General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

teriyakiburns

Uncle O'Ruckus
kiwifarms.net
Despite, the tragic ending, I don't think it is possible to meaingfully conclude that it was Money who "really" killed David let alone Brian.
He made them simulate sex in his office, when they were children. You want to try and convince me that isn't the direct cause of Brian's emotional and psychological trauma? Fuck off with this hagiographic bullshit.
 

Father Brown

kiwifarms.net
I think it is strained to argue for a definitive causal relationship. Remember that Brian was the brother (actually identical twin), and though he had to participate in these "simulations," it seems reasonable to suggest that it would have been less distressing for him. Moreover, it is probably worth noting that for most of David & Brian's childhood, they only saw Money once a year. The 'therapy' - traumatic as it may have been - was thus not particularly intensive.

You cannot of course, provably dissociate childhood experiences from adulthood well-being, but my judgement is that - on balance - it is probably not the central factor behind Brian's schizophrenia and severe depression. And if you can accept that, then it would not be implausible to suggest that David may have been at substantially elevated risk of severe depression (there is a significant genetic component) which could then combine with the very real hardship of long term unemployment, the death of his brother and then his divorce (the event that triggered his suicide). You could of course argue that his unemployment and marital breakdown were caused by depression/trauma or whatever else, but the less proximate you make the causal route, the less likely we should consider it to be.
 
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AnOminous

とても可愛い
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
Despite, the tragic ending, I don't think it is possible to meaingfully conclude that it was Money who "really" killed David let alone Brian. David's death - to me at least - seems like a death of despair like any other, and while maybe in his last moments David thought about Money, I don't know that it really mattered.
It wasn't merely his medical theory or actual treatment that makes Money a monster, but his literal child molestation and forcing two brothers to engage in sexual activities with each other. There was absolutely no medical justification for that whatsoever. It was just Money being a disgusting pervert.

There is also the fraudulent representation that this contemptible malpractice had been some kind of a huge success when in fact it was an unmitigated disaster, a misrepresentation that has affected thousands of people since.

An "experiment" in which both the test case and the control end up dead by suicide can hardly be described as a success even by the most enthusiastic proponent.

I think it is strained to argue for a definitive causal relationship. Remember that Brian was the brother (actually identical twin), and though he had to participate in these "simulations," it seems reasonable to suggest that it would have been less distressing for him. Moreover, it is probably worth noting that for most of David & Brian's childhood, they only saw Money once a year. The 'therapy' - traumatic as it may have been - was thus not particularly intensive.
Are you fucking trolling? You're literally saying "yeah he molested them but it's okay because it was only once a year?"

Or are you really a Catholic priest?
 

Shovel Mech Pilot

Backhoe Firestarter
kiwifarms.net
Not sure if this has already been asked, but if someone you know comes out as "trans" or entertains the idea and you know it's because of a troony reason, how do you talk them down from it?

I'm not speaking from experience but I think you'd have to do it subtly. If you come out and say what's on your mind they will code it as "transphobic" and perform the mental equivalent of a Windows 98 blue screen. I'd say go with the socratic method. Ask questions designed to bring them to a certain conclusion rather than telling them.
 
We shouldn't allow this kind of foolishness to continue. Instead, we should treat gender dysphoria as what it is- a mental illness. The cure is not surgery, the cure is not trooning out. The cure is forming a healthy binary spectrum in which one can be as masculine or feminine as they want within their gender, and make that position their own. A man can be feminine, and a woman can be masculine. There's nothing wrong or unnatural about that. A man or a woman attempting to mutilate themselves in pursuit of jumping onto the opposite axis is wrong and unnatural.
Why can't you be a feminine male on HRT? Why are you suturing gender identity politics to morphological autonomy like the TRAs? You are positing a false dichotomy between delusional AGPs who take estrogen and sober gender dysphoric repressors. Put it that way it obviously sounds unreasonable, but this narrative is important to your proposal, namely that we should adopt less rigid gender norms to remedy this. Of course, by the time such a freedom is permitted, it is senseless why a man shouldn't get boobs if he really wants to. Part of this position's intelligibility also rests on an etiological claim which isn't a necessary true. Why does desire to align with a particular sign (that of womanhood or manhood) precede the desire for morphological attributes? It's unfounded.
for not wanting a blatantly chauvinist display of masculine disregard for the feminine graces and nuances to exist. It is as blackface is to the black man- a man who knows only the most basic of things about a woman decides that he shall put on his woman clothes, and become a woman.
I personally find this section bizarre, and irrationally detached from genuine criticisms of gender ideology. "masculine disregard" as well as "feminine graces and nuances" just sounds strange. It just sounds like a purely aesthetic evaluation of the issue at hand which I don't believe is a good foundation for sober criticism. You should probably have this part of yourself pertaining to disgust checked out.

