined to believe that by "sex" you mean biological sex, as opposed to sexual activity

I mean both sexual activity and gender/sex/whatever you call it. Denying biological sex is ridiculous, of course, but I think that pro-trans people don't see it that way. For them, there's no reason to differentiate between the right to engage in consenting sexual activity and the right to define your sex/gender the way you see fit (without getting nailed down in terminology), and this goes back to my point that terfs are asking modern culture to draw a very fine line here between sex and gender identity/sexual activity (once again, without commiting myself to a certain terminology). If a man can dress like a woman, and marry another man like a woman, than why should the definition of "woman" be limited to "adult human female"?

 

[AMHOLIO]

To add onto this, it's a super convenient wedge politically for lots of factions to use. Notice this shit really kicked in after Occupy Wall Street? In part due to gay marriage being settled, but it was definitely proven to be useful before then. Corporations can pay lip service to it, ignore other ethical concerns, and people will defend them for it. Anyone who wants to be opportunistic can find a way to weaponize it, since it's not really grounded in anything.

YES thank you. It usually is hard to get a movement/trend's popularity down once it is mainstream enough for other's uses.

@Lovecraft's Cat I appreciate the pseudojannying. I'll sperg on being a chick sometimes but I do my damndest in there to make sure it's because I'm trying to burn a troon on his perceived femininity as to not dick up the thread too much. I think dunking on the thread's subjects is more fun and someone should really open up a feminism general thread so people can duke it proper or circlejerk proper in the autism thunderdome.


I forgot to say: I think the people most to blame are the men and women who troon out themselves. They're enabled by people and given more leeway than anyone should, but the root cause is their own thoughts on "hmm to get really hard I need to turn myself into a bimbo/twink" and "if I don't like x I must be boy/girl". If they don't choose to listen to others who tell them reason, it is their fault.

The ones that go on to groom others are a big root cause for a lot of trans people. "Cracking eggs" is probably why 1/2 of new troons instead of classic trans exists. If you lovebomb people to feel less lonely in your choices or worse, you have a gender transformation fetish, you are a leading factor in troon making. Whatever other forces enabling the troons like reddit and corporations and societal politeness come second to John Girlcox starting and proselytizing his own religion and other crazy people listening to him and choosing to follow along.

Troonery, SJWism, and other new movements are the new religion but with no leader or true endgoal nowadays. A lot do it to fill a hole where something was before. You could say the lack of religion causes this, but why do people turn from it in the first place? Usually, it is because the community in that church was too isolating or constructive or even poisonous, which you can say is the community's fault.
for them turning to troonism (but it isn't: it is the troon's choice). There's aalso a fair share of those who also just dropped the congregation because the fetish made them feel better than the scripture itself (be it Christianity or Hinduism).

My thoughts from there are the main fix for most trenders is therapy. Dealing with self problems is important, hiding them hurts and the social push from sjws, corporations, sympathetic onlookers, and troons themselves to get more people to troon doesn't help. It is easier for both the patient and the medical system to go "here's your skittles now go you're cured as long as you have these" - people want a fast solution and don't have the time, money, or courage to face their problems. This is why you end up with people more depressed by the later parts of trooning than when they started (but convincing themselves not due to sunk cost fallacy).

Giving some of them a better community or religion would help some, but not all. Some have problems that aren't just structural, sometimes you have to take the extra time to work on yourself as well as Jesus or Mohammad's teachings.

And lastly, some people are born set to autodestruct. We legitimately can't save them all. Some are the kind that would just get into heroine and other hard drugs and die due to risky behaviors in the past, but trooning out is so enabling for cluster b personality disorders and selfish badtards alike that you have a glut of troons who are just selfish people with high libido who would have been pricks even if not a troon.

The Christian man with two kids, a loving wife, a job, and a good church who troons doesn't do it because his wife wasn't good enough to him or that his church is the root of all evil, he does it to hide out and escape responsibility. Even before troon reddit and forms there were recorded cases of men going AGP like Blanchard said. Men and women like this choose. They are the root of the troon problem, and groom others into making it worse.

 

[Ona Quest]

I mean both sexual activity and gender/sex/whatever you call it. Denying biological sex is ridiculous, of course, but I think that pro-trans people don't see it that way. For them, there's no reason to differentiate between the right to engage in consenting sexual activity and the right to define your sex/gender the way you see fit (without getting nailed down in terminology), and this goes back to my point that terfs are asking modern culture to draw a very fine line here between sex and gender identity/sexual activity (once again, without commiting myself to a certain terminology). If a man can dress like a woman, and marry another man like a woman, than why should the definition of "woman" be limited to "adult human female"?

