Game of Thrones Thread -

Your Weird Fetish

Intersectional fetishist
kiwifarms.net
It's pretty simple. He wanted a story with the trappings of fun fantasy middle ages but the cynical grit and brutality of the real middle ages. (with maybe some weird scifi stuff thrown in depending on what he does with the Others in the books). Back in the early 90's when he got started that was actually novel. Now it's almost a cliché in it itself.
 

Krokodil Overdose

[|][||][||][|_]
kiwifarms.net
I personally don't even understand wth exactly Martin was trying to do in the first place. I hear people talk about how he wanted to "combat the fantasy tropes", and it seems pretty clear he wants to add some sense of realism/the mundane (that is de-emphasize the fantasy side of things), but if you're going to do either what's the point? Why would you go into writing a series, never mind a book, just because you don't like seeing good vs. evil in a fantasy story for example? Like what else are you supposed to do in that kind of setting that's supposed to be interesting or moving and mind you do while embracing the genre that you're writing about?
I disagree, to a point. There's a lot you can do with a fantastic setting that doesn't have to end with some variant of Aragorn marching on the Black Gate (which is ironically not typical to fantasy stories, since it was basically a sac fly on the part of Team Good Guy.) One of the ur-examples of the fantasy genre will do nicely: Robert E. Howard's Conan stories are all one-shots about a guy knocking around a fantastic setting trying to get paid, laid, or both. Sure, he fights evil, but only when he's got a reason to, like there's money in it or it's threatening his immediate well-being- and he does this all without any magic or supernatural abilities, just his steely thews and balls so big they have their own gravitational pull (for women, anyway.)

Because if the show is any (and I mean any) indication of things, it seems pretty clear the fantasy side of things, white walkers, all the prophecies, etc. don't really matter. In fact, really nothing seems to matter that much because guess what the characters go back to doing? Killing themselves over who gets to sit in the iron throne. And surely someone might respond, well that's the point. It's a tragic story, to which I say, why would you spend this amount of time then just to deliver a tragic story or try making us believe it wouldn't be one?
I think the problem here isn't that it's a tragic story so much as a pointless one. The Night King is the embodiment of this: for seven seasons, viewers were told (to borrow a leaf from Urza's book) "victory will come from all of Westeros, or it will not come." Against the onslaught of the dead, they would unite, or they would fall- and they didn't unite. In a proper tragedy, we all know what happens: they perish for their hubris, and the world with them, and the final shot is the Night King ascending the frost-rimed Iron Throne as the zombified corpses of all the characters we loved bend the knee to him.

Instead, Arya 360-noscopes him and all that buildup turns into "lol, J/K, let's go curb-stomp Cersei and end this stupid thing." Seven seasons of anticipation for "well, the dog wasn't that frosty."
 

Spatula

kiwifarms.net
I'm sorry, but this sounds like bullshit for a couple of reasons:
1) After killing a bunch of surrendered soldiers, there's no way Grey Worm would just be allowed to go back to Essos
2) Bronn, while good fighter, is no accountant, so making him Head of Coin makes zero sense, plus, why would he even be trusted with a government position?
You know, I was thinking the same thing when I read about the BELLS leak.
I was imagining it in my head and it was so stupid and comical and I was doubting ,thinking, no way, there is no way they could be that stupid.
Lo and behold.

Now I realize the dumbest scenario you can probably think of is the most probable one.
 

Starscreams Cape

Read my posts in his voice
kiwifarms.net
I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander
I've been trying to put my finger on how to describe Jon this season. "Mopey schlub" is dead on...consider it swiped.

I personally don't even understand wth exactly Martin was trying to do in the first place. I hear people talk about how he wanted to "combat the fantasy tropes", and it seems pretty clear he wants to add some sense of realism/the mundane (that is de-emphasize the fantasy side of things), but if you're going to do either what's the point? Why would you go into writing a series, never mind a book, just because you don't like seeing good vs. evil in a fantasy story for example? Like what else are you supposed to do in that kind of setting that's supposed to be interesting or moving and mind you do while embracing the genre that you're writing about?