This is the quintessential "there's black people and there's niggers" Chris Rock bit applied to transgenderism. We all love to applaud that kind of thing because it simultaneously allows us to point and laugh at the excesses, while we also get to pat ourselves on the back for being nice to "the good ones".
Yeah, uncle TiMs irk me, though I am coming from a completely different perspective as to why. To me it seems to be an unhealthy and unproductive way to deal with one's self-hatred.
In the end your whining that we should do away with exactly only the ideals that you don't conform to is completely self-serving and has not taken into account the bigger picture.
This is a good point, and I think it is probably symptomatic of a larger issue related to (anti-)SJWism. You can't enforce how people should treat you, and legal means are off the table. You can only affect them via psychological operations. This might be effective, but quite a bit of work. That's also why it's much more important to focus on securing material things. Social acceptance is a completely different ballpark, and is really most important when it comes to securing jobs.
 

teriyakiburns

Uncle O'Ruckus
kiwifarms.net
Why can't you be a feminine male
Nothing wrong with that, but-
Well. HRT doesn't make a man more "feminine", it just makes him fat, stupid, and massively more prone to heart disease and hypertension because it's fucking with his endocrine system and throwing it all out of balance. Any "femininity" that emerges during the process results from his misguided or otherwise) perceptions of femininity rather than from any internal physiological or psychological changes brought on by his substance abuse.
 

Large

kiwifarms.net
Why can't you be a feminine male on HRT? Why are you suturing gender identity politics to morphological autonomy like the TRAs? You are positing a false dichotomy between delusional AGPs who take estrogen and sober gender dysphoric repressors. Put it that way it obviously sounds unreasonable, but this narrative is important to your proposal, namely that we should adopt less rigid gender norms to remedy this. Of course, by the time such a freedom is permitted, it is senseless why a man shouldn't get boobs if he really wants to. Part of this position's intelligibility also rests on an etiological claim which isn't a necessary true. Why does desire to align with a particular sign (that of womanhood or manhood) precede the desire for morphological attributes? It's unfounded.

I personally find this section bizarre, and irrationally detached from genuine criticisms of gender ideology. "masculine disregard" as well as "feminine graces and nuances" just sounds strange. It just sounds like a purely aesthetic evaluation of the issue at hand which I don't believe is a good foundation for sober criticism. You should probably have this part of yourself pertaining to disgust checked out.


Yeah, uncle TiMs irk me, though I am coming from a completely different perspective as to why. To me it seems to be an unhealthy and unproductive way to deal with one's self-hatred.

This is a good point, and I think it is probably symptomatic of a larger issue related to (anti-)SJWism. You can't enforce how people should treat you, and legal means are off the table. You can only affect them via psychological operations. This might be effective, but quite a bit of work. That's also why it's much more important to focus on securing material things. Social acceptance is a completely different ballpark, and is really most important when it comes to securing jobs.
Why are you replying to posts from 2019?
 

Longcat

Antisocial Injustice Wizard
kiwifarms.net
Something that’s been bugging me lately - the “non binary” label and how many people out there either defend it or don’t question it, when it’s rather meaningless when you think about it. Non binaries like to deny it having anything to do with gender stereotypes and roles or discomfort with one’s physical anatomy - see all the Tumblr posts with “uwu enbies are all valid even if u conform to the gender roles of your assigned sex at birth or don’t have dysphoria!”

