Game of Thrones Thread -

verissimus

kiwifarms.net
In crafting the Cersei S5/6 plot, the character’s greatest achievement, they essentially wrote the story into an inescapable corner. They made it inevitable that Cersei would be the final big bad, rather than the Night King or any other threat. The only other solution would be to kill off Cersei and they obviously weren’t going to do that.
...no. They made it inevitable Cersei would be the big bad instead of the Night King when they decided to not allow Daenerys to take King's Landing in season 7 when there was no reason to not let her do that.
 

iRON-mAn

kiwifarms.net
You even quoted this part of my post:
Slavery is not a terrible crime in Essos
Where exactly do think Braavos is?

You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay. Do you think that they aren't aware of this opposition? Of course they've outlawed it in their own cities because they want to keep making money but the idea of someone coming along preventing them from doing so isn't foreign to them.

Upsetting social order is what happens when one nation conquers and subjugates another. From a modern point of view it seems horrifying, but there was a time when seeing a people's way of life as backwards and seeking religious and/or cultural liberation was easily one of the most common reasons for war. It was usually a thinly veiled excuse for expansion or renown, but what do you think happened to the old laws and the old ways of life? In most instances they were either entirely removed, usually not peacefully, or integrated into the new society. We see Daenerys do the first to Yunkai and Astapor. She attempts the latter in Mereen when she re-opens the fighting pits. But none of this is particularly uncommon or strange.
 
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Emperor Julian

kiwifarms.net
I’d argue it’s similar with Cersei.
It's also going on with Jon snow, since they've decided that Jon's a classic hero who wins vs Dany and Cersai they're forced to write others around him as though he was a great leader as opposed to an honorable, likable man with a knack for swordplay. Dany for example is inexplicably anxious about him as a rival despite him being or having

-A terrible diplomat
-A mediocre commander
-being unwilling to engage in political skullduggery
-His claim looking really weak from the perspective of anyone who isnt a northerner.
-A far weaker power base than her.

But the plot demands people rally around him despite him being out of his league so we're treated as though he's Rob stark, Stannis or a Tywin lannister in terms of leadership.
 

Lemmingwise

Through a scanner smuckly
kiwifarms.net
Where exactly do think Braavos is?

You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay. Do you think that they aren't aware of this opposition? Of course they've outlawed it in their own cities because they want to keep making money but the idea of someone coming along preventing them from doing so isn't foreign to them.

Upsetting social order is what happens when one nation conquers and subjugates another. From a modern point of view it seems horrifying, but there was a time when seeing a people's way of life as backwards and seeking religious and/or cultural liberation was easily one of the most common reasons for war. It was usually a thinly veiled excuse for expansion or renown, but what do you think happened to the old laws and the old ways of life? In most instances they were either entirely removed, usually not peacefully, or integrated into the new society. We see Daenerys do the first to Yunkai and Astapor. She attempts the latter in Mereen when she re-opens the fighting pits. But none of this is particularly uncommon or strange.
As far as I know Braavos and Pentos are the only of the free cities where slavery is illegal; and in Pentos it's illegal in name only with slavery rampant.

The distance between Braavos and Slaver's bay is more than the distance between the Wall and Dorne. Braavos is an anomaly in Essos regards to their views on slavery; they're radically different from the rest of Essos.

Besides I was making clear that Braavos was the outlier in Essos in my first post about it.
 
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Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Dany for example is inexplicably anxious about him as a rival despite him being or having
I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander
 

Emperor Julian

kiwifarms.net
I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander

These are assets but their are some problems.
-His birthwright claim is a product of heathen wizard whose his kin and a man who has plenty of reason to hate dany so is always going to be doubted. Especially since he doesnt really look like a Valyrian and has none of their cultural trappings.
-The north is thoroughly ravaged after years of war.
-He belongs to a Minority religion (something which is a way bigger deal than being foreign) and a different ethnic group than the rest of Westeros.
-He's actually a really mediocre general compared to his peers including her. Any battle he's won has always had heavy causalities on his side.
 

