General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[FatalTater]

I wonder how many ball-busting feminists of the 70's, 80's and 90's raised sons that grew up overhearing how awful men and masculinity are. Does your mommy hate your peen? There's a cure for that now!

I wish the ones that transition and then change their minds would speak out more, but apparently the LGBTOMGWTF community attacks them and tries to silence them if it happens.
Go on youtube and look up "detransition" sometime. Elle Palmer especially speaks well about what made her want to be male, and why she changed back.

 

[Thönnes Thielemann]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

 

[Fliddaroonie]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

I don't, if they're a friend I stop having anything to do with them. If it's a family member, god forbid, I would tell them I don't care and I'm not going to discuss any aspect of it with them.

Mentally sick people cannot be reasoned with, especially when their delusional fetish is practically state sanctioned at this point.

 

[bored loser]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

They can't be talked down once they identify as trans IME. Before, if they're just expressing gender dysphoria (if they even have that nowadays), then it's easier to say that it's OK to feel that way with out being trans.

By the point they come out, they've been told by everyone that anyone who doubts them or says anything bad is the enemy and they need to cut them off before they get literally murdered. They won't listen to any naysayers at that point.

Unfortunately there's really not much you can do. I think some parents had some success by taking away their teenaged kids' internet access and showing them proof, but I know some trans people who say that their parents mentioned detransitioning and therefore are abusive POS.

 

[AnOminous]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

It really depends how much you like the person. If you don't like the troon, you encourage their insanity and start up a KF thread on them to mock them.

If they're a really nice person you actually like (cry for my broken heart please) you let them know you will always be available for them but you're just not ever going to put up with their bullshit.

And then you hide your head between your knees and sob.

 

[bot_for_hire]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

There are threads like this:

How do I deprogram a troon? - Or put them on the steps to deprogramming themselves​

How to convince someone out of trooning out?​

 

[keke]

That runs into my other point though. Is it perfectly healthy or have hormones ruined it? You can't argue both but some people I've seen do.



I dunno man ask "feminists" who complain about "womanface" the "biology denial" shit is kind of a played out strawman now and betrays a lack of empathy for dysphoric experiences.

The point on woman face is so one sided. No one with any following I’ve seen complaining about it gives a fuck about trans susie who is just trying to live a good life, it’s about when they try and define womanhood for actual women around themselves, which is obviously dumb as fuck. Dysphoria is the defining factor, and they (the people feminist are actually complaining about and not average homosexual transsexual who was on hrt before it was cool) wanted to get rid of that as the defining aspect/make it more than it is so now people understandably don’t add a disclaimer to every post talking about the trans people who don’t clearly despise any woman who dares to even be confused when someone who their daughter new as their male classmate a month ago is now sharing a changing room with them because they started wearing floral. that was a long ass sentence.
The POV your taking is very deliberate and biased. I know because I used to think that way because it was easier. Calling it a played out straw man and un-empathetic is just too fucking glaring in the double standard for me to even touch, that’s just wilful ignorance. played out? Well wtf has changed? It’s only getting worse. And that’s the issue, the double blatant standard.
There is a reason plenty of secure, happy trans women can easily talk about the gender critical shit with the feminists (the ones that definitely don’t hate them, the ones who are sympathetic about dysphoria which there is an abundance of) and then log offline and keep ”living as a woman“ because they know the reality and are fine with it.

TLDR Like fucking sorry they don’t have time to be sympathetic about dysphoria when biological males are in women’s prisons and you’re only allowed to complained AFTER they rape/assault you. When trans women who abused their ex wives are at events speaking on trans issues and how you should use she/her even if a trans woman rapes you with their cock.

 

[DoTheDrew]

They can't be talked down once they identify as trans IME. Before, if they're just expressing gender dysphoria (if they even have that nowadays), then it's easier to say that it's OK to feel that way with out being trans.

By the point they come out, they've been told by everyone that anyone who doubts them or says anything bad is the enemy and they need to cut them off before they get literally murdered. They won't listen to any naysayers at that point.

Unfortunately there's really not much you can do. I think some parents had some success by taking away their teenaged kids' internet access and showing them proof, but I know some trans people who say that their parents mentioned detransitioning and therefore are abusive POS.

You're probably right, so the thing to do would be to reach them before that point. I talk insistently to the parents in my life about the dangers of unsupervised internet and the pitfalls that exist all over. Most normies don't know or want to know that these places exist, which is why it's doubly important to make them aware. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that one of the primary drivers of troon-ism (and every other identity-based malaise) comes from there. So, no tumblr, no twitter, and lock down their phones and computers like a maniac. I definitely see why many of the ideas are enticing to young people and that just makes it so much more important to shield kids from them until they have enough of a sense of self to resist.

