Trainwreck Gwen Hartley & The Hartley Hooligans - Attention Seeking Horrorshow Mom of Two Dead Gremlins & Finally Free Human Son

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Non-Expert!

Check your immunoprivelege.
kiwifarms.net
Claire and Lola were never people or children. They were nothing. In this case there was just misery and feces everywhere.
I have to respectfullly disagree with you here.

Claire and Lola were born to human parents and had human DNA. What else could they have been?

It has been said a lot here, that the girls were barely human or sub-human.

It brings us to the question of what makes a person human.

When we start excluding people from being categorically human, based on arbitrary criteria (such as the ability to be self-aware, or lacking facial deformities) we risk tumbling down a slippery slope, and grant ourselves license to literally de-humanize others.

Thank you for acknowledging my point of view.
 

Casta Spersions

Who's the fairest of them all?
kiwifarms.net
I must say I've been a bit perplexed by the vitriol on this thread... It was mostly normal until Lola died and then there was like ten diatribes on each page about how disgusting the girls were and spazzing about Gwen. Honestly as far as lolcows go Gwen is far from the worst, imo. This thread was mostly interesting for how horrific the girls were and Gwen just added that extra ridiculous cow element. Nothing to get really angry about even talking into the account that Lola could have grown much bigger, etc. If you find the hooligans so revolting why get so offended by their mother's behaviour?
 

Thumb Butler

Karma is a bitch
kiwifarms.net
When we start excluding people from being categorically human, based on arbitrary criteria (such as the ability to be self-aware, or lacking facial deformities) we risk tumbling down a slippery slope, and grant ourselves license to literally de-humanize others.
We have to draw the line somewhere, and the shit gremlins were in no way human beings with any kind of human thoughts, emotions or dignity.
 

Microlab

Chihuahuas are a figment of your imagination
kiwifarms.net
arbitrary criteria (such as the ability to be self-aware,
You consider self-awareness an "arbitrary criteria"? Just going to point out, if self-awareness isn't important to determining something's personhood, then anything is a person. Cockroaches can feel pain, but don't have self-awareness... so are they people, then?
Self-awareness isn't just an important boundary for human beings to cross, but for all animals. The ability to percieve itself in context is what differentiates creatures who have biological responses to pain from creatures who can emotionally experience suffering.

There definitely is a point of denying humanism where it becomes a slippery slope; but self-awareness definitely isn't that. It is, most likely, based on biological ability. "Can a blind person really be considered human, when they're missing such a vital sense?" is a much more exclusionarily charged discussion than "Were these near-literally brainless little humans, whos most promising abilities were that they could even move their own limbs, no matter how disorderedly, really people?"

The Hooligans absolutely weren't people. They were human, but they weren't people.
 

homewayhalf

kiwifarms.net
I think the thing that’s irritating is that some of you guys are dunking on literal dead profoundly disabled beings who aren’t aware and can’t respond. Like... congrats on finding recycled ways to talk about how ugly the kids were. It’s boring. Not to mention all the posts about how you showed your friend/boyfriend/doctor/grandma photos of the hooligans and they were horrified. No one cares.

We also have no idea whether they experienced pain so those of you arguing over their personhood need to chill.
 

MirnaMinkoff

Mama, nobody sends you a turd and expects to live.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I think the thing that’s irritating is that some of you guys are dunking on literal dead profoundly disabled beings who aren’t aware and can’t respond. Like... congrats on finding recycled ways to talk about how ugly the kids were. It’s boring. Not to mention all the posts about how you showed your friend/boyfriend/doctor/grandma photos of the hooligans and they were horrified. No one cares.

We also have no idea whether they experienced pain so those of you arguing over their personhood need to chill.
Idk a reasoned discussion about self-awareness and if a certain level is what defines being human (or person) is far better than pages of GROSS!!!!! and long a-loggy posts about why yet another person finds disgusting about the Hooligans.

One the one hand you had Gwen insisting the Hooligans were near perfect examples of humanity and their existence spread joy to everyone who encountered them, almost superhuman or supernatural beings. Then you have many in this thread who wonder if they actually meet the criteria for personhood.