Zero0

kiwifarms.net
These are assets but their are some problems.
-His birthwright claim is a product of heathen wizard whose his kin and a man who has plenty of reason to hate dany so is always going to be doubted. Especially since he doesnt really look like a Valyrian and has none of their cultural trappings.
-The north is thoroughly ravaged after years of war.
-He belongs to a Minority religion (something which is a way bigger deal than being foreign) and a different ethnic group than the rest of Westeros.
-He's actually a really mediocre general compared to his peers including her. Any battle he's won has always had heavy causalities on his side.
Are you talking about Jon here. If yes I'm really confused.
 

Emperor Julian

kiwifarms.net
Are you talking about Jon here. If yes I'm really confused.
Yes,
-Jon worships the old gods and is Culturally of the First men. Pretty much everyone else outside the north in Westeros follows the Faith of the seven and is an Andal. It isnt brought up much in the show but it's a bigger plot point in the books. First men are sort of a Norse/Celtic pagan culture whereas Andals are simular to Frankish Catholics.
-Watch any battle Jon is in, it's always a total shit-show where his side suffers massive causalities and he comes very close to losing.
-Over the last few seasons the north has been brutally fucked by the iron born, a Civil war and the night kings invasions. It's also in the middle of a super winter.
-Say you're some lord in one of the other kingdoms and someone tells you a wizard proclaimed Ned starks bastard is the true heir to the iron throne, would you believe them?
 

not william stenchever

menaces with spikes of sheet metal
kiwifarms.net
Don't forget, before the doom the Valyrian Freehold had tons of slaves and they conquered a lot of Essos at the height of their power. It's likely that a lot of the people they conquered practiced slavery already but the dragon lords made certain its practice spread. By enslaving people. Woe to the vanquished, indeed.
 
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Mola Ram

Self Righteous Ego Bastard Asshole
kiwifarms.net
So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.
 

Zero0

kiwifarms.net
Yes,
-Jon worships the old gods and is Culturally of the First men. Pretty much everyone else outside the north in Westeros follows the Faith of the seven and is an Andal. It isnt brought up much in the show but it's a bigger plot point in the books. First men are sort of a Norse/Celtic pagan culture whereas Andals are simular to Frankish Catholics.
-Watch any battle Jon is in, it's always a total shit-show where his side suffers massive causalities and he comes very close to losing.
-Over the last few seasons the north has been brutally fucked by the iron born, a Civil war and the night kings invasions. It's also in the middle of a super winter.
-Say you're some lord in one of the other kingdoms and someone tells you a wizard proclaimed Ned starks bastard is the true heir to the iron throne, would you believe them?
-So was ned and it didn't seem like much of a problem. I also haven't seen anyone discriminating against the starks for being of the First Men, does it even count as an ethnicity?
-Everyone is an incompetent commander in the show. Except Rob I guess.
-Dany armies should also not exist after episode 3, but if her armies respawn I guess the north does too.
-The information can be confirmed by the citadel I'm pretty sure.
 

Judge Holden

Corpsefucker
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.
I'd like to think Daenerys gets a somewhat better push off the edge of sanity than being beaten to kings landing.

Maybe she winds up taking kings landing with Griff's aid, but he eventually betrays her with the support of the people of Kings Landing who have been thoroughly propagandised by Varys's catspaws to love him by this point and the resulting fight causes the death of at least one of her close friends/advisors and one of her dragons who was wounded in a previous battle and recovering in the dragonpit as happened a century beforehand. Combined this betrayal by her own family and the death of her loved ones and rejection from the people she fought to save is what causes her to lose her shit and burn the city down, starting with Griff who quickly proves to not be a true dragon as he burns to a crisp.

I dunno, it aint a masterful plot twist or anything but it sure as hell beats "DINGYDONGYDINGYDONGY!" as a catalyist for insanity and mass murder
 

Emperor Julian

kiwifarms.net
-So was ned and it didn't seem like much of a problem. I also haven't seen anyone discriminating against the starks for being of the First Men, does it even count as an ethnicity?
-Everyone is an incompetent commander in the show
-Dany armies should also not exist after episode 3, but if her armies respawn I guess the north does too.
-The information can be confirmed by the citadel I'm pretty sure.
-Hard to say, if it's going to be wheeled out against Dany who presumably follows the faith of the Seven then Jon's foreignness s fair game. It's certainly culturally distinct enough for the North to opt out of the seven kingdoms.
-Yeah but even by the standards of the show he stinks. He actually all but loses the battle of the bastards but littlefinger and sansa bail him out.
-fair point.
-Possibly but I get the impression their would always be doubters, the guy who found the documents father and brother was burnt to death by dany and jon comes across about as Targaryen as Cersai comes across Iron born
 
