General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[heathercho]

I'm actually glad he said it, because it is a good example about why there will likely never be reversal of this. Most people just want to be left alone, and after enough time of thinking this new trend is stupid/crazy/gone too far, there is a point where they get tired and are willing to concede everything in order to make the arguments stop. So they, after around a decade, concede, it becomes the new normal, and soon it becomes taboo to even question this. And so things just keep pushing further and further; Concepts that are now said as ironic jokes will one day become the new trend, and eventually the same process starts all over again until it becomes actually taboo to question those things.

I think the issue is where troons et al want to "change" science and law.
We know there's male and female. But troons like Rhys McKinnon preach that there is no difference.
But we know there is. It's like having to confirm the flat earth theory because SOME people believe it.
I mean they've already wrongly conflated sex with gender. The gender obsessed doctors out there are grooming children to be smoothies basically. When it comes to the reality of life of earth being morphed to suit a small mentally ill percent of the population, I don't know if it can be compared to anything that's come before.

It can be shit being a girl - being perved on, being weak, being expected to be nice.

That's the thing as well. Troons outright demand women be nice, quiet and do as their told and accept and indulge their shit and if you dare say a word, you're a hideous terf. Also, you must fuck them, because No doesn't mean no, it means you're a bigot.

It's the pushing of this shit that is the most troubling.

 

[annoyingfuck]

They completely understand that it's something they are taking advantage of, the male that is the subject of this video, is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He's just too brainwashed to understand that it's a phase and once his brain matures at 26 or 30 (I'm making the assumption that he's not that old yet as he's talking about the mindhive), he'll suddenly wish he hadn't been so stupid.

 

[brutal poodle]

I think the issue is where troons et al want to "change" science and law.
We know there's male and female. But troons like Rhys McKinnon preach that there is no difference.
But we know there is. It's like having to confirm the flat earth theory because SOME people believe it.
I mean they've already wrongly conflated sex with gender. The gender obsessed doctors out there are grooming children to be smoothies basically. When it comes to the reality of life of earth being morphed to suit a small mentally ill percent of the population, I don't know if it can be compared to anything that's come before.

I seriously don’t understand the obsession with the dictionary definitions of sex and gender being different. Why is it such a commonly argued point? And why is gender-obsession such a common thing for teens and young adults on the internet? It is such a little part of your overall personality and identity, at least in my view. And I don’t think any other previous generations of teens were ever so obsessed with their own gender identity, as far as I know. It’s mainly an internet thing to make such a big fuss about where you fall on the “gender spectrum.” I don’t get it. Does it really play such a big role in their lives?

 

[teriyakiburns]

Does it really play such a big role in their lives?

In short, yes, because they have an obsession with "identity" and very little to craft that identity around.

 

[queue-anon]

I seriously don’t understand the obsession with the dictionary definitions of sex and gender being different. Why is it such a commonly argued point? And why is gender-obsession such a common thing for teens and young adults on the internet? It is such a little part of your overall personality and identity, at least in my view. And I don’t think any other previous generations of teens were ever so obsessed with their own gender identity, as far as I know. It’s mainly an internet thing to make such a big fuss about where you fall on the “gender spectrum.” I don’t get it. Does it really play such a big role in their lives?

For some of them, it's the new goth/emo/punk. They're embracing a counterculture that makes them feel special and different. The "different" part has always been supremely ironic since kids in these groups all dress alike and like the same music, movies, books, etc., and I say this as a former goth.

What's alarming about this particular counterculture trend is that it often leads to very serious body modifications. Most of us who were goths have some embarrassing photos from back then and maybe some regrettable piercings and tattoos, but not moobs, a full beard, or a higher risk of cancer.

 

[heathercho]

I seriously don’t understand the obsession with the dictionary definitions of sex and gender being different. Why is it such a commonly argued point? And why is gender-obsession such a common thing for teens and young adults on the internet? It is such a little part of your overall personality and identity, at least in my view. And I don’t think any other previous generations of teens were ever so obsessed with their own gender identity, as far as I know. It’s mainly an internet thing to make such a big fuss about where you fall on the “gender spectrum.” I don’t get it. Does it really play such a big role in their lives?

