Hispanic History and Traditions -


Cream Pangolin
Yea last I heard about them they where in the lowest divisions of the La Liga. Moving on from that what is the influence of Arabic culture in the province Cádiz considering it so close to morocco I assume it must have been one of the primary places Islamic culture seeped into the Iberian peninsula.
Hahahahaha nooooooo. Not at all actually. Granada was the islamic beachhead. Cadiz was fairly vehemently christian. Even during its time under islamic rule most of the population refused to convert and the guerrillas dominated most of the mountainrange so be careful about saying Cadiz was a center for Arabic culture around here, people take damned pride in having fought for every single mile every single day until aid came and the "bandolero" guerrilla culture never went away. This is because of how developped the walled city was already before the muslims came and just how good of a defensive feature the mountainrange was. On top of being some really steep mountains they hold some of the densest forests of Spain. So they were always Guerrilla Paradise. So with the locals against them the moors had it quite hard to really control the area. Having to limit themselves to the castles without really having much power over the actual terrain. Most of andalusia is far more islamic than Cadiz. Most ruins in Cadiz City are from the roman/phoenician era.

That said. La Serranía, the mountainrange on Cadiz Province, was the catholic controlled part of the border with granada, being one of the most active areas of exchange and did seep with islamic influence in the same way the crusader states did on the middle east. This summer I'm going to the "pueblos blancos" of said area, already went to one, and will be explaining their culture with pictures on this very thread, I'm already preparing the first writing, so I won't get too elaborate here so as not to spoil. But let's just say the influence is palpable. So while it didn't spread as much as it did from Granada and Seville, which are the historically notorious centers of moorish culture, currently still filled with buildings which were reformed after the Reconquista but still hold plenty of arabic details, Cadiz Province still does have quite a few details left. Just not nearly as famous and far less influential. And we do have quite a few moroccan migrants. The ones that aren't part of the drug cartels are great. The ones that are part of the drug cartels give them a really bad name though... Yeah Andalusia's biggest source of drugs is Morocco so let's just say that wound is heavily hampering our relations currently. Honestly I'm fairly sure most wouldn't even care about the Pateras if it wasn't for all the trafficking.

Either way. Next big writing essay I'll talk about Olvera. And you'll start getting a taste of what the villages got to show and how the christians handled living with leftover moorish populations while at war with granada. Which is surprisingly more peaceful and progressive than people think. Although Olvera having been one of the earliest casstles to be conquered by the christians means we'll only really get one of the viewpoints there. For the other side you gotta get more towards Malaga, the spanish province that was on the southern border of what was called Granada at the time. (Not to be confused with the Province of Granada which was the capital of the kingdom of Granada. Because of course.)


Cream Pangolin
The White Villages, Olvera Part 1:


Cádiz contains in its region most of the area known as the "Serranía de Ronda", most commonly known as simply "La Serranía", which was the eastern border between the Christian forces and the Kingdom of Granada during the latter part of the Reconquista. (For those that don't know, Granada was the first and last bastion of the Moors, and they sure managed to hold onto it way past the point at which the rest of the peninsula had been rebuilt under the banners of the christian kingdoms. This region nowadays isn't as well known, but its influence can definitely be felt in Spanish Culture, just look for any product labelled as "Serrano", that means the technique originated from this region, such products include most famously fucking JAMÓN SERRANO, which might be the most well known icon of Spanish culture. And boy do we take pride on that! Cádiz Province got a lot of history! But back on track, part of why this region was a border for so long, is just how utterly fucked up the terrain of the mountainrange which gives it its name (Sierra literally means "mountainrange", a "Serranía" is the feudal term for an administrative area which is in a mountainrange. "Serranía de Ronda" just means "Mountainous Lordship of Ronda" roughly translated, with Ronda being the largest settlement on the area. Well, it was at the time anyway.) which as I mentioned on other posts basically makes it Guerrilla Paradise. It's seriously downright inscrutable, which guerrillas, militias, bandoleros and other such groups used to great effect in practically all conflicts within the area, and against both the Moors and the French after them. By the way if you're wondering what happened during the Civil War, the border was never even close to the Serranía and they had no industrial relevance so they were mostly left alone by everyone and decided it was better that way, giving refuge to republican guerrillas but officially surrendering to the fracoists so as to avoid any conflict being brought to the villages themselves, so they saw no fighting for a change.