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not william stenchever

menaces with spikes of sheet metal
kiwifarms.net
So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.
Have some speculation on what book-Dany's motivation to burn King's Landing will be
I think the broad outline of what would happen in the books is this: Jon Connigton and Young Griff (AKA Fake Aegon Targaryen, or fAegon) pull off a stunning victory against superior forces and put fAegon on the Iron Throne, the Reach and the Stormlands and Dorne (at least) behind him.

When Dany rolls up to King's Landing she will see fAegon in possesion of both her birthright and the love of her people. See sees that even if she deposes him even without committing warcrimes the people will forever see him as the one who saved the land (people down south won't believe she just helped kill frost satan) and her as a psychotic foreign tyrant. She realizes that she will never be loved by her people, the fake Targaryen has forever stolen that possibility from her.

As she gets more and more enraged by this state of affairs she decides that if she cannot be loved then she must be feared. She thinks of the imposter claiming to be a Targ, and thinks of her house words: Fire and Blood. Time to show this fake fucker who stole her birthright what Fire and Blood really means. Time to commence Operation Reign of Fire. And then maybe she dies when the wildfire explodes, or maybe the books end like they began, with a Stark beheading someone.

Also Jon Connington gives everyone greyscale.
 
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Stoneheart

kiwifarms.net
You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay.
Braavos is a city of run away slaves, a long distance away from slavers bay. it is(or was) a secret for the longest time.
 

not william stenchever

menaces with spikes of sheet metal
kiwifarms.net
Braavos is a city of run away slaves, a long distance away from slavers bay. it is(or was) a secret for the longest time.
I enjoy the theories that the Faceless Men were founded by slaves in Valyria before founding Braavos and are somehow responsible for the Doom of Valyria.
 

Marco Fucko

Freak a flow and flow fancy free.
kiwifarms.net
book experts
I'm not, but here's the basics of that storyline:
  • There is a 'sister house' to the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, composed of the descendants of a Targaryen bastard who was bestowed a Valerian sword named Blackfyre, and due to its symbolism within the monarchy helped to build support for a rebellion or civil war. I can't remember if Griff is confirmed as a Blackfyre or if it's just a fan theory.
  • Young Griff is allegedly Aegon Targaryen, one of the children supposedly killed by the Mountain before he raped and murdered Elia Martell
  • Jon Connington is an exiled former hand to Aerys (the Mad King)
  • Varys' betrayal of King's Landing is in relation to Young Griff, not to Dany.
  • These are the guys with The Golden Company at their back, and as a note since I don't think the show mentions it this season, the Golden Company is the closest thing to a professional army in the world of ASOIAF, even though they only number 10,000 they are all extremely skilled and well disciplined
  • Connington wants to court Dorne and the Vale as allies for his claim, since they have suffered the least loss of forces throughout the war of the five kings.
  • Young Griff is presented as a more dutiful/fit candidate for King than the likes of Tommen since he has both been trained as an aristocrat and worked with commoners
 

Your Weird Fetish

Intersectional fetishist
kiwifarms.net
No, you said opposing slavery in Essos was a radical idea. It's not. It happens, and Braavos tries to impose that opposition of slavery on other countries such as Pentos by force...exactly as Daenerys did.

It's difficult to know exactly how the escaped slaves of Braavos relate to the Slave Cities in Slavers bay. They escaped from Valyria, which once stretched to include Slavers Bay. But Braavos has been around for much longer, whereas Mereen, Astapor and Yunkai were merely colonies that flourished in the wake of the Doom of Valyria.
Meereen Astapor and Yunkai are colonies of Old Ghis technically, who were always opposed to the Valyrians.

Might be interesting in the books to see how Braavos' anti-slavery stance conflicts with their hatred of Valyrians. Y'know, if there are any more.
 
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