So what does that leave us with? “I’m NB because I don’t feel male or female” is the explanation I see used most often, but that raises another big question - what exactly is a “male” feeling or a “female” one? I have yet to see an adequate explanation for this, the answer is usually “because it just feels right!” or “you don’t understand”. It’s comparable to saying something like “I may be a human physically but I feel like a cat, I just do, even if you don’t understand, don’t question it or call me a human because if you do you’re a bigot”. It’s just another subculture all wrapped up in political language, and the people who subscribe to it are almost entirely ultra left wing, usually to the point of thinking communism is a good idea, if they aren’t children/teens or people who never outgrew their “look at me I’m so rebellious” phase and are stuck in the teenage mindset. I’ve noticed a ton of people lately announcing their new gender identity and pronouns, and have yet to see one who doesn’t fit either of those criteria.
 

bored loser

kiwifarms.net
Something that’s been bugging me lately - the “non binary” label and how many people out there either defend it or don’t question it, when it’s rather meaningless when you think about it. Non binaries like to deny it having anything to do with gender stereotypes and roles or discomfort with one’s physical anatomy - see all the Tumblr posts with “uwu enbies are all valid even if u conform to the gender roles of your assigned sex at birth or don’t have dysphoria!”

So what does that leave us with? “I’m NB because I don’t feel male or female” is the explanation I see used most often, but that raises another big question - what exactly is a “male” feeling or a “female” one? I have yet to see an adequate explanation for this, the answer is usually “because it just feels right!” or “you don’t understand”. It’s comparable to saying something like “I may be a human physically but I feel like a cat, I just do, even if you don’t understand, don’t question it or call me a human because if you do you’re a bigot”. It’s just another subculture all wrapped up in political language, and the people who subscribe to it are almost entirely ultra left wing, usually to the point of thinking communism is a good idea, if they aren’t children/teens or people who never outgrew their “look at me I’m so rebellious” phase and are stuck in the teenage mindset. I’ve noticed a ton of people lately announcing their new gender identity and pronouns, and have yet to see one who doesn’t fit either of those criteria.
I used to identify as nonbinary. I'd say a lot of the girls who get swept into it have body image issues, especially around having breasts. And since they don't have bottom dysphoria, they think they must be nonbinary.

Then there's some who take the "feeling like a woman" seriously, and since they obviously don't have that because it's fake, they assume they must be nonbinary.

And then the rest are attention whores. And yeah, they all would move to the USSR if they could.
 

Longcat

Antisocial Injustice Wizard
kiwifarms.net
I used to identify as nonbinary. I'd say a lot of the girls who get swept into it have body image issues, especially around having breasts. And since they don't have bottom dysphoria, they think they must be nonbinary.

Then there's some who take the "feeling like a woman" seriously, and since they obviously don't have that because it's fake, they assume they must be nonbinary.

And then the rest are attention whores. And yeah, they all would move to the USSR if they could.
Problem is I’ve seen a lot of these “coming out” posts from grown ass women in their 20s and 30s who have already gone through puberty, and have no issue wearing feminine clothing that highlights their breasts - it’s all ideological for them as they’re all very far left and so immersed in the gender ideology they’ve convinced themselves that not being a basic Becky makes them somehow not female.

These women might have begun as “allies” with she/her in the bio to show their support for the ideology, but as they get further into it, just being supportive isn’t enough - they have to fit in with the troon crowd, and the gender cult teaches them that not liking to wear high heels and makeup or being a hardcore gamer puts them outside of the “woman” box so they change the pronouns in their bio to she/they or just they/them, some of them will adopt a trendy gender neutral name like Arden or Brynn, and call themselves enbies. Most likely they won’t seek any medical interventions, maybe a double mastectomy just to prove that they’re devoted to their new identity. Quite a few of them are in relationships with men who are just as immersed in the ideology, or humour them as they don’t want to lose their girlfriends/wives.

These cases to me are the epitome of “because I say so” non binary identification. They have zero issues with their anatomy, it’s all motivated by ideology and a desire to fit in with those who share their beliefs.
 

