God Emperor of Dune - Confusing, confounding and utterly brilliant. -

[Stilgar of Troon]

@Gaius Caesar and I got into a potentially derailing discussion in another thread, so here we are. @God Emperor , I'm assuming you'll probably have some input to share, too; unless your u/n & avatar are history's greatest red herrings...

There will fairly obviously be spoilers in here for GEoD, so if you haven't read the book, this thread is probably not for you.

Where to start? With the primary players, I guess.

Leto II, the titular God Emperor: Tyrannical sociopathic monster, or the greatest martyr of all time?

Moneo Atreides: Devoted majordomo or a slave to routine and tradition?

Siona Atreides : First true seed of the Golden Path or reckless anarchist?

Hwi Noree: Human espionage weapon or the Redeemer of Leto's humanity?

Duncan Idaho: Rebellious anachronism or the last bastion of traditional human values?

I know there's plenty of others to cover, Nayla, Malky, Garun, The Ixians, the Bene Gesserit, the Bene Tleilax...

Those who have read it once or more, what do you think of it overall and about the specifics above?

 

[NOT Sword Fighter Super]

I mean, you probably could have just turned this into a DM that everybody else eventually gets added into until it turns into a total shitshow like most mass DMs do.

That would have probably been more funny.

 

[Reverend]

This book was an attempt to take all the threads from all the insane gibberish that was tossed into all the tangentical novels, short stories, and other works of fiction and provide some sort of Closure yet allow for more books to run in the series.

It was interesting at times but fucking boring for most of it. I wanted to punch Duncan Idaho over and over and kill Leto myself to get the book overwith.

The concepts are interesting: Funnel all the power into one person, all the hatred of the universe, then upon their death unleash humanity to explore the galaxy like no other free to roam as they've never before. Death to Rebirth. A common theme in Dune lore.

 

[cumrobbery]

I'm just confused on how the fuck his name is Duncan Idaho if it takes place in the far far future when Idaho probably doesn't even exist anymore
Is it ever explained? Don't remember

 

[Gaius Caesar]

I'm just confused on how the fuck his name is Duncan Idaho if it takes place in the far far future when Idaho probably doesn't even exist anymore
Is it ever explained? Don't remember

It's never explained, it's either a modern version of his name that would be understandable in modern English or similar to many surnames in various languages that reference places that either no longer exist or are far removed from any connection to their source.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Is Dune worth a read then? I watched the Syfy films, Children of Dune and then the film they made. Also watched a lot of that Quinns ideas guy who verbally cums about it.

 

[Stilgar of Troon]

As irritating as Idaho was for a lot of GEoD, you have to feel a little sympathy for someone in that unique position. To go from being an exemplar of his kind, in his original life, to being the genetic "poor cousin" to everyone around him (BTFO'd by Moneo, a senior citizen and desk jockey), not to mention all the previous versions of him and the constant reminders from others that those previous versions existed and had their own lives where he now stood... Not terribly surprising he went off the deep end, really.

Is Dune worth a read then? I watched the Syfy films, Children of Dune and then the film they made. Also watched a lot of that Quinns ideas guy who verbally cums about it.

The first four are definitely worth a read; Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune and GEoD, but after that, it gets patchy, although there are some great parts in the two books that follow.

 

[Gaius Caesar]

Is Dune worth a read then? I watched the Syfy films, Children of Dune and then the film they made. Also watched a lot of that Quinns ideas guy who verbally cums about it.

Absolutely worth a read, it's one of the big pillars of modern speculative fiction. It's not really science fiction because technology is only incidental to the plot and only really shows up in the last two novels (precisely because of the events in the prior four).

 

[Reverend]

Is Dune worth a read then? I watched the Syfy films, Children of Dune and then the film they made. Also watched a lot of that Quinns ideas guy who verbally cums about it.

Find the SpiceDiver Dune Redeux edit and watch that. It's fucking Amazing. 4 hours long and it's the Dune movie you want.

Barring that read the first book and stop after that, it all goes down hill from there. Also his son is a hack.

 

[Stilgar of Troon]

Find the SpiceDiver Dune Redeux edit and watch that. It's fucking Amazing. 4 hours long and it's the Dune movie you want.

Barring that read the first book and stop after that, it all goes down hill from there. Also his son is a hack.

I'd disagree on stopping at the first book but vehemently agree on his spawn being a hack. I wouldn't let him write a shopping list, were it up to me.