From a "Terf"* standpoint, gender and sex being different is important.
Biological sex being a dimorphic, material, definable reality vs gender being a set of traits, like masculinity and femininity. Whilst it's accepted by normal people that gender is binary - ie, your biological sex dictates you gender, troons argue that gender is purely a choice, something you can self-identify with.
They argue therefore, that self ID is more important than biological sex. Some even argue that biological sex isn't a real thing. Which is lunacy. Rhys McKinnon is fond of arguing that humans aren't sexually dimorphic at all. Others, like Emmy Zje believe they're biological females purely because they've chosen the gender identity of woman.

They use intersex people as a shield in this argument as well. They have nothing whatsoever in common with intersex people. They don't have variations on their chromosomes and they well know this. People like Jonathan Yaniv will pretend that they're intersex and have both male and female sexual organs - that's impossible.

Trans people, no matter how much they wish, try, pump themselves full of horse piss hormones, can never ever change sex. Never. They can mutilate their genitals all they like, they can never ever be the opposite sex.
So they say to hell with sex, let Gender Self ID be the defining thing in society.

In society, we don't assign "gender" at birth. We use science to determine biological sex. That's why a birth certificate will say SEX. Sex is Male or Female.
Troons however, have wrongly conflated sex with gender. They argue gender is assigned at birth. It is not. Female and Male are purely sex definers. Woman and Man are gender.
Yet - and this is the most ridiculous part - troons have been allowed to change their birth certificates to Female or Male. That impacts medical records and is factually and scientifically incorrect. That should never have been allowed to occur, because it's impractical, impossible and pure fallacy.
It's also dangerous and whilst I don't care if a troon dies because they want to lie about their biological sex in a medical setting, it's still a problem in society.

They should never, ever have been allowed to change their SEX - something that can never EVER change - on formal documents. You cannot have a penis and be female and you cannot have a vagina and be male.

So if you're asking if it plays a big role in their lives - yes it does. It plays a massive role in their lives because they're out to prove they ARE the opposite sex. Something they know is impossible.
Not only that, but being a fetish for most of these people, they live and die by the fetish. It's a powerful drug.
If you look at troons, a vast majority of them are sex obsessed. They have this fetish view that a female/woman is just a sex object, constantly craving cock, submissive, bimbofied. The bimbofication aspect is a huge part of their fetish in most cases.

So yeah, when you're a sex pest living out your fetish 24/7, it is the main puzzle piece to your identity.

*Terf in this context meaning anyone who disagrees with the trans narrative.

 

[littlearmalite]

From a "Terf"* standpoint, gender and sex being different is important.
Biological sex being a dimorphic, material, definable reality vs gender being a set of traits, like masculinity and femininity. Whilst it's accepted by normal people that gender is binary - ie, your biological sex dictates you gender, troons argue that gender is purely a choice, something you can self-identify with.
They argue therefore, that self ID is more important than biological sex. Some even argue that biological sex isn't a real thing. Which is lunacy. Rhys McKinnon is fond of arguing that humans aren't sexually dimorphic at all. Others, like Emmy Zje believe they're biological females purely because they've chosen the gender identity of woman.

They use intersex people as a shield in this argument as well. They have nothing whatsoever in common with intersex people. They don't have variations on their chromosomes and they well know this. People like Jonathan Yaniv will pretend that they're intersex and have both male and female sexual organs - that's impossible.

Trans people, no matter how much they wish, try, pump themselves full of horse piss hormones, can never ever change sex. Never. They can mutilate their genitals all they like, they can never ever be the opposite sex.
So they say to hell with sex, let Gender Self ID be the defining thing in society.