This map with the chronology of the reconquista should explain how long the Serranía spent being a wartorn area officially. And even before that for reasons I'll explain more on the next post (about Chipiona) Cadiz's lower classes and guerrillas were far more vehement and violent about the resistance of moorish occupation than the rest of Andalusia, specially on the mountainrange. They got a lot of pride on resisting the moors for ages! And within said mountainrange reside the "Pueblos Blancos", "White Villages", known that way due to being, well, white. This color comes from the use of quicklime to protect buildings, which originally was done everywhere in Andalusia, since the times of the Romans at least, but the White Villages just kept doing it long past the time at which everyone else stopped, and nowadays in reference while quicklime isn't used anymore they still paint their buildings white anyway, because the white villages care very deeply about their customs and history, and no sane man would ever tell them to stop honoring them. Unless they're suicidal anyway. They've earned their right to be left alone through fire and blood, no one can deny that. So in this new series of posts we'll be exploring said villages, starting with Olvera. Because that's the first I've revisited. Here's another map of the Serranía's conflicts for reference:


Hey wanna guess how "Castille" earned its fucking name? Every one of those black icons is either a minor castle or a fortified town, and the red are the major castles. This by the way is why the Spanish Republicans used the mural crown for the shield, as Castille had used it as its heraldric crown before joining with León. The crown of castille was built in stone! This is why in many heraldric shields you see "de mi sale la paz" (peace comes from me) surrounding a castle. They really were the best way to ensure peace at the time, and the south knew it well.


What even is vertigo? Hah! Sadly when looked down from the top the camera doesn't display properly just how high it is, as the background seems closer than IRL, which is more noticeable on the reverse pic from the top of the keep. For reference just look at the trees' size and that should tell you the distance. And yes, all of those green dots are Olive Trees, those aren't small bushes.


Olvera for the most part is just a pretty normal village, at least by Spanish metrics of "normality" which involves some good fucking ankles! I'd say the amount of Olive Trees should tell you what their biggest business is, they got Oil Presses for days. The castle itself is specifically called "El Castillo Árabe" (The Arab Castle) because there was an arabic fortress there originally, but every feature seems to indicate it was razed to the ground and completely rebuilt in 1327 After Alfonso XI captured it from Ibrahim-ibn-Utman of the Nazarís. It is part of a large series of castles around the mountainrange which have direct view of one another. This is not only due to their value defending the mountainrange, but also betrays their use as a communications array. You know that image from Lord of the Rings?

That ain't fantasy. It's not there anymore but that big fat keep originally had a bigass fireplace to warn neighboring regions of enemy troop movement. And while the fireplaces were dismantled with time, we still got a lot of small towers in the middle of buttfuck nowhere which were links on the chain where the bigger castles couldn't see each other. We'll hopefully see some of them closer this summer, but I don't have pics today. This is why the castle was directly built on the mountaintop. While defense is also definitely a factor, any old hill does for that, and hills have some of the largest castles precisely because of the added space and proximity to better lands, the economic side of nation building is what determines the capital, not so much the defense. But when it comes to a proper border in the middle ages, you need to be pretty fucking tall to control a large area and be able to communicate through a large distance, and so, just take a look at that height!


And the whole damned village is already on a steep angle! This is just the last jump up! I feel sorry for the ankles of whoever had to climb that routinely. Oh and btw before anyone asks, yes I did try to find the Hassassin's Tomb the Moors clearly had to leave right there while I was at it. Sadly I don't have eagle vission so I couldn't find it. But if you just go take a drill to that bit right there I'm sure you'll find some kind of Eden Artifact.


And it's not even like it would go against the traditions of the area! Local Legend says the Moors couldn't take everything with them when they went away and collapsed the catacombs of their castle before going hoping to reopen them when they could retake Olvera. And it is typical for kids to go treasure hunting on the castle in search for the legendary lost riches. Of course this is just local legend and any (chocolate) "riches" were left by their parents, much like Santa Claus, but kids are happy and it's cute. I'm still saying that shit's too perfect not to be some kinda exit door though. Just gotta find the entrance! Jokes aside, the Nazarís weren't sent away packing after an assault, they surrendered during a siege and were allowed to peacefully collect their things and leave for Granada, and the archeologists haven't found shit, so the legend's probably bollocks, but come on that opening is so glaringly obvious!


