GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[Just Some Other Guy]

Oh whoops. Should have specified. Mostly AA shit like Yakuza, Elite: Dangerous and the like. Monhun World might be the only recent AAA game I bought.

1080p, dont forsee upgrading to 1440p mainly because I lack the desk space for any bigger.

If you want to do just 1080p/60fps, a 6600 should suffice. I think Newegg has an MSI one for like $260 after a small rebate.

 

[Overly Serious]

Oh whoops. Should have specified. Mostly AA shit like Yakuza, Elite: Dangerous and the like. Monhun World might be the only recent AAA game I bought.

1080p, dont forsee upgrading to 1440p mainly because I lack the desk space for any bigger.

6600XT/6650XT would be fine for that anyway, imo. The new scaling technology AMD has is excellent and you don't have to play everything on maxed out settings anyway.

6700 / 6800 are for the competitive players and the "I must crank every setting to maximum even if I can't tell the difference" players.

And 6900 are for the "I have lots of money and a stupid big monitor" players.

 

[WULULULULU]

I've decided to just wait for another 2 years since AMD will be releasing the 7000 series soon. And since the 5800X3D has been a massive success with VRAM, the new CPUs, will (hopefully) introduce the new gimmicks the 5800X3D implemented for widespread use. Might as well stick to the 6800XT since that can last without upgrades hopefully for years.

 

[TheBigZee]

If it does happen with any frequency, we will hear a lot of whining about it.

nVidia is essentially tripping a soft fuse. Hope they get hit with a class action for understating the power requirements of their cards. The engineering team would have known about this, and I'm sure the marketing team picked the wattage.

Edit: My "professional" opinion (EECE undergrad) is that the gpu needs a filter on its input to prevent tripping the OCP on the PSU. Best response from the PSU companies is to just compile the data a lawyer can use to show nVidia lied to consumers. They could buy an nVidia card and start the class action themselves.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

I've decided to just wait for another 2 years since AMD will be releasing the 7000 series soon. And since the 5800X3D has been a massive success with VRAM, the new CPUs, will (hopefully) introduce the new gimmicks the 5800X3D implemented for widespread use. Might as well stick to the 6800XT since that can last without upgrades hopefully for years.

Ryzen 7000 (aka Zen 4 aka Raphael) will launch without V-Cache, but V-Cache models might come out before the end of the year. Hopefully they put V-Cache on more than just the 8-core model, and fix the voltage and overclocking problem.

 

[TheBigZee]

fix the voltage and overclocking problem.

We'll have a pretty good idea if there is a separate voltage setting for the cache when zen4 launches. I'm doubtful it will happen because the way the cache is bonded doesn't leave a lot of room for voltage controls. Amd turbo boost already does a really, really good job at overclocking to the extent the silicon lottery allows at stock voltages.

 

[WULULULULU]

Ryzen 7000 (aka Zen 4 aka Raphael) will launch without V-Cache, but V-Cache models might come out before the end of the year. Hopefully they put V-Cache on more than just the 8-core model, and fix the voltage and overclocking problem.

Hm, I usually expect CPU upgrades to come around like 1-2 years since mass production and revisions from first adopters. This is news to me.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Hm, I usually expect CPU upgrades to come around like 1-2 years since mass production and revisions from first adopters. This is news to me.

Creating the 5800X3D was a matter of getting the chiplet and bonding process to work correctly, which is TSMC's job. It was discovered that Zen 2 desktop CPUs actually have the tiny TSV connectors needed to attach a cache chiplet, but the technology wasn't ready until Zen 3 so they were never used.

Like the 5800X3D, Zen 4 with V-Cache will be the same as the other Zen 4 CPUs except the addition of the cache chiplet, structural silicon, slight change to the height to make it fit in the package, and any voltage and clock speed adjustments they need to do.