In society, we don't assign "gender" at birth. We use science to determine biological sex. That's why a birth certificate will say SEX. Sex is Male or Female.
Troons however, have wrongly conflated sex with gender. They argue gender is assigned at birth. It is not. Female and Male are purely sex definers. Woman and Man are gender.
Yet - and this is the most ridiculous part - troons have been allowed to change their birth certificates to Female or Male. That impacts medical records and is factually and scientifically incorrect. That should never have been allowed to occur, because it's impractical, impossible and pure fallacy.
It's also dangerous and whilst I don't care if a troon dies because they want to lie about their biological sex in a medical setting, it's still a problem in society.

They should never, ever have been allowed to change their SEX - something that can never EVER change - on formal documents. You cannot have a penis and be female and you cannot have a vagina and be male.

So if you're asking if it plays a big role in their lives - yes it does. It plays a massive role in their lives because they're out to prove they ARE the opposite sex. Something they know is impossible.
Not only that, but being a fetish for most of these people, they live and die by the fetish. It's a powerful drug.
If you look at troons, a vast majority of them are sex obsessed. They have this fetish view that a female/woman is just a sex object, constantly craving cock, submissive, bimbofied. The bimbofication aspect is a huge part of their fetish in most cases.

So yeah, when you're a sex pest living out your fetish 24/7, it is the main puzzle piece to your identity.

*Terf in this context meaning anyone who disagrees with the trans narrative.

I hate to keep pigeonholing myself as "Armalite who walks amongst the troons", but I have plenty of firsthand experience in this area. To true and honest troons, it's not about actually being a woman, it's about being the base fantasy of a woman, from a male perspective.

It's about being sexy. It's about being lustful. It's about being desireable. It's about being 'femme' (read- the standard porno's idea of the place of a woman- on her knees or on her back). If it were truly about being a woman, they would do more to emulate women, instead of focusing so harshly on the 'female orgasm' or the 'feminine penis' or the 'mouthfeel' or whatever the fuck your local troon is on about.

They know they're not a real woman. They know they never will be. They know they never can be. So, they don't even try. They insist that their butchered, mangled and distorted attempt at aping womanhood is the genuine article, and that we are 'sexist' for not wanting a blatantly chauvinist display of masculine disregard for the feminine graces and nuances to exist. It is as blackface is to the black man- a man who knows only the most basic of things about a woman decides that he shall put on his woman clothes, and become a woman.

It's about sex and debauchery to troons because in their minds, that's all women exist for.

 

[Manah]

We need a paper bag test except for physical attractiveness, imo.

Like realtalk though. there are plenty of disgusting, phyiscally and personality-wise repulsive biological cis women. I'd prefer to share a room with a trans woman who was at least vaguely functional than a cis woman like that. Yeah there's the argument that people will that there ARE no 'at least vaguely functional' trans people but that's a different matter altogether.

I never really got the whole grouping people together as good or bad because there's going to be scumbags in any group.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Oh boy, I've been waiting for this for so goddamn motherfucking long.

Alright, here we go.

Gender dysphoria is a real thing. It's a proven thing that a lot of people deal with. It's a similar deal as body dysmorphia. So, the thought process is that if it's just like body dysmorphia, then that means the solution is the same. Either learn to live with your body, or change it.

This is where the troon gets a bit mixed up.

You see, I'm very active in the troon commune. Most of my social circle, due to my political leanings and particular entertainment mediums, are troons. On the podcast that I'm a long-running member of, two of the most frequent contributors are troons. One thing that unifies them is that deep down, they know.

They know they're not a real (wo)man, and they never will be. They cling to the delusion that taking estrogen will simply make them feminine, as if there isn't an actual difference on the genetic level that makes man and woman separate. It simply is what it is, and it will never change. Gender dysphoria is, indeed, a mental illness, and what schizocows are to schizoaffective and paraschizoid disorders, so are troons to dysphoria. I'm not comfortable with being born a man, the traditional way of being a 'man' that I was raised in has genuinely caused me emotional distress due to my lack of ability to properly express my emotions for fear of being seen as 'a bitch'. My response is to simply reclaim my identity, irregardless of my gender. The troon's response is to discard their identity, and claim a new one.