The rest of the village's as such sadly not that interesting outside of location and aesthetics, outside of the church which we'll see later, but here's some panoramic shows anyway because damn is it beautiful.





If you're wondering why that old map shows so much less houses than the photos, it's of course because the town's grown since its feudal state, here's the map of the growth:


But let's actually get inside the castle! Honestly, not much is left, most has been moved to various museums all over the place, but we still got some old glories awaiting for us like this black virgin:


There's plenty of black christs and virgins around Spain, most are just products of the african missions brought back home after being expelled by local lords and foreign powers during the colonial era, some are instead just wooden christs and virgins which turned black due to aging of the materials. Due to painting and garb it seems obvious this one is of the first kind, although not much is known. And yes, the baby is just a plastic "replica" (a toy, yes, they used a toy, it's hilarious) after the original baby disappeared (probably stolen), and it's very obvious just how fake it is. Apparently they never bothered fixing it because they have no pic or living person who remembers how it's meant to look so it'd be equally fake anyway, and Cadiz's both impoverished enough to care about how much it'd cost and an area with enough of a tradition of humour to not give a shit how it looks. Viva la guasa!


On the other hand this one sure as shit ain't fake. It's the most typical archeological dig, a good ol' hunk a' junka! The shape's gone all weird due to rust and being buried but it doesn't seem originally improperly shaped (that weird top seems like it was a symetric pattern before rust obliterated it) and between that and the amount of metal used to make a proper, fitted full plate that means this was probably done for a lord or noble, sadly by the time archeologists got to it it had been in the ground for a while and water had done a number on it, so it's practically worthless even as an archeological piece, as there are much better examples being kept in proper museums with more guards. I still like it though.


I was originally gonna call it "old reliable" but let's assume it, this shit'd break if I sneezed at it too close. I'm sure there's some kind of philosophical diatribe about aging to be inserted here, but honestly I'm just happy there's still some remainder to be archived even if it's so broken. Any intel on our ancestors is appreciated, and that does include the Moors, even if they weren't kind to this region. The rest of the display sadly is in similar state, this is no proper museum, and I have less comments about it, so let me just dump the pics here.
















I got closer pics of every decoration independently if you want them, but I'm leaving them for a second post because I don't wanna murder the server by overloading a post this much. Either way as you can see outside of the christian banner, which uses a variation on the priorly mentioned motto to change it for "art comes from me", a reference to the treasure hunting I also mentioned, most is just random arabic shit they found on the original castle and kept around because it had less value than the stuff sent to museums. If anyone can interpret those things better you're free to try I haven't found shit so outside of the text filled rugs I'm fairly sure that's just literally an asortment of decorative crap with no more uses or deeper meaning. Outside of that the castle's biggest feature are the fucking stairs. Seriously the original guards must've had athletics maxed out, god damn!




If you're wondering where that last stair into the abyss leads to, that's the warehouse. Back before refrigerators were a thing people needed a cool place to place their food, so they just dug a hole straight into the mountain and hollowed it out. Sadly the inside's just a big square room with an arched roof so there was nothing important there. But it made for a nice break after so many fucking stairs! That done with, well, here's a nice little decorated water canal they got. Looks cool but it was done at a later point so it has no real significance or historical value other than that. It's very nice though.



As a small bonus, here's a pretty cool invention of the time, a Saetera. Although this one's pretty mishapen and eroded. Saeteras (literally meaning "holes for the crossbow bolts") were one of the most blatant differences between christian and muslim castles, being built by christians all over their walls but not muslims. And I'm sure almost all of you (with the exception of any history nerd) will be wondering why the hell this would be so important.