(Human is probably the wrong term, their DNA makes them a homosap but personhood is more nuanced. Many religious types would view them as advanced spiritual beings due to their suffering and enforced innocence. Catholics love the extreme suffering in grace angle and Mormons believe since they are forever innocent they have a guaranteed ticket straight to the celestial kingdom.
 

Moonpie

Ride the Lightening
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Most every one of the posters on here have commented about how disgusting and repulsive they were and I believe most all of us participated.
Now just because they are dead seems like some are trying to be self righteous?
A bit hypocritical.
We haven't posted anything off the beaten path.
No need to change your tune just because they're dead in order to save face.
Scroll on. Or avoid the thread altogether if you really don't like it.
 

Non-Expert!

Check your immunoprivelege.
kiwifarms.net
Idk a reasoned discussion about self-awareness and if a certain level is what defines being human (or person) is far better than pages of GROSS!!!!! and long a-loggy posts about why yet another person finds disgusting about the Hooligans.

...

(Human is probably the wrong term, their DNA makes them a homosap but personhood is more nuanced. Many religious types would view them as advanced spiritual beings due to their suffering and enforced innocence. Catholics love the extreme suffering in grace angle and Mormons believe since they are forever innocent they have a guaranteed ticket straight to the celestial kingdom.
There you go ... you nailed it!

The issue at hand is their personhood, not their species.

However by law they were considered people, at least in the states.

But I admit this is a complex question, as to what constitutes personhood, that is by no means settled.
 

homewayhalf

kiwifarms.net
Most every one of the posters on here have commented about how disgusting and repulsive they were and I believe most all of us participated.
Now just because they are dead seems like some are trying to be self righteous?
A bit hypocritical.
We haven't posted anything off the beaten path.
No need to change your tune just because they're dead in order to save face.
Scroll on. Or avoid the thread altogether if you really don't like it.
You completely missed my point. I don’t care if people call the hooligans ugly or whatever, it’s that it’s boring and contributes nothing and most of the posts are MOTI spergs. Carry on talking about how deformed they were if you want, just realize it’s not as clever or amusing as you think it is and bumping a thread just to say “damn they’re hideous” is irritating.
 

JaneThough

We are preexisting conditions
kiwifarms.net
Most every one of the posters on here have commented about how disgusting and repulsive they were and I believe most all of us participated.
Now just because they are dead seems like some are trying to be self righteous?
A bit hypocritical.
We haven't posted anything off the beaten path.
No need to change your tune just because they're dead in order to save face.
Scroll on. Or avoid the thread altogether if you really don't like it.
Being able to call profoundly disabled dead kids gross without others disagreeing seems like a strange hill to want to die on.
 

simulated goat

pleasant goat beauty
kiwifarms.net
Humanity, or rather the traits we categorize under the term, is a hard one to parse. Awareness of the world and the fact of being in it is a huge factor. We have no real idea of what the goblins could actually expeience, although 'pain' and a basic sense of safety due to being warm and cuddled were probably it. They are considered 'human' on DNA alone although many animals show more awareness and emotion than those two ever did. Like that old dog in so many of those pics. Poor thing felt concern for those creatures, I think, sitting near them and licking their faces- setting off disgusting rooting reflexes, but that only underpins the fact the dog was arguably more 'human' than they, showing affection and perhaps even empathy. Gwen said that Lola missed Claire, but I doubt Lola noticed too much, whereas i've seen chickens grieve for the disappearance of close friends they spent their time with. Lola had human DNA but was not really human except on a technicality and even a chicken is arguably more self aware and 'human' than she would ever be. Whatever, they are released now. Any talk about them is just so much hot air.

I'm just checking in to see what happens to Gwen, although she could impress me by just wandering off into the sunset at this point.
 

Non-Expert!

Check your immunoprivelege.
kiwifarms.net
Humanity, or rather the traits we categorize under the term, is a hard one to parse. Awareness of the world and the fact of being in it is a huge factor. We have no real idea of what the goblins could actually expeience, although 'pain' and a basic sense of safety due to being warm and cuddled were probably it. They are considered 'human' on DNA alone although many animals show more awareness and emotion than those two ever did.