This is why their politics and beliefs are so outlandish, why so many of them are pseudomarxist faux-intellectuals and pedophiles. Because they are deluded. They have left a mental illness untreated, and have gone to the most extreme lengths to 'treat' their disease, by giving it complete and utter power over them.

And they expect me to look at a 6'0 goliath with sagging breasts, a stink ditch, a very shoddy attempt at a feminine falsetto, greasy, unconditioned and paper-thin hair, caked on make=up that would make a circus clown envious, and names so exceptional that I an only find them in fantasy novels or foreign language dictionaries, and say that this is exactly as much of a flesh and blood woman as my girlfriend. It's astonishing what mental illness does to people.

We shouldn't allow this kind of foolishness to continue. Instead, we should treat gender dysphoria as what it is- a mental illness. The cure is not surgery, the cure is not trooning out. The cure is forming a healthy binary spectrum in which one can be as masculine or feminine as they want within their gender, and make that position their own. A man can be feminine, and a woman can be masculine. There's nothing wrong or unnatural about that. A man or a woman attempting to mutilate themselves in pursuit of jumping onto the opposite axis is wrong and unnatural.

This is the quintessential "there's black people and there's niggers" Chris Rock bit applied to transgenderism. We all love to applaud that kind of thing because it simultaneously allows us to point and laugh at the excesses, while we also get to pat ourselves on the back for being nice to "the good ones".

But there is a fundamental difference. Black people had no choice in the matter of being born black. But you have a fundamental choice in being trans or not.

The cure is not a binary spectrum as you suggest. It's a contradiction in terms. Either something is binary, or it's an analog spectrum. It can't be both binary and a spectrum.

This isn't just semantics either; the semantic part just helps highlight the contradiction in it. This is also apparent when you say people can be "as feminine or masculine as they want". That again suggests people choose.

The essence of this all debate is choice vs. ideals. You can choose to act in whatever legal way, but the more you stray from ideals, the more people will judge you for it. The more you pay the price of conforming to ideals, the more people will look positively on you. Of course there is a lot of mismatch in what ideals there should be in different people's minds.

Now, you score brownie points for not being completely idealfree like troons/transtrenders. I don't think you fully accept that other people score brownie points for not being transgender in the first place and yet other people score brownie points for being in line with feminine or masculine ideals.

In the end your whining that we should do away with exactly only the ideals that you don't conform to is completely self-serving and has not taken into account the bigger picture.

I mean this whole idea of sex as a spectrum has roots in Alfred Kinseys work, which was a complete deception of the public by a man that paid parents to rape their babies in the first place. We should discard every single idea he has put in the public consciousness.

 

[littlearmalite]

This is the quintessential "there's black people and there's niggers" Chris Rock bit applied to transgenderism. We all love to applaud that kind of thing because it simultaneously allows us to point and laugh at the excesses, while we also get to pat ourselves on the back for being nice to "the good ones".

But there is a fundamental difference. Black people had no choice in the matter of being born black. But you have a fundamental choice in being trans or not.

The cure is not a binary spectrum as you suggest. It's a contradiction in terms. Either something is binary, or it's an analog spectrum. It can't be both binary and a spectrum.

This isn't just semantics either; the semantic part just helps highlight the contradiction in it. This is also apparent when you say people can be "as feminine or masculine as they want". That again suggests people choose.

The essence of this all debate is choice vs. ideals. You can choose to act in whatever legal way, but the more you stray from ideals, the more people will judge you for it. The more you pay the price of conforming to ideals, the more people will look positively on you. Of course there is a lot of mismatch in what ideals there should be in different people's minds.

Now, you score brownie points for not being completely idealfree like troons/transtrenders. I don't think you fully accept that other people score brownie points for not being transgender in the first place and yet other people score brownie points for being in line with feminine or masculine ideals.