 

[Gaius Caesar]

In terms of the original questions...I think Leto II was both tyrant and martyr, but not a sociopath. During his 3,000+ year reign it's noted nobody went hungry and life was really quite pleasant for those under his rule, even if it was stagnant and confined due to his control of the remaining spice and the aid of his religious Fish Speakers and related worship of him as a God, almost like the High Middle Ages IRL. After his death the Empire fell into a period of chaos and instability very similar to that of the Late Middle Ages and the later Age of Discovery.

He also firmly and unequivocally breached the proscriptions of the Butlerian Jihad through his efforts with the Ixians, which also helped to free humanity from stagnation after his death through their navigation computers.

Although I am biased in regards to Hwi Noree, I think she was really the redeemer of Leto's humanity.

 

[Gaius Caesar]

The first four are definitely worth a read; Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune and GEoD, but after that, it gets patchy, although there are some great parts in the two books that follow.

For me, Heretics is my favorite after GEoD...it's just such a wild change of pace from the other novels because of how pervasive technology and how much has changed due to the Scattering. Teg/Lucilla/Burzmali's experience in Ysai is more like something out of a more traditional "sci-fi" setting than anything else in the entire series.

Chapterhouse, honestly I thought was a mixed bag.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

My opinion of God Emperor is that it's when the series spiraled down the drain.

It was showing some cracks in Children of Dune. But, it was coherent...

God Emperor is the ramblings of a mad prophet.

Still, I trudged through it. I gave up about halfway through heretics. Never even attempted Chapterhouse.

I'm perfectly fine taking the original Dune as a masterpiece. Messiah being solid followup. Children being a flawed but enjoyable finale for me...

 

[Stilgar of Troon]

In terms of the original questions...I think Leto II was both tyrant and martyr, but not a sociopath. During his 3,000+ year reign it's noted nobody went hungry and life was really quite pleasant for those under his rule, even if it was stagnant and confined due to his control of the remaining spice and the aid of his religious Fish Speakers and related worship of him as a God, almost like the High Middle Ages IRL. After his death the Empire fell into a period of chaos and instability very similar to that of the Late Middle Ages and the later Age of Discovery.

He also firmly and unequivocally breached the proscriptions of the Butlerian Jihad through his efforts with the Ixians, which also helped to free humanity from stagnation after his death through their navigation computers.

Although I am biased in regards to Hwi Noree, I think she was really the redeemer of Leto's humanity.

Agreed, he wasn't the monster he was made out to be by Siona et al, even Moneo made the distinction between The Worm and God, but it's easy to see how a portion of a stagnant population like that could easily grow to hate him. His Golden Path must have seemed like the admonitions of some parents about why their children should listen to them and behave like so, with the exception, I guess, that Siona, Nayla and the rest (bar poor old quasi-immortal Duncan) never lived long enough to see Leto proven right.

For me, Heretics is my favorite after GEoD...it's just such a wild change of pace from the other novels because of how pervasive technology and how much has changed due to the Scattering. Teg/Lucilla/Burzmali's experience in Ysai is more like something out of a more traditional "sci-fi" setting than anything else in the entire series.

Chapterhouse, honestly I thought was a mixed bag.

The Miles Teg sections were far and away my favourite bits of that book, especially once he went beyond the pale as a Mentat and became something akin to a Kwisatz Haderach.
I liked Odrade, too, I thought she was a touch of humanization that the BG would have faltered without. The whole "returnees from the Scattering" arc was good, as well, all so familiar yet slightly different. I was sad to see so little done with the Futars and their mysterious Handlers, though; it's implied that they're more than capable of dispatching an Honored Matre, yet absent a Handler, they're docile and pet-like. What weird brand of Tleilaxu tinkering brought them into being, I wonder?

Chapterhouse was definitely mixed, I could not bring myself to root for Sheanna, I kept wishing Odrade would give her a thick ear, frankly.

 

[HumanHive]

The only good thing that came out of GEoD was 40k
Don’t @ me

 

[Y2K Baby]

The only good thing that came out of GEoD was 40k
Don’t @ me

40k is for fucking faggots.

 

[Gaius Caesar]

Agreed, he wasn't the monster he was made out to be by Siona et al, even Moneo made the distinction between The Worm and God, but it's easy to see how a portion of a stagnant population like that could easily grow to hate him. His Golden Path must have seemed like the admonitions of some parents about why their children should listen to them and behave like so, with the exception, I guess, that Siona, Nayla and the rest (bar poor old quasi-immortal Duncan) never lived long enough to see Leto proven right.