Like that old dog in so many of those pics. Poor thing felt concern for those creatures, I think, sitting near them and licking their faces- setting off disgusting rooting reflexes, but that only underpins the fact the dog was arguably more 'human' than they, showing affection and perhaps even empathy. Gwen said that Lola missed Claire, but I doubt Lola noticed too much, whereas i've seen chickens grieve for the disappearance of close friends they spent their time with.


Lola had human DNA but was not really human except on a technicality and even a chicken is arguably more self aware and 'human' than she would ever be. Whatever, they are released now. Any talk about them is just so much hot air.

I'm just checking in to see what happens to Gwen, although she could impress me by just wandering off into the sunset at this point.
I am morbidly curious too. Chances are we won't be hearing from her again.


I think that the key concept is "self-awareness" and not just awareness. And I see your point about animals but being that we can't read their minds, it is a tough comparison. Reacting to environmental stressors is not what distinguishes people from animals, clearly not.

That makes me sad about chickens. I was unaware that they grieved. But it would be a fallacy in reasoning to say feeling emotions is human therefore every living thing who feels emotions is human.

I also doubt their personhood because by comparison, the tragedy of Alzheimer's disease is that people's brains degenerate. They lose the neuronal connections that make them, them and their experiences, their own. So they slowly lose their personhood.

There is a lot about their case that I find interesting. And I love seeing how other people conceive of these issues. But yeah why are we mocking two deceased profoundly disabled children?
 
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Peaches Demure

Liberate me ex inferis!
kiwifarms.net

I didn't know Lola was used as a prop for music videos already in 1989. Look at the thing that shows up at 0:26. Looks exactly like Lola in one of her costumes.
 

Mason Verger

was she a great big healthy at any size person?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I think the thing that’s irritating is that some of you guys are dunking on literal dead profoundly disabled beings who aren’t aware and can’t respond. Like... congrats on finding recycled ways to talk about how ugly the kids were. It’s boring. Not to mention all the posts about how you showed your friend/boyfriend/doctor/grandma photos of the hooligans and they were horrified. No one cares.

We also have no idea whether they experienced pain so those of you arguing over their personhood need to chill.
You bring up a really good point.

I bet I could've dunked lola, like if you lowered to hoop to maybe 8’ and I had my LeBrons on. I’ve seen Scott palm her with one hand so it’s really just about getting the up’s.
 

Azafran90

Sexiest cenobite "alive"
kiwifarms.net
Idk a reasoned discussion about self-awareness and if a certain level is what defines being human (or person) is far better than pages of GROSS!!!!! and long a-loggy posts about why yet another person finds disgusting about the Hooligans.

One the one hand you had Gwen insisting the Hooligans were near perfect examples of humanity and their existence spread joy to everyone who encountered them, almost superhuman or supernatural beings. Then you have many in this thread who wonder if they actually meet the criteria for personhood.

(Human is probably the wrong term, their DNA makes them a homosap but personhood is more nuanced. Many religious types would view them as advanced spiritual beings due to their suffering and enforced innocence. Catholics love the extreme suffering in grace angle and Mormons believe since they are forever innocent they have a guaranteed ticket straight to the celestial kingdom.
Modern catholicism would find them innocent and worthy of heaven whether they were baphtized or not, victorian catholics would run towards them screaming that they need to be baphtized catholic ASAP and medieval catholics would be burning some witches.

I am very curious of how other religions would view their case, tho.
 

Free the Pedos

What the fuck's a washing machine doing in a pub?
kiwifarms.net
Catholics love the extreme suffering in grace angle and Mormons believe since they are forever innocent they have a guaranteed ticket straight to the celestial kingdom.
I think there needs to be a line drawn to determine whether a creature, a homo sapien, can be said to be undergoing extreme suffering. If they totally lack self-awareness, can they be said to be suffering? Was Jahi McMath suffering when she lay braindead, being supported by machines? Surely the simple fact of being in a technically-alive body doesn't make one a candidate for extreme suffering in grace. I would say the Hartley girls weren't either, as they had no self-awareness or thoughts.
 
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