In the end your whining that we should do away with exactly only the ideals that you don't conform to is completely self-serving and has not taken into account the bigger picture.

I think the 'bigger picture' is that rigid gender norms are harmful to people, and shouldn't be the basis by which a person is judged. If it were 'whining' about 'let men be sissies', I would have bawwed and hawwed all the way back to Topeka. There are things that biologically make a man a man and a woman a woman. There is no debate on this. The sky is blue, the grass is green. Men are men, and women are women. But having an abundance of masculinity is not what makes you a man. Having an abundance of femininity does not make you a woman. That is the point I was trying to get across, and I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. Truth be told, I don't have the gift of gab, as much as I'd like to.

I would go deeper into my theories on how transgenderism ties into the more harmful interpretations of the gender binary, but I'd rather not hog the thread or misrepresent myself.

 

[Lemmingwise]

It's about sex and debauchery to troons because in their minds, that's all women exist for.

Transgenderism is always about sex (sexual acts), because it's the only thing that differs between men and women in modern western society. There isn't an occupation or hobby that is exluded to either.

Oh wait, I take that back. Transgenderism is always about sex, unless it's about being a winner in athletics.

 

[KateHikes14]

View attachment 1034349

If I recall correctly that's an FTM. She won on gear not on natural male puberty.
Also the @vintologi guy has his own incelwiki page if no one pointed that out.

Vintologi - Incel Wiki

incels.wiki

It explains a bit.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I think the 'bigger picture' is that rigid gender norms are harmful to people, and shouldn't be the basis by which a person is judged. If it were 'whining' about 'let men be sissies', I would have bawwed and hawwed all the way back to Topeka. There are things that biologically make a man a man and a woman a woman. There is no debate on this. The sky is blue, the grass is green. Men are men, and women are women. But having an abundance of masculinity is not what makes you a man. Having an abundance of femininity does not make you a woman. That is the point I was trying to get across, and I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. Truth be told, I don't have the gift of gab, as much as I'd like to.

Alright I shouldn't have said whining.

You say they are "harmful" to people. In what way?

Look at any endeavor in sports. To become the absolute best at a physical activity, you have to cut out all habits that don't conform to the ideal and put in all habits that do conform to the ideal. On top of that you have to have some luck and be geneticly blessed to conform to that ideal in the first place. There are always going to be people who don't stand a chance, despite best efforts, to win athletic competitions. Then there are people who stand a chance, but have to change everything about themselves to have a shot at a medal.

Now, is that ideal harmful? I suppose you could frame it like that, but it seems more sensible to look at it like a challenge. A challenge that nobody is forcing one to take, by the way.

Of course olympic medal winners will receive the reward of being regarded positively for doing so.

Similarly men that embody masculine traits (ideals) and women that embody feminine traits (ideals) are going to be more desired as partners than those that don't. Does that mean that some people have to trade some habits / prefferences for others? Of course. Does it mean that it's hard to change? Of course.

But it isn't something that is inherantly harmful, even if the experience can be negative. I think having such a negative outlook towards ideals is more harmful than the ideals themselves.

I agree that feminity or masculinity doesn't make one a woman or man, but why not take take the next step and acknowledge that feminity in women and masculinity in men are worthy ideals?

 

[littlearmalite]

Alright I shouldn't have said whining.

You say they are "harmful" to people. In what way?

Look at any endeavor in sports. To become the absolute best at a physical activity, you have to cut out all habits that don't conform to the ideal and put in all habits that do conform to the ideal. On top of that you have to have some luck and be geneticly blessed to conform to that ideal in the first place. There are always going to be people who don't stand a chance, despite best efforts, to win athletic competitions. Then there are people who stand a chance, but have to change everything about themselves to have a shot at a medal.

Now, is that ideal harmful? I suppose you could frame it like that, but it seems more sensible to look at it like a challenge. A challenge that nobody is forcing one to take, by the way.

Of course olympic medal winners will receive the reward of being regarded positively for doing so.