Well as you can see these holes are shorter and fatter than regular arrow slits, because they were specifically meant to be used by crossbowmen. The top cross allowed the archer to shoot far away, letting the weapon pivot left and right and using the top slit for vision. The lower round hole allowed the crossbow better movility for aiming at closer opponents. And thing is, the Moors specifically used bows, and no crossbows, because the qur'an has verses based around the use of bows, saying "when firing a bow it's allah that aims for you", so they considered them holy weapons, and considered crossbows some kind of heresy. The Spanish Christians on the other hand started favouring the crossbow about as soon as it was invented, this is mostly because it is indeed a very good weapon, and while at the time areas like britain were still favoring the longbow, after centuries of war northern spain literally considered everyone, from the lowest peasant to the highest noble, a member of the militia, which would later be ratified through the "right of universal hidalguia", which literally proclaimed everyone born on the northern kingdoms part of lower nobility. Everyone, and I mean everyone was trained on not just operating but also maintaining their weaponry from birth, and that includes women practicing with spears, hatchets and maces as they were expected to defend their homestead or even towns if no males were available, which the "knights of the hatchet" did much later for Tortosa, being the first all-female knightly order as it was created to honour such feat. A buncha peasant ladies literally expelled a whole damned yihad on their own! As such Spain had much less issue adapting to such weaponry, and as a result the crossbow was just naturally adopted due to the simple fact that if you knew how to use and maintain your tools it was better than a bow.


Because of this by the time of the second half of the reconquista bows were seen as hunting tools for nobles, crossbows had earned the mocking name of "Christian Bow", and were one of the two ranged weapons used by the militias, the other being javelins which we already talked about on the tales about Cerignola. The use of ranged weapons as such became one of the most glaring differences between the two forces, and this shaped the holes in their walls, and because changing the holes on the walls of castles was near impossible without just tearing them down at that point in time, this became one of the most telling differences between castles which were built (or torn down and rebuilt) by the christians and those built by the moors and left alone by the christians. Since as we'll see Christian and Moorish culture had merged so much by the end of the Reconquista that outside of language and religion nearly everything was exactly the same. With the moors having notoriously christian facets which their african allies would come to resent when they interacted with them, and the christians having notoriously arabic facets which the Anglicans and French would use to demonize Spain when they came into conflict. But use of crossbows, farming of pork for food, and wether swords should be curved or straight were some of the most crucial points at which christian and islamic forces had irreconcilable views. Fucking kek. Imagine centuries of warfare between two of the most viciously opposed factions in human history resulting in them only being distinguishable by wether they used scimitars or arming swords due to the centuries of coexistence. I guess that's the best indicator no matter how radically minded we really are all humans underneath in the end. So remember, whenever you hate someone, you just need to tear their skin off! ... Wait no.


So, with the castle finished, let me just dump all the letters for my fellow Hispanohablantes to enjoy and possibly translate at their leasure, because honestly I am fairly sure I'm running out of space on this post and also have so much more info to dump on future posts.


I mean really, I haven't spoken of how the arabs were treated under christian rules, the changes to cuture seen from the interaction between the factions, and we haven't even explored the damned church!


So I guess this means this needs to be another multipart series after all. Hope you enjoyed this snippet of information, and until next time, remember...


No matter how much you hate your neighbor, don't tear their skin off.
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Cream Pangolin
Cádiz and the Moors:


I think it's time I take a small detour to talk about a small but poinient fact which will be made more and more apparent as we travel through the province of Cádiz. The Islamic forces weren't kind to Cádiz. Far from it. And it left scars.


The Moors first landed in the peninsula in 710. Their first landing point was Gibraltar. Which is technically not Cádiz province but sure seems like it. This btw was the founding of the Colony of Gibraltar. Before this point no one had settled there. Which makes the claims of current Gibraltar government hilarious. (For those that don't know Gibraltar's Gov has a serious inferiority complex and it's obvious.) And even then they quickly went back home to northern africa as it was just a scout force, and was not met with friendly locals.

The Moors did however use this scouting to asses the Visigoth's strengths, and would come back in 711 and conquer Seville. Establishing their first colony in Spain, which was later joined by Murcia as the second colony. From there they moved up the Guadalquivir river until they managed to connect the two coasts, establishing what would later become Granada as their supply chain's entry point and establishing Cordoba as their new capital.

