GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

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Smaug's Smokey Hole

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Intel's Alder Lake CPUs May Not Work With Older Games

Intel recently shared a developer guide for its forthcoming 12th Generation Alder Lake processors. Gamer's Gospel discovered an interesting tidbit that DRM solutions, such as Denuvo will require updates to support Alder Lake's hybrid design.
....
"If your existing or upcoming game uses a DRM middleware, you might want to contact the middleware provider and confirm that it supports hybrid architectures in general, and the upcoming Intel ADL platform in particular. Due to the nature of modern DRM algorithms, it might use CPU detection, and should be aware of the upcoming hybrid platforms. Intel is working with leading DRM providers such as Denuvo* to make sure their solutions support new platforms."

Could be a nothing-burger and the popular i5 line won't even be a hybrid processor.
 

The Mass Shooter Ron Soye

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AMD could create 16-core APUs for laptops, or make some slight tweaks to 16-core Zen 4 desktop CPUs and drop those into laptops. That could help explain why the Zen 4 desktop CPUs are gaining integrated graphics.

If they don't do something like this, Intel will crush AMD in laptops with 14-core (6 big, 8 small) Alder Lake.
 

Simple Moving Average

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AMD could create 16-core APUs for laptops, or make some slight tweaks to 16-core Zen 4 desktop CPUs and drop those into laptops. That could help explain why the Zen 4 desktop CPUs are gaining integrated graphics.

If they don't do something like this, Intel will crush AMD in laptops with 14-core (6 big, 8 small) Alder Lake.

I take it you haven't kept up with AMD's 3D V-Cache stacking tech innovations?


Imagine what something like this can do in cache-heavy datacenter workloads, such as, I dunno, AI and machine learning? I've heard it's getting quite popular but I could be misinformed.
 

The Mass Shooter Ron Soye

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I take it you haven't kept up with AMD's 3D V-Cache stacking tech innovations?


Imagine what something like this can do in cache-heavy datacenter workloads, such as, I dunno, AI and machine learning? I've heard it's getting quite popular but I could be misinformed.
I'm talking about laptops, not desktops.

Without Raphael-H, AMD would have 8 cores in laptops with Rembrandt in 2022, and 8 cores in laptops with Phoenix in 2023. There is a rumor of 8+4 in Strix Point in 2024. While Intel is moving to 6+8 with Alder Lake in 2022, and perhaps 6+16 with Raptor Lake in 2023.

Nobody expects V-Cache to be added to any of the laptop APUs. V-Cache is currently designed to be stacked and bonded onto the desktop Zen 3 chiplets, not the monolithic dies used in laptops.

If AMD just decided to drop a 16-core chiplet-based CPU from the desktop lineup into laptops, leading to this Raphael-H rumor, then maybe it can also get V-Cache. But there will be no V-Cache in Rembrandt next year.
 

Michael Wade

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Alright. Quick question. What is the best possible laptop for graphics and emulation? Like which is ULTIMATE one I guess. (Unless some are somehow better at emulation then graphics)
 

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Alright. Quick question. What is the best possible laptop for graphics and emulation? Like which is ULTIMATE one I guess. (Unless some are somehow better at emulation then graphics)
It would be the one with the most stuff meaning that it is the most expensive, heaviest and dumbest looking one with an RTX3080 mobile.

You have to use a price point, like $500, $750, $1000, $1250 and so on. Then you need to specify what graphics and emulation means to you in this context.
 

Michael Wade

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It would be the one with the most stuff meaning that it is the most expensive, heaviest and dumbest looking one with an RTX3080 mobile.

You have to use a price point, like $500, $750, $1000, $1250 and so on. Then you need to specify what graphics and emulation means to you in this context.
Alright. I want something portable but powerful. Something that doesn't have trouble emulating old ass roms.
 

Smaug's Smokey Hole

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Alright. I want something portable but powerful. Something that doesn't have trouble emulating old ass roms.
Oh. PS1 and down can be run on absolutely anything unless you go nuts with the plugins. Dolphin(Gamecube, Wii) can be run on an iGPU if using the forked version(Ishiiruka), but a discrete GPU(Nvidia, AMD) would be preferred and it opens up PS2 emulation as well. If you get something with an Nvidia GTX 1650 or above then Wii-U and Switch is suddenly on the table.

You should also check out budget builds, he tests to see how far you can go with cheap and old hardware. That's where I learned about Ishiiruka.
 