I feel like the conflation of bio sex, with the act of sex (procreation), and the behavioral roles assigned to sex (gender) are constantly being being confused. Everyone acts like it's all one thing, but it's three separate phenomena being all squished together into this nebulous concept that becomes troonism.

this goes back to my point that terfs are asking modern culture to draw a very fine line here between sex and gender identity/sexual activity (once again, without commiting myself to a certain terminology). If a man can dress like a woman, and marry another man like a woman, than why should the definition of "woman" be limited to "adult human female"?

Well, you're operating on the premise that a man can't dress like a woman or marry another man. You're saying that these behaviors are obviously "womanly" and because of these behaviors that certain men display, the definition of "woman" should be expanded to include men who behave in ways you believe to be "womanly." You oppose terfs trying to police the definition of "woman," so that it only refers to biological women.

First of all, i do not think that a gay and/or effeminate man is a "woman," merely because he wants to fuck other dudes or is attracted to items usually associated with females.

I believe that a man can do all those things and still be a man. He doesn't suddenly becomes something else just because he behaves in a way that goes against your beliefs. A man is a man out side of behavior.

The fact that the belief that a man becomes a physical woman based on his behaviors is troon ideology.

Second of all, terfs are hard pressed on defining "woman" solely as "adult human female," because that's what it is

As women, we can define the word as we see fit because it encompasses our experiences that originate from our lived and embodied experiences.

 

[Ser Prize]

I forgot how fucking faggoty the rest of the farms are. Some of the posts hear read like stuff you'd see on twitter.

Feminists undeniably made way for troonery; they pushed to abolish the centuries old definition of what a man and woman were. Now it's being used to harm them, and as we see in this thread, they STILL shriek PATRIARCHY! MEN! BIBLETHUMPERS!

They've learned nothing. Repeal the 19th. It's been a shitshow.

 

[Ona Quest]

I forgot how fucking faggoty the rest of the farms are. Some of the posts hear read like stuff you'd see on twitter.

Feminists undeniably made way for troonery; they pushed to abolish the centuries old definition of what a man and woman were. Now it's being used to harm them, and as we see in this thread, they STILL shriek PATRIARCHY! MEN! BIBLETHUMPERS!

They've learned nothing. Repeal the 19th. It's been a shitshow.

Yet, here you are offended and reinforcing the very things you're complaining about the lack of self-awareness is depressing

 

[Ser Prize]

Yet, here you are offended and reinforcing the very things you're complaining about the lack of self-awareness is depressing

Oh I know precisely what I'm complaining about. Let me tell you more about it.

See, used to be that the ideal was the family unit. A man who works. A woman who raises kids/works side gigs. And the kids, which were the focus, which kept society stable. People were okay with sacrificing things for their family, because their family would help them when they needed it. This was the very cornerstone of society, of communities.

But feminist weren't happy with that. They wanted men's jobs. They wanted men's spaces. They knew that men usually will prefer a woman over another man(https://rutgerssocialcognitionlab.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/9/7/13979590/rudmangoodwin2004jpsp.pdf), so they used that to bitch and moan and commit terrorism(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign) all until they got the same rights men got. Moreso, even, as a man voting meant he signed up to be drafted, something which women still aren't held to.

So now they have the right to vote, thus becoming the biggest voting block. But that wasn't enough. They wanted men's jobs now. So they bitched and bombed and marched until they got men's jobs, doubling the labour pool and permanently suppressing wages forevermore. Now it's not about the family. Now it was a competition: men vs women, fighting for jobs.

So now they have the right to vote and men's jobs. But that wasn't enough. Men had clubs, schools, institutions that were explicitly male spaces. They wanted in those spaces now. They bitched and moaned and the media championed them, because the powers behind the media had correctly deduced that dividing men and women would destroy the foundation of the female, allowing them to grab more power politically.

And eventually the screamed their way into these institutions. There were no more men's-only spaces. But this is perfect, isn't it? This is fair! Except there are still women-only things, women-only shelters and schools and all that. But the funny thing was that when people tried either making these spaces inclusive or opening spaces for men. The women REALLY hated it. They fought back. They bitched. They got their way.