Similarly men that embody masculine traits (ideals) and women that embody feminine traits (ideals) are going to be more desired as partners than those that don't. Does that mean that some people have to trade some habits / prefferences for others? Of course. Does it mean that it's hard to change? Of course.

But it isn't something that is inherantly harmful, even if the experience can be negative. I think having such a negative outlook towards ideals is more harmful than the ideals themselves.

I agree that feminity or masculinity doesn't make one a woman or man, but why not take take the next step and acknowledge that feminity in women and masculinity in men are worthy ideals?

I don't have a problem with sports. I believe men's sports should be men's sports, and women's sports should remain women's sports. It takes a special brand of person to be a professional athlete. I think that sometimes the attitudes athletes take are harmful in the long run, but that's not a fault of a system, that's their own personal thing.

My problem with the idea of venerating the 'feminine female' and 'masculine male' is that not everyone is the same. Just as I'm not the most masculine of men, I know women who are not the most feminine of women. I know men who are the picture of traditional masculinity, and I know true blue femme women. I think that everyone is who they are across that line, and I don't think people should be encouraged to change who they are to conform to some 'ideal'. The individual has the right to be who they are, and let nothing infringe upon it. IF that means that a man wants to pursue traditionally feminine pursuits, such as the culinary arts, or being a homemaker, let him. If a woman wants to work, or perform in athletics, or be a leader in the workforce or in a group of people with like interests, let them.

There are some places where genetics come into play. Places like the military and law enforcement, maybe, but those are the exception, not the norm.

 

[Lemmingwise]

If I recall correctly that's an FTM. She won on gear not on natural male puberty.

Alright? Doesn't really change that being trans immunized this person from having to follow the rules and that it helped win athletics competition. It's interesting and I'm glad you pointed it out, but the point stands.

I don't have a problem with sports. I believe men's sports should be men's sports, and women's sports should remain women's sports. It takes a special brand of person to be a professional athlete. I think that sometimes the attitudes athletes take are harmful in the long run, but that's not a fault of a system, that's their own personal thing.

My problem with the idea of venerating the 'feminine female' and 'masculine male' is that not everyone is the same. Just as I'm not the most masculine of men, I know women who are not the most feminine of women. I know men who are the picture of traditional masculinity, and I know true blue femme women. I think that everyone is who they are across that line, and I don't think people should be encouraged to change who they are to conform to some 'ideal'. The individual has the right to be who they are, and let nothing infringe upon it. IF that means that a man wants to pursue traditionally feminine pursuits, such as the culinary arts, or being a homemaker, let him. If a woman wants to work, or perform in athletics, or be a leader in the workforce or in a group of people with like interests, let them.

There are some places where genetics come into play. Places like the military and law enforcement, maybe, but those are the exception, not the norm.

I asked how they are harmful. So they're harmful because people are encouraged to be better. That's it? Your harm is being encouraged?

As for the male homemakers.... there really isn't a shortage of men willing to sit at home most of the day. But still career women will talk at length about "where have all the good men gone". Really makes one go

It's almost like it's smart for a man to try to be more than a homemaker, because a male homemaker isn't usually a desirable trait in a man in the eyes of women (and for the few that do find it desireable, they still probably wouldn't match up with those women due to the abundance of men willing to play that role).

 

[KateHikes14]

Alright? Doesn't really change that being trans immunized this person from having to follow the rules and that it helped win athletics competition. It's interesting and I'm glad you pointed it out, but the point stands.

Sorry it does I'll profile post it next time to not derail discussion, I wanted to share the incels' cow.

 

[Fangsofjeff]

It's about being sexy. It's about being lustful. It's about being desireable. It's about being 'femme' (read- the standard porno's idea of the place of a woman- on her knees or on her back). If it were truly about being a woman, they would do more to emulate women, instead of focusing so harshly on the 'female orgasm' or the 'feminine penis' or the 'mouthfeel' or whatever the fuck your local troon is on about.