Michael Wade

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Oh. PS1 and down can be run on absolutely anything unless you go nuts with the plugins. Dolphin(Gamecube, Wii) can be run on an iGPU if using the forked version(Ishiiruka), but a discrete GPU(Nvidia, AMD) would be preferred and it opens up PS2 emulation as well. If you get something with an Nvidia GTX 1650 or above then Wii-U and Switch is suddenly on the table.

You should also check out budget builds, he tests to see how far you can go with cheap and old hardware. That's where I learned about Ishiiruka.
Interesting. What's the deal with xbox? Also how well would they interact with say the MSI stealth?
 

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Alright. Quick question. What is the best possible laptop for graphics and emulation? Like which is ULTIMATE one I guess. (Unless some are somehow better at emulation then graphics)
Best laptop graphics is the "NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Laptop GPU" (in 8 or 16 GB variants)
The best allocate at least 150 W to GPU: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Compr...U-along-with-corresponding-TGPs.517977.0.html

CPU single-thread is the primary driver of emulation performance. For laptops, the best CPU is Intel Core i7-11800H or i9-11980HK.
 

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Interesting. What's the deal with xbox? Also how well would they interact with say the MSI stealth?
The Xbox is cursed and should be ignored for now. MSI Stealth is just a brand, under the hood it is the same stuff in it as in every other laptop, just look at specs and compare it to other brands. Youtube the laptop you're interested in (name, model) and you're guaranteed to see someone handling it and giving their impression.
 

Simple Moving Average

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I'm talking about laptops, not desktops.

Without Raphael-H, AMD would have 8 cores in laptops with Rembrandt in 2022, and 8 cores in laptops with Phoenix in 2023. There is a rumor of 8+4 in Strix Point in 2024. While Intel is moving to 6+8 with Alder Lake in 2022, and perhaps 6+16 with Raptor Lake in 2023.

Nobody expects V-Cache to be added to any of the laptop APUs. V-Cache is currently designed to be stacked and bonded onto the desktop Zen 3 chiplets, not the monolithic dies used in laptops.

If AMD just decided to drop a 16-core chiplet-based CPU from the desktop lineup into laptops, leading to this Raphael-H rumor, then maybe it can also get V-Cache. But there will be no V-Cache in Rembrandt next year.
I should have paid more attention, my apologies. I look at this type of stuff as an investor first and as someone who wanted to get into VLSI professionally at the end of the 90s/start of the 00s.

From the laptop perspective you are probably correct. It's just that consumer tech generally isn't where you find the most recent innovations, at least in this space.

However, V-Cache carrying samples have been on tapeout for quite a while. Introducing this tech is gonna pay handsome dividends for AMD and its shareholders. I am sure of it. It's one of our biggest long-term positions currently.
 

The Mass Shooter Ron Soye

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Alright. Quick question. What is the best possible laptop for graphics and emulation? Like which is ULTIMATE one I guess. (Unless some are somehow better at emulation then graphics)
The ETA PRIME YouTube channel tests a bunch of emulators on almost everything.

When it comes to things that won't necessarily run at 100% on new Intel and AMD laptop chips, I think you're looking at PS3 and Nintendo Switch, which aren't exactly that old. I think Xbox also has problems.

I should have paid more attention, my apologies. I look at this type of stuff as an investor first and as someone who wanted to get into VLSI professionally at the end of the 90s/start of the 00s.

From the laptop perspective you are probably correct. It's just that consumer tech generally isn't where you find the most recent innovations, at least in this space.

However, V-Cache carrying samples have been on tapeout for quite a while. Introducing this tech is gonna pay handsome dividends for AMD and its shareholders. I am sure of it. It's one of our biggest long-term positions currently.
It's known that Zen 3 desktop chips have the TSV connection points needed to attach the 3D VCache. However, AMD was supposedly working on Zen 2 prototypes with VCache. It just wasn't ready yet because of low yields.

The 15% average gain from tripling L3 cache doesn't seem that impressive to me, but I think that is a conservative estimate based on no optimization by game developers. They did claim +25% in Monster Hunter World. I would also like to see them add a gigabyte-sized L4 cache in the future.
 

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Alright. I want something portable but powerful. Something that doesn't have trouble emulating old ass roms.
Like others have said, emulating older systems is piss easy these days even on potato hardware. My decade old thinkpad runs everything up to gamecube with ishiiruka. PS2 is more demanding and from what I can tell Xbox emulation is still pretty bad.