So now we're at where we were twenty years ago. Male institutions have been destroyed. Women have access to special privileges and spaces and are adamantly clinging to them. We know from above that women would rather prioritize a woman than a man, so what do you think happens with female teachers or bosses? Suddenly women are doing far better in school, far better in work, earning just as much while working less.

Now come the troons. See, women fought hard to destroy what it meant to be a man or a woman. They fought hard to make it so there aren't any male-only spaces, but many women-only spaces. They fought so hard. And now troons are turning it back on them. You get to be on the other end of the shit stick now.

I bet it sucks, doesn't it? I may hate trannies, but feminism created it. And now you have to deal with it.

 

[byuu]

So now they have the right to vote, thus becoming the biggest voting block. But that wasn't enough. They wanted men's jobs now. So they bitched and bombed and marched until they got men's jobs, doubling the labour pool and permanently suppressing wages forevermore. Now it's not about the family. Now it was a competition: men vs women, fighting for jobs.

This stuff has less to do with feminism but more with women gaining the time to work.
The invention of the washing machine which eliminated daily hours of manual labour for the woman in the house did more for women's right to work than any political movement.

 

[Second Sun]

Instead of the constant slapfighting, can one of the terfs please lay out why/how you see feminism as separate from leftist/wokeist/id pol/social justice movement that's obviously led to the trannies, because I don't get it.

It's an unequivocal truth that they pose far more of a threat to women - they do things the most obnoxious misogynist would never dream of. But you cannot honestly think 'the patriarchy' is responsible for them.

 

[teriyakiburns]

See, used to be that the ideal was the family unit. A man who works. A woman who raises kids/works side gigs. And the kids, which were the focus, which kept society stable. People were okay with sacrificing things for their family, because their family would help them when they needed it. This was the very cornerstone of society, of communities.

But feminist weren't happy with that. They wanted men's jobs. They wanted men's spaces.

This is all middle class fantasy. Working class women didn't want to get into mens' spaces or take mens' jobs; they were already working all the same jobs right alongside their husbands and sons. In the 19th century, the vast majority of women worked the same jobs as men, and their children did as well. They worked in mines and factories, on farms, in bars and shops. Very few jobs were restricted only to men, chiefly those involving extremely heavy lifting or physical stress, such as dockworkers and military service. Even if they "stayed at home", women wove cloth, maintained the property, and manufactured household items. Children were expected to work as soon as they could hold a shit in. The idea of women being pretty stay-at-home wives and men being the breadwinners is lifestyle only the rich middle- and upper classes could indulge in, and only because they had servants doing most of the drudgework.

It was political activism that drove so many women out of the workplace and into the home to begin with - activism by proto-feminist prudes, who lived in the lap of luxury and felt compelled to take working class women out of the jobs they'd occupied for centuries, because those jobs offended their delicate, upper-class sensibilities; and by upper class men who were astonished that at the thought of women doing anything other than sitting around and whining about cake and tea and hats.

My mother worked in a slaughterhouse until she was 20. My grandmother worked in a cotton factory. Her grandmother was a pit brow lass. Her grandmother probably worked underground in the same mine.

 

[bot_for_hire]

The idea of women being pretty stay-at-home wives and men being the breadwinners is lifestyle only the rich middle- and upper classes could indulge in

I always thought of this (the 'stay-at-home wife' meme) as being some sort of American fantasy. Looking at the social and economic history of my country it just seems like a ridiculous idea and a meme perpetuated by uneducated, thoughtless shitposters.

 

[Atomsk]

I'm not gonna lie and say I was happy with all of the responses to my post in the sideshow thread. In fact, a few of them were pretty spergy and a fair bit seemed like the person would absolutely never even bother thinking about trannies if not for stumbling upon terfs. I made the post mostly because I wanted to see how much the opinions of users on KF lined up with the opinions of some women I know who I believe to have some pretty solid reasoning for not wanting to share spaces with them. I have one friend who is a total redditor and she talks about how trannies ruin everything on there for everyone but especially for women. I was honestly expecting a lot of similar opinions but what I got was pretty diverse, I'm pretty sure I've read all of the responses and I'm still getting more.

All in all, I'm glad I did it and I think it was interesting even if I don't agree with a fair bit of it. I probably should have asked everyone to state how they lean politically because I feel like that factored into their reasoning cause people I'd get a more similar political vibe from would give similar answers but there's no way I could say for certain. Like, I got one response from someone who I'm pretty sure is a black feminist and I didn't even know black people used this website, let alone feminists.