In other words, if they were truly women they wouldn't bother transitioning because the majority of real women live with their bodies because they happened to be born with them, not because they "feel right". The ultimate way of emulating a woman is to learn to love yourself as you are, imo.

 

[Feline Darkmage]

Somewhere and somehow, this got twisted. We used to tell girls they couldn’t like science/engineering/whatever. Now we tell girls if they like science/engineering/whatever they aren’t actually girls.

The same goes for boys by the way. It was positive to tell boys that it’s fine to be masculine but also totally fine if they wanted to go into a traditionally female/nurturing role. So we’ve gone from telling boys that nursing (or whatever) isn’t what boys do to telling them that if they like that they’re actually girls.

so instead of saying that SOME gender stereotypes are a bit shit and that it’s be nice if we relaxed some of them we’ve ended up creating rigid stereotypes then saying anyone who doesn’t fit in is actually the opposite sex.

This is not nearly as widespread as people keep complaining. I've legitimately seem more people complain about this being some "dominant view" in society or online 1000s of times more than I've actually seen a view like this expressed. (quoted another example from Otterly in the insane parents of trans kids thread since it fit more with this discussion than that one.)

For something that rare, the pushback is pretty widespread and misapplied to a wide swathe of people that don't even actually believe anything like this.

I dont understand why you cant be masculine or feminine as you please but still be your birth gender. There are drag queens and butch lesbos who never consider transition. Why do you gotta be special?

And this, this is a related note. It's not about specialness. The existence of trans people and drag queens and butches don't negate any of the other categories. Some drag queens are even trans people.

We shouldn't allow this kind of foolishness to continue. Instead, we should treat gender dysphoria as what it is- a mental illness. The cure is not surgery, the cure is not trooning out. The cure is forming a healthy binary spectrum in which one can be as masculine or feminine as they want within their gender, and make that position their own. A man can be feminine, and a woman can be masculine. There's nothing wrong or unnatural about that. A man or a woman attempting to mutilate themselves in pursuit of jumping onto the opposite axis is wrong and unnatural.

I feel like there's a very unfair stigma against transition related surgery. What other kinds of currently medically approved surgery are considered "mutilation"? Not many. Same thing goes with some people's weird moral crusade over surgery complications you don't see in any other type of surgery even ones with comparably awful complication potential.

Medicine, surgery, and changing the social order are hardly mutually exclusive things and I prefer working towards better and more refined forms of each simultaneously.

How can we KNOW for sure that transition is the right goal when it is socially forbidden to explore desisting? How come every other psychological disorder is treated with desistance or mitigation - we don’t support the delusions of schizophrenics and tell them they are valid and healthy; we don’t tell BPDs to enhance all their unhealthy delusions and antisocial behavior. Until we have rigorous investigations into methods of desisting, the grounds by which we can claim transing as a good treatment is as flawed and tragic as the practice of lobotomy. It’s setting people up for disappontment - men cannot become women, and vice versa. But they try, and then they kill themselves.

I was very tempted to get snarky with you. But I'll just be straight up.
1) It's not. Detransitioning is fine. The only thing that isn't fine is the cult-like subset that have decided that since it wasn't working for them, it doesn't work at all, in any case. They frequently hide behind this rhetoric.
2) Comparing being trans and/or having GD with Schizophrenics is bad. Its another rhetorical slight of hand that "sounds good" or like "common sense" but it betrays a major lack of understanding about psychology. It also ends up with people suggesting putting trans people on literal potentially brain-frying anti-psychotics which is much less humane than transition is.

r/transmaxxing - Best transmaxxing stories

5 votes and 2 comments so far on Reddit

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Incels going trans is a good thing, if elliot rodger had trannymaxxed 3 nice females would still be alive today. Incels going trans is good for society and individual incels, there is no real downsides to this.

Okay I was sort of with you until you posted a bunch of really blatantly weird incel cringe. Why the fuck is every single permutation of or response to Blanchardian shit that comes from the bowels of reddit & 4chan even weirder than the last variant?