This honestly leads me to believe Martin doesn't actually really know or care what he's doing because the impression I get from some of his comments especially the ones that were part of that Rolling Stones interview talking about Aragorn's tax policy, is that he seems more concerned about the lore, history, and perhaps say the mechanics of his fantasy story (and by mechanics I mean say how X, say dragons, if available effects and influences the world around them). than providing a general straight forward narrative the audience can care about. Because if the show is any (and I mean any) indication of things, it seems pretty clear the fantasy side of things, white walkers, all the prophecies, etc. don't really matter. In fact, really nothing seems to matter that much because guess what the characters go back to doing? Killing themselves over who gets to sit in the iron throne. And surely someone might respond, well that's the point. It's a tragic story, to which I say, why would you spend this amount of time then just to deliver a tragic story or try making us believe it wouldn't be one? You mean to tell me you couldn't shorten the overall story to a few characters, houses and historical tidbits that will actually matter to the plot just to arrive to your goal? Like how is this ok with folks? It's one thing to accept a tragic story. That's not hard to do especially when it's fairly short and sweet, but it's another thing entirely to accept one where, you lead us to believe maybe such and such characters will fix things or at least mitigate the damage done by say their forebears, only for that likely not being the case. In fact, if we're going to go by the show we clearly not going to get that since Daenerys has clearly gone further than her own father, Tywin Lannister, Ramsay and Roose Bolton, Cersei, and Walder Frey combined. Seven seasons of the character pretending she might be an ok ruler, only to piss all over that just because we need a tragic ending.
If you know anything about Martin he was a pretty enthusiastic role player back in the day. I get the feeling he's like a good DM who created his world, its history and interesting characters to inhabit it. What he doesn't have is a table full of good players to help him lead his story where it needs to go.

He's clearly struggling what to do with Danaerys in the books. The show is just the canary in the coal mine. People who are expecting a vastly different outcome from the books may end up being doubly disappointed in the end. He may set up Dany's break a little better but if that's where it's ultimately leading anyway it's not going to be very satisfying.
 

дядя Боря

kiwifarms.net
It's a tragic story, to which I say, why would you spend this amount of time then just to deliver a tragic story or try making us believe it wouldn't be one? You mean to tell me you couldn't shorten the overall story to a few characters, houses and historical tidbits that will actually matter to the plot just to arrive to your goal? Like how is this ok with folks? It's one thing to accept a tragic story. That's not hard to do especially when it's fairly short and sweet, but it's another thing entirely to accept one where, you lead us to believe maybe such and such characters will fix things or at least mitigate the damage done by say their forebears, only for that likely not being the case.
well, that's the difference between a story with a moral and soap operas that meant to go on and on and on, keeping captive audience. From Martin's 90's letter with the proposal to the publisher, that's exactly what wanted to do, endless diarrhea without any point.
 
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Silent Observer

Tetramonadist Titan
kiwifarms.net
I personally don't even understand wth exactly Martin was trying to do in the first place. I hear people talk about how he wanted to "combat the fantasy tropes", and it seems pretty clear he wants to add some sense of realism/the mundane (that is de-emphasize the fantasy side of things), but if you're going to do either what's the point? Why would you go into writing a series, never mind a book, just because you don't like seeing good vs. evil in a fantasy story for example? Like what else are you supposed to do in that kind of setting that's supposed to be interesting or moving and mind you do while embracing the genre that you're writing about?

This honestly leads me to believe Martin doesn't actually really know or care what he's doing because the impression I get from some of his comments especially the ones that were part of that Rolling Stones interview talking about Aragorn's tax policy, is that he seems more concerned about the lore, history, and perhaps say the mechanics of his fantasy story (and by mechanics I mean say how X, say dragons, if available effects and influences the world around them). than providing a general straight forward narrative the audience can care about. Because if the show is any (and I mean any) indication of things, it seems pretty clear the fantasy side of things, white walkers, all the prophecies, etc. don't really matter. In fact, really nothing seems to matter that much because guess what the characters go back to doing? Killing themselves over who gets to sit in the iron throne. And surely someone might respond, well that's the point. It's a tragic story, to which I say, why would you spend this amount of time then just to deliver a tragic story or try making us believe it wouldn't be one? You mean to tell me you couldn't shorten the overall story to a few characters, houses and historical tidbits that will actually matter to the plot just to arrive to your goal? Like how is this ok with folks? It's one thing to accept a tragic story. That's not hard to do especially when it's fairly short and sweet, but it's another thing entirely to accept one where, you lead us to believe maybe such and such characters will fix things or at least mitigate the damage done by say their forebears, only for that likely not being the case. In fact, if we're going to go by the show we clearly not going to get that since Daenerys has clearly gone further than her own father, Tywin Lannister, Ramsay and Roose Bolton, Cersei, and Walder Frey combined. Seven seasons of the character pretending she might be an ok ruler, only to piss all over that just because we need a tragic ending.
To me, it seems that GRRM wanted to achieve 3 things with ASOIAF
1) Create a deep-lore Tolkien-esque Medieval Fantasy World with numerous characters, locales, and fantastical fauna
2) Subvert the Medieval Fantasy genre by showcasing the brutal Hobbesian living standards of IRL Medieval times
3) Tell a timeless parable about the dangers of humanity's self-destructive tribalism and how it distracts us from the imminent threats to our entire species

IMO, GRRM got overwhelmed by the massive world-building of Westeros, which has resulted in the stagnation of the novels that we see to this day.
 

verissimus

kiwifarms.net
Hmm. You guys responses weren't as bad as I'd thought they would (then again I knew I was taking a wild stab there). On a side note, are any of you aware of Final Fantasy Tactics and if so what do you think of it vs Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice.