It did not allow me to quote the post talking about mine so sorry if this seems confusing and out of place.

 

[1440p Curved Monitor]

Instead of the constant slapfighting, can one of the terfs please lay out why/how you see feminism as separate from leftist/wokeist/id pol/social justice movement that's obviously led to the trannies, because I don't get it.

It's an unequivocal truth that they pose far more of a threat to women - they do things the most obnoxious misogynist would never dream of. But you cannot honestly think 'the patriarchy' is responsible for them.

I'm a bit confused by this, probably because I just woke up. But I'll answer.

First, feminism, the movement for women's liberation, existed before the current idpol ideology. Just because women have equal rights in law doesn't mean that they have equal rights in practice and in society and it's of the best interest in women to take steps towards obtaining equal rights in practice. I find that the leftist movement assumes that women already have equal rights or that women's rights are less valuable than tran's (read: men's) rights, so I don't align with leftist/idpol.
I don't consider feminism to be a part of idpol for the same reason trannies aren't women: you cannot identify as a woman. Being a woman isnt a part of my identity, it is a property of my physical self. It is something that I didn't not chose, something that I've been since birth, and something that I will be after death. One can still argue that feminism is a part of idpol as it is still politics that separates groups based off of one commonly shared property, and to that I say then all politics from inception of modern politics is idpol since people forming political blocs on a common interest or property is a key part of politics and the oppression of women because of their sex has existed before then, which would make the definition and use of idpol useless. We can see this since women were not allowed to participate in Greek democracy, the start of what we call modern politics.

I also do not consider feminism to be a part of the leftist/woke movement because the latter is led by men with little to no women representation. A party cannot properly represent women if not even half of their leaders are women. Leftism doesn't have women's interest in mind and it never has.

Furthermore, feminism represents all women, no matter their political alignment. This is something a lot of people do not understand as they assume that feminism is a leftist idea, but it's not their fault that they think that as that is what the left has pushed for decades. Feminism exists outside of the left/right political spectrum because neither the left or right makes women's interests a priority. Even if we disagree on hot topics like abortion, all women can agree that we need our own bathrooms, the right to a fair competition in sport, domestic violence shelters, and the right to our own privacy. I will prioritize the ideas/wants of a conservative woman over the ideas/wants of a leftist man.

 

[2manycats]

I'm not gonna lie and say I was happy with all of the responses to my post in the sideshow thread. In fact, a few of them were pretty spergy and a fair bit seemed like the person would absolutely never even bother thinking about trannies if not for stumbling upon terfs. I made the post mostly because I wanted to see how much the opinions of users on KF lined up with the opinions of some women I know who I believe to have some pretty solid reasoning for not wanting to share spaces with them. I have one friend who is a total redditor and she talks about how trannies ruin everything on there for everyone but especially for women. I was honestly expecting a lot of similar opinions but what I got was pretty diverse, I'm pretty sure I've read all of the responses and I'm still getting more.

All in all, I'm glad I did it and I think it was interesting even if I don't agree with a fair bit of it. I probably should have asked everyone to state how they lean politically because I feel like that factored into their reasoning cause people I'd get a more similar political vibe from would give similar answers but there's no way I could say for certain. Like, I got one response from someone who I'm pretty sure is a black feminist and I didn't even know black people used this website, let alone feminists.

It did not allow me to quote the post talking about mine so sorry if this seems confusing and out of place.

Hey, glad you responded - I'm one of the people who gave a reply but made it very clear that I'm not on board with radical feminism at all, mostly to show that not every woman who disagrees with the trans narrative does so from a radical feminist standpoint. I mentioned Tumblr and liberal relatives in my post but should have mentioned the culture war as well - in my last reply to the TERFs thread I mentioned Gamergate too, and that was also a part of me coming to reject the current identity politics. There were some really stupid demands the pro-idpol side were making towards game devs, and looking deeper into what they believed just turned me off even further. A lot of the trans stuff came from that, but I see a lot of radfems who oppose the trans narrative making the exact same arguments these days too.

(Edit: as for my political views I'd say I hover around the centre, or classical liberal - free speech and freedom of expression is what's most important to me. Just don't be a prick, which includes compelling others to say or believe something, or doing something so unfathomably disgusting it lands you in prison.)