It's more of a refresh of Zen 4 than a completely new product. Getting it out early could be the key to ensuring better gaming performance than Raptor Lake before Intel launches Meteor Lake. Intel is trying for a more aggressive cadence than AMD has usually used. You might remember that Rocket Lake and Alder Lake both launched in 2021, and Raptor Lake might be launching only 11 months or so after Alder Lake.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

I saw an article saying that AMD needs to make a 5600X3D and it's been rolling around in my brain for a while. It's a strange proposition. It would definitely be a faster 5600X but it would also be more expensive, probably creeping up to the same price as the regular 5800X. I assume the X3D would be better for games than a 5800 but if they cost the same it would look weird.
Something like a 5600X3D would need some kind of gamer branding in my opinion, otherwise the 5800X with more cores and a higher model number would look like the better buy at a glance.

 

[A Repopulated Embassy]

I saw an article saying that AMD needs to make a 5600X3D and it's been rolling around in my brain for a while. It's a strange proposition. It would definitely be a faster 5600X but it would also be more expensive, probably creeping up to the same price as the regular 5800X. I assume the X3D would be better for games than a 5800 but if they cost the same it would look weird.
Something like a 5600X3D would need some kind of gamer branding in my opinion, otherwise the 5800X with more cores and a higher model number would look like the better buy at a glance.

Why are we still talking about new chips for the AM4 socket? With AMD's new generation of CPUs set on AM5 socket, surely they would not potentially hamper the sales of Zen 4 by introducing chips for the AM4 socket, unless they believe that the new chips would not sell well because consumers would balk at the cost of buying new motherboard and RAM before they can use the new chips.

I don't think that the 3D cache technology would bring much benefit right now. However, between software improvements that take advantage of the L3 cache expansion, and hardware improvements due to engineering, Zen 4 with 3D cache would be more powerful than 5800X3D (and potentially 5600X3D).

Kind of like how the RTX 20 series' ray-tracing capabilities were mediocre, which was then improved massively with the RTX 30 series.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

Why are we still talking about new chips for the AM4 socket? With AMD's new generation of CPUs set on AM5 socket, surely they would not potentially hamper the sales of Zen 4 by introducing chips for the AM4 socket, unless they believe that the new chips would not sell well because consumers would balk at the cost of buying new motherboard and RAM before they can use the new chips.

I don't think that the 3D cache technology would bring much benefit right now. However, between software improvements that take advantage of the L3 cache expansion, and hardware improvements due to engineering, Zen 4 with 3D cache would be more powerful than 5800X3D (and potentially 5600X3D).

Kind of like how the RTX 20 series' ray-tracing capabilities were mediocre, which was then improved massively with the RTX 30 series.

Of course, but generations exists along each other for a while. I'm not suggesting a 5600X3D, a pundit of some sorts did and it got me thinking. Like @The Mass Shooter Ron Soye said, even since Zen 2 the potential for 3D cache was there. Jumping to a new node/process(as far as I know) and socket for Zen 4 doesn't mean that they will immediately stop production of 5000 series, the 5000's is still an upgrade path for older Ryzen users.

It was meant as a topic of general discussion because, like you say, the idea seemed odd at this point in time. What function would a 5600X3D fill at this point? In my opinion it would be gaming, but it won't be overclockable so the RGB enthusiast market would probably shrink away. It would probably priced around the 5800X and who knows how it would do at productivity tasks that utilizes all cores compared to the former. But like I said, it was just an article that said AMD should do it and to reiterate: I could not figure out why they should.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Of course, but generations exists along each other for a while. I'm not suggesting a 5600X3D, a pundit of some sorts did and it got me thinking. Like @The Mass Shooter Ron Soye said, even since Zen 2 the potential for 3D cache was there. Jumping to a new node/process(as far as I know) and socket for Zen 4 doesn't mean that they will immediately stop production of 5000 series, the 5000's is still an upgrade path for older Ryzen users.

It was meant as a topic of general discussion because, like you say, the idea seemed odd at this point in time. What function would a 5600X3D fill at this point? In my opinion it would be gaming, but it won't be overclockable so the RGB enthusiast market would probably shrink away. It would probably priced around the 5800X and who knows how it would do at productivity tasks that utilizes all cores compared to the former. But like I said, it was just an article that said AMD should do it and to reiterate: I could not figure out why they should.