I personally prefer FFT. It was far more concise, straight-forward, didn't have pointless sex scenes or characters clearly spouting off one liners for the audience amusement (well except in battle), good characters and a good story with a sort of tragic feel for at least 2 characters but above all embraced the genre of the story Interesting enough, it came out over a year after ASoIaF started.
 
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Your Weird Fetish

Intersectional fetishist
kiwifarms.net
Hmm. You guys responses weren't as bad as I'd thought they would (then again I knew I was taking a wild stab there). On a side note, are any of you aware of Final Fantasy Tactics and if so what do you think of it vs Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice.

I personally prefer FFT. It was far more concise, straight-forward, didn't have pointless sex scenes or characters clearly spouting off one liners for the audience amusement (well except in battle), good characters and a good story with a sort of tragic feel for at least 2 characters but above all embraced the genre of the story Interesting enough, it came out over a year after ASoIaF started.
It's a video game so apples to oranges, but it's also finished so it wins by default. Very good game all around anyway.
 

verissimus

kiwifarms.net
Hmm. It just occurred to me, that like the writers, I kind of forgot how the white walkers pretty much needed one of Daenerys dragons to take down the wall in order for them to pass. Then again, maybe they could have just had Jon convince Daenerys to come with him North along with her dragons (perhaps with him on one too just for some levity) to see that the white walkers did exist only of course to get ambushed. Certainly that would have been better than convincing her with cave drawings/etches. In fact, how was he able to convince her with some random cave drawings/etches...wtf. Seriously?
 

Silent Observer

Tetramonadist Titan
kiwifarms.net
Remember when Adult Swim said RIP Game of Thrones writing? It feels like the spirit of Game of Thrones died in 2016, and now in 2019 we are finding out that it's soul is in hell getting assraped by Benioff and Weiss wearing the Lust Dildo from Se7en, probably doomed there for eternity because it (and by it I mean GRRM) committed the deadly sin of Sloth by not finishing the novel series.
 
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Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Hmm. It just occurred to me, that like the writers, I kind of forgot how the white walkers pretty much needed one of Daenerys dragons to take down the wall in order for them to pass. Then again, maybe they could have just had Jon convince Daenerys to come with him North along with her dragons (perhaps with him on one too just for some levity) to see that the white walkers did exist only of course to get ambushed. Certainly that would have been better than convincing her with cave drawings/etches. In fact, how was he able to convince her with some random cave drawings/etches...wtf. Seriously?
Nothing about the White Walker storyline makes sense.

Why didn't the Night King immediately kill Jon and Co. when they were trapped on that ice flow?
How did the Night King know to have anti-dragon spears with him when he confronted Jon above the Wall?
Why did Dany believe the White Walker invasion was imminent before the Wall fell?
How long was Dany planning on waiting for the White Walkers to breach the Wall before returning to her conquest?

Dany didn't learn about the Wall falling until she returned to Winterfell this season. Everything falling into place so perfectly was just a massive coincidence!
 

verissimus

kiwifarms.net
Sob...

I actually disagree with this sentiment. Azula was always a bitch, but she wasn't just outright cuckoo either.

Oof. I know petitions are dumb and all, but I think they're a decent way for fans to show their frustration.

I'll be honest. I found this line cringeworthy for the writer's fetish for making the show jaded, overly brutal, and nasty, but this is so fitting now
 

Feline Supremacist

I am a Dog-Exclusionary Radical Felinist
kiwifarms.net
Nothing about the White Walker storyline makes sense.
Daenarys comes to Westeros a la Henry Bolingbroke with Dorne/Highgarden/Yara & her Ironborn in addition to the Unsullied & Dothraki backing her up. Without the White Walker/Night's King to make a dent in her plans it's a little too hard to start suddenly portraying her as crazy, unhinged and unfit to rule.

Martin has referenced the War of the Roses countless times and if he's using the York & Lancaster dynasties as reference most readers would assume that tyrant/disgruntled nobles = deposed monarch/new monarch crowned. I assume he's using the White Walkers to shake things up a bit. But in the hands of D&D it's executed badly and makes no sense; after all, the theme of the show was "Winter Is Coming" and in the end winter was just a couple of weeks of snow.

And nothing in the previous episodes prevents portraying Daenarys as a bad ruler and being deposed after taking the Iron Throne. It's not so much the denouement (glossing over the Others was a bad idea), its how they got there that's pissing off fans.
 
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