 

[Ona Quest]

This thread is fucking retarded. It's always the same men who don't contribute any content but always have a hate-boner for women, no matter what. everyone but men is the problem. Men are just innocent little angles that never do no wrong. It's all the women always the women

 

[AMHOLIO]

I bet it sucks, doesn't it? I may hate trannies, but feminism created it. And now you have to deal with it.

Will this all go away if we reinstated gender roles? What is your ideal solution to the troon problem?

Instead of the constant slapfighting, can one of the terfs please lay out why/how you see feminism as separate from leftist/wokeist/id pol/social justice movement that's obviously led to the trannies, because I don't get it.

It's an unequivocal truth that they pose far more of a threat to women - they do things the most obnoxious misogynist would never dream of. But you cannot honestly think 'the patriarchy' is responsible for them.

I'm "terf" as in people would call me that for my mild views so you know, grain of salt, but I'm assuming it is because traditional feminism is different from current feminism, much like watching conservative values change because conservative now was the progress of the past.

TRUE and HONEST Radical feminist seem like they're left leaning, but they're more akin to their own thing because they legitimately hate men and would subjugate them and make them have less rights. They appear left but have several tendencies that neither the left or the right have, and can share more in common with other extremist groups.

Most TERFs of the thread are just conservative version of femminist. "Ok, this is enough, we can stop here but still safeguard our rights," is their thought. Feminism is traditionally left, but it stretches across to the right nowadays because a lot of women like having basic modern shit like credit cards and such. So you have a conflict between "conservative" feminist and "liberal" feminist. A libfem is everyone can be a woman and we all deserve equality and also gender doesn't matter except when it does, a conservative fem is we all deserve equality but we don't need to include men.

It is something like that. Think of it like orthodox vs unorthodox religious groups. Logically the base beliefs of the orthodox could be right or left while the new groups take the beliefs and rocket towards their preferred stance.

 

[Ted Gazynski]

Yours is a good point well made. I sure had a moment there but even though I rage against trannies I'm definitely not throwing in my lot with the TERFs. Both are fucking annoying but while one is sort of like a buzzing noise the other's constantly five seconds away from raping little girls in bathroom stalls so as someone who has her priorities straight, I know who to throw most of my vitriol at.

It's kind of a shame actually, that there's no real "fuck everyone" camp, or at least if there is, I don't know of its existence. I'd like to believe that the second the troons have been eradicated the TERFs will shut up as well but that's probably reaching for the stars.

Anyway, the tranny sideshow is a great thread, and laughing at troons feels good.

TERFs have no power, no prospect of gaining power, and no broad base of support among the general population or in media that translates into real world influence. Trannies have the full might of the state, transnational corporations, financial institutions, mass and social media, and academia promoting their garbage and helping them groom kids.

I don’t know why anybody, even right wingers, cares enough to cry about TERFs. It’s like seething about monarchists or luddites.

 

[PlumSyrup]

Honestly I think at the point when the term "microaggression" was coined and when the concept became well-accepted, the entire concept of racism/sexism/etc became meaningless. "Sexism" has stopped meaning anything tangible like not being able to vote or female genital mutilation, and now means meaningless shit like "a funny movie about men hunting ghosts did not have any women in it." There is just no way a cohesive movement can exist when some women are out there fighting to put an end to fgm, while other women say they are fighting for the same cause by trying to petition netflix to have more bisexual female main characters or whatever. It would be sexist if women weren't allowed to be in movies or on tv, but... women are.

I typed in "sexism" into google news to see what came up and one of the first articles was about how there aren't enough women in competitive chess. Meanwhile, in West Africa, Boko Haram is kidnapping hundreds of girls to keep them from becoming educated and getting them pregnant while they're still very young.

I used to honestly think this watering down of these concepts was some kind of conspiracy to keep people from talking about actual problems in the world. But I've slowly come to realize that these movements are less about actually making a material difference in anyone's lives and more about yelling woke buzzwords online. I think, too, that part of the shift is for dramatizing stories. When my coworker tells me a man would be better at my job, I just decide he's a bit of a douche and ignore him. but if I have EXPERIENCED a SEXIST MICROAGGRESSION I can martyr myself dramatically, both at work and online.

I hate it so much because this bullshit is not only annoying, but it allows ACTUAL sexism/racism/etc to thrive.

Transphobia could theoretically exist, too... I'm just not really convinced that people are doing things like preventing trans people from working or voting or getting an education.