This will sound pretty meaningless but I've actually given you the biggest reason why you should start realizing how the Islamic occupation of Cádiz would go... Let me give you a more graphic hint:


That's a map of the Guadalquivir river. Which they used on their westward conquest. And let me add a map of Spanish Provinces so you can get a clearer picture.


See what's going on there? Cádiz didn't get conquered. It got surrounded and sandwiched.

By 717 the Moors had arrived in france and all of Levante had fallen. By 800 the Asturians had started the Reconquista and the northern kingdoms had been established. Wanna know how much it took for Cádiz to fall in the meantime?

Well. That is harder to say. Because the moors didn't keep good records. For reasons we'll talk about later. But if you check online wikipedia and every other page that copied it says 711. Are they right? HAHAHAHAHA FUCK NO. They didn't even manage to conquer Algeciras, the bay Gibraltar is a part of, until 712. Until 713 they didn't launch raids to conquer the other coastal towns in Cadiz province. And we don't even have a date for when the mountainrange fell at all.

As for the Capital. This is a harder deal. Because Cádiz capital at this point wasn't even a single city. The city was later joined by artificial land bridges, but at this point it was 3 separate islands. We know they established a small outpost in Cerro del Moro, which is an area on the larger island (although now it's a peninsula but you get my point) outside of the city walls, in 711, but there is no document establishing when they managed to enter the actual walls of the city on said island, and nor do we have any intel on the other two regions. But we do know one thing. We know when they broke the last of the small islands.

You see. They gave that island a name and a legend. The name was "Sanam Qādis", The Idol of Cadiz, because they claimed it contained a large pillar-like structure which caused the Gibraltar Strait to be as hard to maneuver as it was. More on that later. And they did record when the island was invaded, razed and the pillar toppled. This was done by Abd-al-Mumin, in 1145. Marking the last christian settlement on Cádiz Province to fall to them. Fuckers got to france in 8 years but it took them 434 to break Cádiz. And I find a bit of irony here. Cádiz returned to christian control in 1264. And while 119 years is a lot of time and more back in that day, after 4 centuries of survival it almost makes it feel like it lost the battle at the last second. It sure put a good fight anyway. No one can deny that.

This isn't entirely sincere on my part however. Part of the reason why a part of Cádiz survived so long was mere political maneuvering. It just wasn't worth invading. You might wonder why then they bothered besieging it so late. Reason is because Abd-al-Mumin wasn't a Moor. He was an Almohade who was conquering the Moors and this move proved valuable to him for Propaganda. More on that later. But despite the relative coexistence based on Cádiz being worth less than what it'd take to break it. (Naval blockades back in the day were much harder than nowadays and for those days the walls were top notch.) You can bet your ass than much like it did against the French much later, Gadeira served to keep the local populace in Cadiz Province more than unwilling to listen to the Moors. Indeed without local support it had trouble feeding itself and yet, it managed to do it. It was fed by resistance movements and gave them a place to hide and use for rhetoric in return. For 434 fucking years.

Between that and the mountains being filled to the brim with Guerrillas, you can imagine Cádiz Province gave the moors quite a hard fucking time. And thing is. They gave it a hard time in return. The moors didn't ever trust this province with any degree of power outside of the needed due to the importance of the port of Cádiz (bigger island), the locals were always treated harshly and with an iron fist. And honestly I can't blame them, it's not like the locals were making it any easier. But as you can imagine this didn't help their propaganda none. While on other regions they were embraced more readily, for the people of Cádiz they were never anything other than invaders. Peace would never enter their mind as a solution, just a temporary state until they got stronger enough to go back to waging guerrilla warfare. Until eventually they won.


Let's talk climate. The strait of Gibraltar may look short, and it is. But it's also the border between two tectonic plates, and while on the surface the rumbling of the two plates colliding is rarely felt, the vibrations make the waves on the area particularly horrendous. On top of that, the strait is the path between the mediterranean and the atlantic, which makes its short distance a detriment, as it maximizes the height of the tides going in and out. And indeed the change of temperature between the two bodies of water also makes currents significantly worse in the strait than in either of them. To top it off even the atmosphere hates the strait, with infamously bad winds due to the climate difference. Basically, the strait of Gibraltar is THE harshest and most unforgiving climate the romans encountered before reaching scotland.