Goddamn, I'm happy I don't have any kids in [current year].

 

[A Thick Piece of Meat]

science says transgender is legitimate and I trust doctors over forum posts.

Being Transgender Not a Mental Disorder, WHO Says

The term gender incongruence is used by the WHO to describe people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were assigned at birth.

www.webmd.com

 

[KateHikes14]

science says transgender is legitimate and I trust doctors over forum posts.

Being Transgender Not a Mental Disorder, WHO Says

The term gender incongruence is used by the WHO to describe people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were assigned at birth.

www.webmd.com

I didn't know it could speak without (human) oracles.

 

[Andy Bandy Man]

I wonder how many ball-busting feminists of the 70's, 80's and 90's raised sons that grew up overhearing how awful men and masculinity are. Does your mommy hate your peen? There's a cure for that now!

I always assumed their ingrained hatred of women would make them the ultimate bad boiz and chad up all the nice guys.

 

[keke]

You

science says transgender is legitimate and I trust doctors over forum posts.

Being Transgender Not a Mental Disorder, WHO Says

The term gender incongruence is used by the WHO to describe people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were assigned at birth.

www.webmd.com

You can find a “scientist” and “doctor” to agree with just about anything, including have troons in women’s sports. Most trans “science” is based on that pedophile psychiatrist who studied and abused that poor kid (and his brother) who had his dick zapped off in an old fashioned circumcision and eventually committed suicide because they the doctors convinced his parents to raise him as a girl. Meanwhile the psychiatrist would have the kids older brother hump and tell him he was in the woman’s role and his bro was in the mans. FUCKED.

It is still legitimate even though it is a mental disorder - you do know the only reason it changed was because of lobby groups that sell the hormones wanted to ensure doctors couldn’t get sued (or at least make it a infinitely more difficult to sue) for prescribing hrt to any and everyone.

What other mentality that drives someone to have intense and severe surgeries otherwise they’ll kill themselves? And that’s not a mental disorder? Be real. This is like the people who refuse to acknowledge the plausible possibility some men who would otherwise grow up to be heterosexual are gay because they were molested by a man as a child. That doesn’t mean all molested boys will grow up as gay, far from it, but it’s been observed. I just can’t believe in the era of COVID bullshit someone is reaching out to mainstream “science” for help, curb the appeal to authority grovelling. Same with some lesbians who would’ve been straight but are fearful of men due to past sexual abuse.

TLDR ur dumb

 

[Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite]

Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

In psychology training you are told never to confront a person's delusions because they will view you as the enemy. Its very difficult to convince someone their view of reality is so skewed that they literally can't trust themselves. Think of a schizophrenic. Telling them there just aren't voices won't work, because the voices for all events and purposes are real to them. You might as well tell them that the sky isn't actually blue. The way then you approach it, is framing it in terms of "I know the voice is real to you, but nobody else can hear it." They may not believe you nobody else hears it keep in mind, but that is a far more successful strategy that trying to flat out deny the reality they live.

Similarly, I think the strat for troons needs to be understood in this fashion. They are experiencing delusions in their way of thinking that makes them believe things that aren't real. And unfortunately there are now groups they can find telling them their delusion is not only super real but by indulging it they will make all their dreams come true. But at the end of the day, I think its a form of mental illness and if you're trying to talk someone out of it I would approach it in the same way you would someone having any other delusion.

 

[Let's Find Out!]

You can find a “scientist” and “doctor” to agree with just about anything, including have troons in women’s sports. Most trans “science” is based on that pedophile psychiatrist who studied and abused that poor kid (and his brother) who had his dick zapped off in an old fashioned circumcision and eventually committed suicide because they the doctors convinced his parents to raise him as a girl. Meanwhile the psychiatrist would have the kids older brother hump and tell him he was in the woman’s role and his bro was in the mans. FUCKED.

The twin brother Brian killed himself too. Two years before David.

And horrortroon Kevin Gibes wishes he had been like David Reimer.

 

[AnOminous]

science says transgender is legitimate and I trust doctors over forum posts.

Being Transgender Not a Mental Disorder, WHO Says

The term gender incongruence is used by the WHO to describe people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were assigned at birth.

www.webmd.com

Great! That means they don't get free insurance bucks for it or get the government to pay for them to troon out. Troonery is now a game for the rich!

 

[keke]

The twin brother Brian killed himself too. Two years before David.

And horrortroon Kevin Gibes wishes he had been like David Reimer.