If you want to emulate older games just get a compact used business laptop (Lenovo, Dell, HP etc.). If you want to shell out a bit more go for a model with a recent Ryzen chip. I've found the Vega graphics to be pretty good, can even handle recent-ish PC games fairly well.
 

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Like others have said, emulating older systems is piss easy these days even on potato hardware. My decade old thinkpad runs everything up to gamecube with ishiiruka. PS2 is more demanding and from what I can tell Xbox emulation is still pretty bad.

If you want to emulate older games just get a compact used business laptop (Lenovo, Dell, HP etc.). If you want to shell out a bit more go for a model with a recent Ryzen chip. I've found the Vega graphics to be pretty good, can even handle recent-ish PC games fairly well.
The PS2 is more demanding mostly due to the difficulties running Emotion Engine code. Even my 9700k struggles with some PS2 games.

Xbox emulation is just a total disaster thanks to late development. It really wasnt usable until just a few years ago. Strange considering it was X86 and should have been far easier to implement instruction code support, hell it was running windows CE FFS.
 

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Xbox emulation is just a total disaster thanks to late development. It really wasnt usable until just a few years ago. Strange considering it was X86 and should have been far easier to implement instruction code support, hell it was running windows CE FFS.
This has always eluded me as well. It's extremely confusing that a console that was effectively a PC didn't get looked into as much until recent years.
 

The Mass Shooter Ron Soye

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Alright. I want something portable but powerful. Something that doesn't have trouble emulating old ass roms.

Here's a garbage dual-core i3-1115G4 with 4 GB of RAM soldered and no discrete GPU. But it's enough to emulate PS2, PSP, GameCube, 3DS, and Wii, mostly at full speed.


Bump that to something like a Ryzen 5 5600H and GTX 1650, and you could do WiiU and PS3.
 

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I just have to vent a bit, but this 3070 FE has to be the single most unreliable card I've ever owned. I don't know if it's the drivers or what but I blue screened yesterday and it's because of nvlddmkm.sys . I just finished doing a 'clean install' and got another BSOD over ntoskrnl.exe . It seems to be working now but I'm paranoid every time something doesn't load right away that it's going to shit itself.

The worst part is that this is a replacement for one I already RMA'd because it had weird as fuck graphical issues.
 

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I just have to vent a bit, but this 3070 FE has to be the single most unreliable card I've ever owned. I don't know if it's the drivers or what but I blue screened yesterday and it's because of nvlddmkm.sys . I just finished doing a 'clean install' and got another BSOD over ntoskrnl.exe . It seems to be working now but I'm paranoid every time something doesn't load right away that it's going to shit itself.

The worst part is that this is a replacement for one I already RMA'd because it had weird as fuck graphical issues.
Have you tried the studio drivers?

Having been an Nvidia user for many years I'm kinda used to that fuckery happening once in a while(once in a while since the late 90's so we're talking a longer time scale). Rolling back driver versions or waiting it out have been my traditional fix, but now there's studio drivers that prioritize stability. They're not that much slower and if it fixes your problems then you can either keep running them or try new game drivers in the future and see if they're any better. Wipe the driver installation and check them out.

And run memtest, something could be going on with the ram. Schedule a short vacation because it will take a while, hopefully it will be finished before your warranty runs out.
 

Dr. Geronimo

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Have you tried the studio drivers?

Having been an Nvidia user for many years I'm kinda used to that fuckery happening once in a while(once in a while since the late 90's so we're talking a longer time scale). Rolling back driver versions or waiting it out have been my traditional fix, but now there's studio drivers that prioritize stability. They're not that much slower and if it fixes your problems then you can either keep running them or try new game drivers in the future and see if they're any better. Wipe the driver installation and check them out.

And run memtest, something could be going on with the ram. Schedule a short vacation because it will take a while, hopefully it will be finished before your warranty runs out.
I ran memtest and it came back fine. I recently did add another 16gb of ram to my setup so glad that wasn't the issue. Since doing a clean install of my video drivers I seem to be okay, so hopefully it was just a driver issue. I'd hate to RMA again (wonder how long until nvidia tells me to go fuck myself) and buying another GPU in this market is out of the question. Hell at this point this might be the last computer I ever build.

Drives me crazy though that upgrading, especially to a founder's edition, causes me so much grief. My 670 and 1070 were beasts and I never had issue with them.