People are reading into comments made during a recent AMD press blitz, and assuming AMD will put something new on AM4. Keep in mind they could give some niche low-end CPU model to OEMs and that would count.

5600X3D doesn't make much sense but it is worth wondering if there could be a 7600X3D or 7900X3D. Can they put a broken chiplet on? How about only one cache chiplet instead of two on a 7900X3D or 7950X3D?

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

People are reading into comments made during a recent AMD press blitz, and assuming AMD will put something new on AM4. Keep in mind they could give some niche low-end CPU model to OEMs and that would count.

5600X3D doesn't make much sense but it is worth wondering if there could be a 7600X3D or 7900X3D. Can they put a broken chiplet on? How about only one cache chiplet instead of two on a 7900X3D or 7950X3D?

Gut feeling is that they won't put out anything new on AM4, where would a new product fit in? The only possibility would be XT variants but that didn't go down so well last time.

Until they can reliably put v-cache on a lot of their lineup it feels like they would only splinter their market and create confusion if they only put it on two products in the consumer segment.
In the nearish future I wonder if they will run with x600/700/800 non-X, X and X3D CPUs at the same time? It could get weird if they didn't. They push X towards enthusiasts that likes overclocking and stuff like that but X3D is locked down so they can't really get rid of the X-series, the RGBtards would howl like monkeys. They can't put the cache on the non-X CPUs, lock it down and make it more expensive than the X series, that would be incredibly stupid. So until v-cache becomes a standard feature I wonder how they will handle it from a marketing perspective.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Gut feeling is that they won't put out anything new on AM4, where would a new product fit in? The only possibility would be XT variants but that didn't go down so well last time.

Until they can reliably put v-cache on a lot of their lineup it feels like they would only splinter their market and create confusion if they only put it on two products in the consumer segment.
In the nearish future I wonder if they will run with x600/700/800 non-X, X and X3D CPUs at the same time? It could get weird if they didn't. They push X towards enthusiasts that likes overclocking and stuff like that but X3D is locked down so they can't really get rid of the X-series, the RGBtards would howl like monkeys. They can't put the cache on the non-X CPUs, lock it down and make it more expensive than the X series, that would be incredibly stupid. So until v-cache becomes a standard feature I wonder how they will handle it from a marketing perspective.

AM4 could remain a budget option as a hedge against DDR5 pricing. But AMD already launched a wave of budget CPUs for AM4 including the 5500, 4600G, 4500, and 4100. I also hear that B650 (AM5) will be cheap, and there will be an A620. We have no idea what budget CPUs will come to AM5 but they obviously have options, such as a Rembrandt 6700G, 6600G with the gimped 660M graphics, or one of their monolithic quad-core dies.

X3D will not necessarily remain locked down forever. It's apparently not a heat issue, and it's possible that future versions would work at higher voltages. Clock speeds will be ramping up either way since the 7000 series will lean heavily on that, going to at least 5.5 GHz all-core.

The segmentation will be interesting. Already you can find people freaking out about the 5800X3D and 5900X being around the same price (5950X not far off either), and that's with just one X3D part in the lineup. But if they do it just right, people will lap it up.

 

[StopSneeding]

Still very happy with Alder Lake, it's a great platform. I was never an MSI fan, but their Z690 boards are exceptional. Going forward I will keep them in mind and potentially buy MSI over ASUS. There are issues with Alder Lake and uneven contact for CPU coolers that are flat and not concave. There are multiple ways to address it. Originally it was adding 1 mm washers under the ILM socket in order to decrease tension exerted on the heat spreader. Then Thermalright released a custom retention bracket which replaces the usual locking mechanism. It allows the CPU to be flatter as equal pressure is exerted which prevents warping. After installing it I got a 7-10 C drop in temperatures due to a better mount with my EK Supremacy EVO block. The bracket was only $5 shipped and it is an excellent value. The install is simple as long as you use something to keep the backplate in place. In my case my waterblock backplate kept it on the board. I will have to play with my settings, but a few people have reported that the bracket has allowed them to lower Vcore due to lower temperatures. At 5.2ghz all core @ 1.32 V I am staying at 55-60C in OCCT stresstest.