So am I crazy because I DON’T let Kiwifarms affect my views on transgender people?

Plus we have a trans kiwi or two. No idea how they deal with being here.

Nah you're 100% sane. People who spend a lot of time on here are very prone to falling into myopic worldviews about subjects like trans people, mental health, etc. It doesn't help there's a lot of people coming in from places like reddit or /pol/ that encourages even more insulation and professing certain kinds of views that usually get their espousers removed from other places.

That can add up to really be a curse. I still love free speech zones existing but it does run the risk occasionally of certain fringe views coming to dominate. And that's good or bad, depending on what those are, imo.

On how I deal. I usually have to laugh. And sometimes take a step back and do other shit to remind me that not everything is about "muh trannies. Muh suicide rates. Muh troons. All X are Y" and people can actually be yknow, normal.

I suspect there is another cause, especially for those that don't suffer from dysphoria (that is the belief they have always been women) yet are transexuals: Envy. I would put people like CWC in this category.

This also explains why most of them are MTF, which outnumber FTM by a lot. It's not that women can't have envy (obviously). But it's rather that men are envying something very specific.

I actually am legitimately by this point convinced that CWC had gender dysphoria issues for years but she's autistic and overcompensating. A lot of the "manly straight man i hate da homos" shit and other odd comments about gender begin to make sense in that context. CWC wouldn't have the understanding either because of a rather conservative upbringing that never really allowed for the kind of exploration we later saw (oftentimes in very unfortunate ways) starting in the tomgirl saga.

In other words, if they were truly women they wouldn't bother transitioning because the majority of real women live with their bodies because they happened to be born with them, not because they "feel right". The ultimate way of emulating a woman is to learn to love yourself as you are, imo.

IN THEORY, this works. But in practice we still have expectations that are way more harshly enforced against non-passing trans people that makes it untenable in the current state of affairs. As well as the fact that there's still body-related gender dysphoria that is shown to decrease with steps to transition. So thinking just purely practically, this train of thought fails.

And honestly this also feels very "have your cake and eat it too" in that you can just pull out this ideal when someone wants to pass or transition but then pull the "you're not even trying!" canard when the previous one is accepted.

It also really comes down to another "why not both?" deal in my case. Since I'm going through with it but am content knowing this is just part of what I am. This is pretty much my thinking on all issues about bodies, not just trans ones. People, motivated by loving themselves, can strive to improve their own bodies in whatever way they see fit. Transition, weight loss, getting gains at the gym, getting new tattoos or piercings. Just boiling it down to experiencing self-hate is simplistic.

 

[AnOminous]

I feel like there's a very unfair stigma against transition related surgery. What other kinds of currently medically approved surgery are considered "mutilation"? Not many.

Not many operations involve removing completely functional organs that are not diseased in any way.

 

[tiggles]

I was very tempted to get snarky with you. But I'll just be straight up.
1) It's not. Detransitioning is fine. The only thing that isn't fine is the cult-like subset that have decided that since it wasn't working for them, it doesn't work at all, in any case. They frequently hide behind this rhetoric.
2) Comparing being trans and/or having GD with Schizophrenics is bad. Its another rhetorical slight of hand that "sounds good" or like "common sense" but it betrays a major lack of understanding about psychology. It also ends up with people suggesting putting trans people on literal potentially brain-frying anti-psychotics which is much less humane than transition is.

Ah yes, lifelong negative impact on IQ, osteoperosis, infertility, increased stroke risk and that's just what I recall off the top of my head are a total cakewalk right? And that's just from the meds, lets not even get into all the plastic surgery. Transition as treatment sets people up for a disappointing life of trying to capture a dream that will never happen because we live in reality. TRANSITION, NOW! needs to be fucking shit canned so people like this guy can get treated for the actual mental disorder they have. Also, transgenderism is a linked comorbididy with schizophrenia so it's definitely apt to discuss them. It's also linked with autism but since everybody on this forum has that i'll let it slide.