I didn’t know that part. fucking awful. How their case has been represented and used by troons is sickening, like most things they get their hands on. Of all the shit that they’ve done, manipulating details about what happened to him and his brother and legitimising their abuse is top tier. It’s all so radioactive it means his (and his brothers, didn’t realise it was his actual twin either) story will never be truthful told.

 

[Let's Find Out!]

I didn’t know that part. fucking awful. How their case has been represented and used by troons is sickening, like most things they get their hands on. Of all the shit that they’ve done, manipulating details about what happened to him and his brother and legitimising their abuse is top tier. It’s all so radioactive it means his (and his brothers, didn’t realise it was his actual twin either) story will never be truthful told.

The twin thing was why John Money was so desperate to study them. Brian was the control and David was the experiment.

I can kind of see how trans people's logic goes with this - because David was NEVER trans; despite being raised as a girl and even given hormones, he knew deep down he was a boy. They use that to prove that they've always known they're the opposite sex on the inside, despite being raised as their "assigned" birth sex. Oh and also how TRAUMATIC it is to go through the "wrong" puberty and how VULNERABLE they are to suicide unless they can live as who they "really" are.

But everything that John Money has ever done is invalidated because of the abuse and horror he perpetuated and the lies he told in regard to his research. It is not legitimate gender studies research and to claim it as such and also to use it to prove your point is absolutely disgusting. David and Brian were traumatized by what John Money did to them his years of "research" and neither of them would have likely committed suicide if they weren't sexually abused by someone they were supposed to trust while also being his pet lab rats.

 

[keke]

The twin thing was why John Money was so desperate to study them. Brian was the control and David was the experiment.

I can kind of see how trans people's logic goes with this - because David was NEVER trans; despite being raised as a girl and even given hormones, he knew deep down he was a boy. They use that to prove that they've always known they're the opposite sex on the inside, despite being raised as their "assigned" birth sex. Oh and also how TRAUMATIC it is to go through the "wrong" puberty and how VULNERABLE they are to suicide unless they can live as who they "really" are.

But everything that John Money has ever done is invalidated because of the abuse and horror he perpetuated and the lies he told in regard to his research. It is not legitimate gender studies research and to claim it as such and also to use it to prove your point is absolutely disgusting. David and Brian were traumatized by what John Money did to them his years of "research" and neither of them would have likely committed suicide if they weren't sexually abused by someone they were supposed to trust while also being his pet lab rats.

Now that you’ve said that, I remember reading it before. I heard about it a few years ago, my memory is fuzzy. The logic is, as always, improvised bullshit. David’s case proves nothing about their narrative even ignoring the abuse and manipulation by John Money. He was never allowed to just be a person. He also wasn’t gender dysphoric, not like they are (or they're supposed to be, shoutout to the troons) It rather proves the opposite. I should explain that reasoning more but it’s been so long I can’t remember how I articulated it before and I’d just butcher it now cause I’m so tired, there was a good post explaining it a while ago but I really don’t wanna try and look for it because as you probably know the web results are full of literal disinformation and propaganda.

 

[AnOminous]

And horrortroon Kevin Gibes wishes he had been like David Reimer.

So he wishes he would have killed himself? I don't know, I'd be okay with that.

 

[Father Brown]

The Reimer case is a strange one. It sticks around and gets as much air time as it does, because everyone seems to think it specifically confirms their priors. Troons believe is demonstrates that some kind of inborn gender identity exists, while critics like it because of a perceived analogy to contemporary care and because they feel that it demonstrates some evilness at the heart of trooning out children.

None of these things are really true. What Reimer was subject to doesn't really bear any real significance to modern troon 'treatments' and whether the conceptual language was originated by Money is ultimately irrelevant. For one, Money wasn't 'affirming' Reimer so much as he was attempting to condition or 'teach' him to 'be a girl.' You see the problem with Brenda (David's female name) was that she was an extremely boyish girl, the impression you get is that Brenda went way over being a mere 'tomboy. She found herself unable to make friends with girls, was bullied as 'cave woman' and . Interestingly, she did not actually seem to doubt that she was a girl until around the age of 9; this would be late by pediatric troon standards. However, these early doubts don't actually seem to be very organic, the (admittedly unprovable) feeling I have is that it was actually the experiences with Money and the demands for her to a vagina constructed that occurred around this time that actually triggered David's progressive realization.

In fact, in some strange sense Money was right that at least 'gender identity' is substantially, but not totally a matter of socialization. This is seen in the pattern of identification of XY intersex children; gender them as boys and they will almost all remain as boys, gender them as girls and a significant fraction will end up living as men. More conclusively, this study found that 5/14 hormonally normal boys born with cloacal exstrophy assigned female at birth remained female at follow-up. It is possible that more of them transitioned after the completion of the study (one of them was only 9 years old at follow-up), but it seems that despite all of the children being masculine at least a fraction were nonetheless comfortable being raised as girls. Of the 9 that did transition, four of them assumed their male identities after having been informed of their genetic status which may or may not mean anything, since it could have been proffered by their parents in response to gender-related issues or spontaneously given.