I want to delid the processor eventually, but right now it is just not cost effective. RockItCool is the only game in town and after getting liquid metal, something to cover the caps on the front, and the tool it comes close to $100 and that is not even including the custom IHS. Delidding used to be a $30-50 tool and there were many manufacturers. I really wish someone else would step up. The same is true concerning direct die solutions, as only SuperCool has something available. If I had a 12700k it might be more appealing, but I can't justify delidding or going direct die with the 12600k that I have right now. My voltages and temps are fine, but I just like to mess around as a hobby. I kind of wish I went for the 12700k just for the better IMC for RAM overclocking, but the 12600k fits all of my needs and will serve me well going forward.

I'm curious what AMD will do with their die configuration and heatspreader for AM5 CPUs

 

[Zinc1257]

just curious, what is the bare minimum in the CPU department these days? it'd be used only for basic shit for web browsing and office. i'm asking this because my potato-tier i3-10110u (2c/4t kek) absolutely flies on Linux and even Windows.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

just curious, what is the bare minimum in the CPU department these days? it'd be used only for basic shit for web browsing and office. i'm asking this because my potato-tier i3-10110u (2c/4t kek) absolutely flies on Linux and even Windows.

An Atom chip about 40-50% as fast as that, like an N4020, is probably fine. That is old Gemini Lake Refresh stock that they are getting rid of right now. Jasper Lake and Alder Lake-N will perform better. Your i3-10110U will be completely overtaken by Atom with no big cores soon.

Raspberry Pi 4 is below that and is a little too slow for comfort. It sucks at anything video and GPU related.

If you're considering picking up an old office PC, you might want to consider the video decode/encode acceleration. For example, Broadwell doesn't do H.265, Skylake doesn't do VP9, and only the newer stuff is getting AV1. You don't always need acceleration, but there are probably systems that are too slow to decode 1080p H.265, much less 4K.

 

[Judge Dredd]

I saw an article saying that AMD needs to make a 5600X3D and it's been rolling around in my brain for a while. It's a strange proposition. It would definitely be a faster 5600X but it would also be more expensive, probably creeping up to the same price as the regular 5800X. I assume the X3D would be better for games than a 5800 but if they cost the same it would look weird.
Something like a 5600X3D would need some kind of gamer branding in my opinion, otherwise the 5800X with more cores and a higher model number would look like the better buy at a glance.

I'd go the other way. They should make a 5400 or even a 5100 with vchache. (I don't know if they're real tiers, just basing them on intel naming scheme.)

There are two reasons.

1. AMD doesn't really have a competitive budget option to compete with 12100 and 12400. Sort of. I know 5600 and 5600g works out cheaper but you know what I mean.
2. Chache mainly helps for gaming, and high end cpus are more for productivity work is my understanding.

just curious, what is the bare minimum in the CPU department these days? it'd be used only for basic shit for web browsing and office. i'm asking this because my potato-tier i3-10110u (2c/4t kek) absolutely flies on Linux and even Windows.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but I still use a 4690k. It's 8 years old and still works great for web browsing, word processing, etc. The only reason I'm upgrading is that I'm long overdue an upgrade, and because it's starting to chug on the latest releases.

If you're talking anything new, outside of niche products like Raspberry Pi, you'd have to try to find something that sucks. I've not used a i3-12100, but it should destroy anything you throw at it.

 

[WULULULULU]

God, I can only hope V-cache 7000 series AMD CPUs can release before the end of the fucking world as we know it. Let me enjoy the last days of civilization instead of weeping all day.

 

[serious n00b]

Having a Mandela effect moment right now. I always thought that the K versions of Intel CPUs couldn't be properly overclocked, but apparently they can be. I'm feeling really confused.