REMEMBERMKULTRA

What else are they lying about?
kiwifarms.net
Nothing wrong with that, but-

Well. HRT doesn't make a man more "feminine", it just makes him fat, stupid, and massively more prone to heart disease and hypertension because it's fucking with his endocrine system and throwing it all out of balance. Any "femininity" that emerges during the process results from his misguided or otherwise) perceptions of femininity rather than from any internal physiological or psychological changes brought on by his substance abuse.
Doesn't HRT mess with your bones?
 

Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite

2016 Oppression Olympics Bronze Medalist
kiwifarms.net
1614396399113.png


A tranny posted as part of a long explanation as to why defending the Assigned Male comic creator for being a pedophile was a bad thing. I just wanted to highlight it somewhere on the site, because this is the very point a lot of people are making about trans people particularly in gender-segregated areas.

I know men who don't want an FTM in the male bathroom because they legit worry about how crazy bitches be about screaming rape claims over non-rapey situations and with how urinals work sometimes penises are out around someone. There's plenty of women vocalizing this exact rhetoric about why they don't want MTFs in their bathrooms/showers/jails. Sometimes if someone is uncomfortable with you its because you're fucking weird, not because they're a nazi.
 

vageen haver

terfy terfy teep teep
kiwifarms.net
Less and less men have penis now so many people get sex change operation surgery recently penis be falling off it’s going to be really rare for people to have penis in the future babies will be born in test tube babies no more penis for men.
Nice 😎

I used to identify as nonbinary. I'd say a lot of the girls who get swept into it have body image issues, especially around having breasts. And since they don't have bottom dysphoria, they think they must be nonbinary.

Then there's some who take the "feeling like a woman" seriously, and since they obviously don't have that because it's fake, they assume they must be nonbinary.

And then the rest are attention whores. And yeah, they all would move to the USSR if they could.

There's also a significant proportion who just want to identify away from womanhood because of how much it can suck.

The sheer number of FtMs and female "enbies" I've known who also have sexual trauma is too damn high.

As a card-carrying TERF with two X chromosomes, I don't have as much experience with/knowledge of the penis-bearer side of things, but I'm pretty sure the reverse can be true as well. Kid sucks at stereotypical masculinity, gets the snot beaten out of him as a result; troons out in his late thirties because putting on a skirt and calling himself a transbian is so much easier than acknowledging he's just not the kind of dude his dad wanted him to be.
 

Cactus Wings

Coughing for Cash
kiwifarms.net
As a card-carrying TERF with two X chromosomes, I don't have as much experience with/knowledge of the penis-bearer side of things, but I'm pretty sure the reverse can be true as well. Kid sucks at stereotypical masculinity, gets the snot beaten out of him as a result; troons out in his late thirties because putting on a skirt and calling himself a transbian is so much easier than acknowledging he's just not the kind of dude his dad wanted him to be.
I feel you really can just boil this entire practice in mind gymnastics down to this. Being a 'real' man is bad, yes, and so is punishing a failure to achieve this state. These people have the depth of a plate, so they latch onto anything that can remotely be described as a personality trait, ie. being transgender. Back when I was a teen, it was cool to be bi or pan. The longer your explanation, the better. To be 'gay' was boring and uninteresting.

They probably grew up unable to perform as a real man or woman, maybe even having interest in the polar opposite of their gender's typical attire. But since everything is so black and white, this obviously meant they too were the polar opposite. Woah! I was a girl all along? I guess stockings were cute, but now it makes sense that I also suddenly love high heels and big red lips, even though I've never thought of these before, but they're considered to be down the same road as this one set of stockings I love!

Instead of thinking "maybe I'm just a guy who happens to find lolita fashion cute", they go "I like lolita fashion, clearly everything else is in the wrong, because all my friends and idols now say I'm trans". The fact femboy has basically been converted to some kind of tranny vibe is almost as clear-cut as it can get. Take over, assimilate, convert, control. My life is a fucking disaster, and so too should everyone else's be. Confident in your heterosexuality? You're not straight until you fuck a balding man in a skirt!
 

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