It didn't really work out with David, which is not unsurprising but not knowable a priori. The problem with David was probably just a mixture of chance factors combined with the fact that he seems to have been highly masculine even as a boy. As I said before, Money, ironically, probably shot himself in the foot by attempting to feminize David's behavior since it seems that his efforts helped catalyze David's desire to be a boy. This is analogous to how ethnic minorities with stronger gender norms produce more troons.

After his father tells him what had happened when he was an infant; the destruction of his penis, the decision to raise him as a girl etc., David 'transitions' into a boy at the age of 14, in this capacity he actually finds instant sympathy and quickly becomes somewhat popular as a boy and acquires himself a girlfriend. From here on out, he actually seems to have lived a reasonably happy and fulfilled life for a time. He gets married, raises some step-kids etc.. Unfortunately his brother, Brian fairs much less well, developing severe psychiatric issues before overdosing on anti-depressants. In the two years after Brian's death, it seems that David's life falls apart, he becomes severely depressed (blaming himself for Brian's problems) while also becoming unemployed himself. His wife eventually decides to ask for a divorce and two days later David commits suicide in a car park.

Despite, the tragic ending, I don't think it is possible to meaingfully conclude that it was Money who "really" killed David let alone Brian. David's death - to me at least - seems like a death of despair like any other, and while maybe in his last moments David thought about Money, I don't know that it really mattered. David hadn't seen Money for over 25 years; all the skin-crawling play acting seems remote and frankly irrelevant in the face of the problems facing David at the time of his death. It seems that attributions of blame for David's death are entirely motivated by a desire to make David's ghost serve their ends than it is by any consideration of the facts.

----

In the end, the Reimer case shows little of anything. It is a case study within a wider literature demonstrating that gender-related expressive inclinations are strongly influenced by pre-natal factors*. Most probably by exposure to androgens and estrogens. Just like the rest of this literature, it does not provide evidence for the existence of 'gender identity' as an inborn and essentially biological feature of humans. It is at best agnostic on the subject, and realistically I should think that it is weakly opposed to the notion. You cannot separate behavioral dispositions from identity formations, because David was plainly masculine from the age of 2-3 until his death. It is perfectly valid to conclude that the male identity that he assumed at the age of 14 and probably desired from the age of at least 11 was the product of his failure to fit as a girl as opposed to any innate need to be socially oriented or perceived as a boy.

The case doesn't provide much insight for clinicians beyond a general caution against attempting to alter basic behavioral inclinations. Nobody seeks to do such things anymore, and since at least the 1990s this has been the consensus view with respect to gender-related therapy. It should also be noted that David's behavioral inclinations were very likely much stronger than most gender dysphoric or non-conforming children's are. Moreover, his general psychological profile was likely much more discordant with his assigned gender than most such children's are. Finally, if behavior-identity incongruence is acceptable (i.e. "It's OK to like Barbies as a boy!"), which everyone (except the Iranian ayatollahs) claims is the case, then it provides no guidance into whether it is reasonable to "affirm" a child in a cross-sex identity as opposed to help them accept themselves as a non-conforming member of their birth-sex.


And, as a post-script: it has literally no revelance for definitely (birth-sex) gender-conforming degenerates like Mr. Gibes.


*EDIT: I thought I'd elaborate slightly on this point. It is not that pre and peri-natal hormone exposures necessarily determine behavioral preferences for all time or that they can't be modified. Rather, it produces some basal psychological profile that in turn tends to motivate a particular pattern of behavior. Motivation not capacity plays the central role in producing superficial patterns of gendered behavior. You can therefore change those patterns and indeed change them in a way that would not be perceived as coercive by the subject but, only if you can change their motivations.

This is not really saying all that much, and is in fact totally uncontroversial since it is merely explaining that heterosexual troons should exist. The key issue is that altering motivation within a therapeutic context is difficult and probably impossible on any consistent basis if that context doesn't encompass very nearly the subject's entire existence. Hence, why clinicians like Ken Zucker take an approach that focuses on reconciliation and conscious raising as opposed to behavioral modification per se, unless the child exhibits behaviors that would be problematic even in a gender-conforming child.

Moreover, it seems that when this does happen incidentally (as in the case of most troons) it does so for reasons that seem positively dysfunctional, i.e. through sexually-derived obsessions producing some change in affective disposition towards assuming opposite sex roles.