That's why I tend to think of Leto II's rule like that of a High Middle Ages king (which he no doubt knew from his Other Memory)....the Jihad of Paul's era was long gone, just like the threat of the Islamic invasions were for Europe during the same period...the Battle of Roncevaux Pass and the related tales of chivalry and medieval romance were as far back in history during the High Middle Ages as Shakespeare is from today.

Much like under Leto's peace many of those accounts became stories and epics in a peaceful, if stagnant universe....he himself noted (IIRC) heroic epics were a favorite of peoples across theImperium.

The Miles Teg sections were far and away my favourite bits of that book, especially once he went beyond the pale as a Mentat and became something akin to a Kwisatz Haderach. I liked Odrade, too, I thought she was a touch of humanization that the BG would have faltered without. The whole "returnees from the Scattering" arc was good, as well, all so familiar yet slightly different. I was sad to see so little done with the Futars and their mysterious Handlers, though; it's implied that they're more than capable of dispatching an Honored Matre, yet absent a Handler, they're docile and pet-like. What weird brand of Tleilaxu tinkering brought them into being, I wonder?

Chapterhouse was definitely mixed, I could not bring myself to root for Sheanna, I kept wishing Odrade would give her a thick ear, frankly.

Me too, plus the resolution with the Honored Matres and Murbella was a bit weak, I never really liked Sheanna as compared to Siona, either. Odrade was a major favorite for me, though, especially with her interactions with Taraza. Dar and Tar for life.

I am really wondering what Frank's long-term plans were for the exile Tleilaxu and the Futars as we had only one weird (and quite frankly creepy) mention of a Futar in Heretics and then more in Chapterhouse, but it was never explained just what the Handlers knew and how they could defeat the Honored Matres. By the Eternal Rock of Dur, I want to know!

 

[God Emperor]

I reread the Dune series, from the original 'Dune' to 'Chapterhouse: Dune' about once a year, more or less, and have for about... oh, nearly 20 years now, and 'God Emperor of Dune' remains my obvious favourite, the climax of the entire series where Herbert really gets to stretch his legs and expand on his favourite topics after all of the world building of the first three books and before the denouement of the last two.

'Children of Dune' is the weakest link for me, it's muddled and seems like a necessary chore bridging the earlier novels, without the grand operatic themes, too many story lines, and a plot which just kind of meanders forward to a sudden and unsatisfying ending (this may be deliberate, considering that the book takes place during the stagnation and decline of the Atreides Empire and the first steps that were taking humanity to extinction since Paul refused to walk the Golden Path).

Oftentimes, while reading the series, I just skip over it.

Part of what makes 'God Emperor of Dune' so amazing is that the answer to all of your questions is that both, seemingly contradictory, aspects of each character are simultaneously true; paradox is one of the primary themes of the book!

Malky is, for example, the closest person Leto II could call a friend, he genuinely loved and understood him and yet plotted to destroy him.

The God Emperor is an absolute tyrant, and yet he secretly works to foster true human independence of thought and self-determination and actively bred and encouraged the very revolutionaries who would come to murder him and overthrow his universal empire.

Nayla is a true believer, she has rare and pure faith and would sacrifice anything, even her own life, to protect the God Emperor and yet becomes the very one to kill him.

I mean, Herbert isn't exactly subtle about it, he references paradox and strange loops many times throughout the series, it is the basis of the problem of prescience and of his commentary on power - once you see the story through this perspective, it's hard not to see it everywhere.

'God Emperor' is about humanity itself, what it means to be human and why that has value, why it is unique and beautiful and deserves to survive by breaking our self-destructive urge to turn inwards upon ourselves.

It's also about psychedelic drugs, space worms, and religious orgies so what's not to love?

 

[The-Patriarchy]

God Emporer of Dune is by far, the strongest of the dune novels.

It's really the centerpiece of the series, althought, I suspec if Herbert had the chance to author a followup to Chapterhouse that might have been able to top it.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

God Emperor makes more sense when you realize that Leto II planned all of it all along, from Siona to Siona killing him.

He couldn't "see" Siona, but he could definitely see Duncan and Nayla.

Now that you've read GEOD, get a .pdf of The Dune Encyclopedia and read it. Willis E. McNelly worked off of an early manuscript of GEOD and bits of Heretics.

Also when you see anything that says it's by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson, you kill it with fire. It's consigned to the burn pit.

edit: And with everything else Dune, it helps if you have a working knowledge of Latin. Moneo literally means "I advise." Frank Herbert's Irish Catholic roots definitely show in the books.

another edit: It was Willis E. McNelly not Willis Carto. Frank Herbert would likely have had very few words to say to Carto, probably less than he had to say to Iron Maiden when they tried to get the rights for Dune for one of their songs.