Because of this all early mediterranean civilizations had some kind of myth about this region. The most famous being the Pillars of Hercules, which British scholars later claimed was about 2 mountains, one of which being their newly conquered colony of Gibraltar, ejem, but most scholars before and nowadays agreed was in reference to the 2 main pillars at the gates of the phoenician temple in Cádiz. The Moors similarly blamed the poor climate on the idol of Cádiz, and even the christians after them would come to claim a legendary statue of muhammad built on Cádiz was the cause of it, and claimed they fixed it by slaying it god of war style. Which they probably coppied from the toppling of the pillar by our pal Abd. No I'm nor kidding and it's hilarious. Seems only thing everyone agreed on is that one port town in the middle of buttfuck nowhere was to blame for it somehow!

And let's now talk about said city. Founded by the Phoenicians Cádiz is to this day the oldest city still standing in Europe. It was the first european port in recorded history. And remained one of the most important ports in the mediterranean until the fall of the western roman empire. During that time Cádiz province had villages which deeply specialized on specific trades and industries, such as wine for Chipiona. Using the ease of connection to the central hub of Cádiz from the coast to grow considerably.

So basically, while the coast of Levante and the river Guadalquivir were relatively less protected, at this point in time the coasts of Cádiz were filled with people in walled cities who were more than ready to defend their land.

This should tell you why Granada was so important. While it is true than military waves, which cared deeply about time before landing, had to go through the strait, well not only was the strait tretcherous but arable land near the coast was mostly occupied by people who would absolutely put up a fight. Seville did put up a fight at first but at that time it was a river town which depended on its enemies not reaching it to survive, so it was a softer target, and sending supplies from Magreb to Murcia or Granada may be longer, but it was much, much easier and more reliable. And so, the Granada-Seville axis became the most important node of Moorish conquest. They didn't just come straight up like an arrow, they made a little interconnected loop to keep their supplies safe. Btw if you're wondering why Granada was favored over Murcia. That was due to infighting amongst the Moors it had nothing to do with climate.


And infighting is the next point. I've been referring to all Islamic forces as Moors so far. But while that is the generic term most used, there were a ton of movements that came up from africa. And most weren't friendly towards the prior movements. Hell even the Berber which were first called for aid as allies quickly betrayed their former masters and took control. And guess where said movements started their military campaigns? With the Granada-Seville axis now reinforced by the Arabs and Cádiz's fights turning it into an underbelly, they all targeted our beloved province first. Divide to win after all, what better that striking an already divided area.

And while nearly all islamic movements slowly turned more accepting, when they came from africa most of them came in a purging mood. Always having fights were they demonized the current moors for not being radical enough in their aplication of islamic law. So while by the time they got upwards they had softened a bit, Cádiz always got them at their most violent and puritanical.

Add to that the internal conflicts in Al-Andalus, and how those impeded specialized towns like the ones Cádiz province had seen in the past and you can see how the period of Muslim occupation for Cádiz was one of bloodshed, repression and conflict. The moors did not make a good impression.

So what about the Christians? As we'll see in Chipiona's post, the Reconquista is literally called Cádiz's renaissance by the villages. While early Sevillian government was as bad as Seville always is, as soon as Cádiz got independence (at the province level from seville, not at the country level from Spain) the new Capital focused on rebuilding the roman trade routes, the villages managed to rebuild their prior specializations and focus on what they did best, and the region quickly became one of the richest and most influential in Spain, which it would be until the Borbon monarchs choked it in their attempt to return to totalitarianism centuries later. Cádiz's government during the reconquista and until after the totalitarian vs liberal conflicts was one marked by this focus on commerce, early adoption of foreign scholars, and proto-liberal values. It was a golden age, much like it had a golden age before the moors came. As such, comparisons make their occupation look even worse. Quite simply, they did not win us over, not in the slightest.


That said. Don't think we have anything against Arabs. Precisely because of said Liberal tendencies Cádiz has always had the most racial mix and higher number of migrants. And nowadays it's hard to live here and not be friends with at least a few recent migrants from north africa.

Cádiz has always been pro-integration and if there's one thing all spaniards know, is good people can have very bad leadership. Ironically enough while Cádiz is the last place in Andalucía I'd go to learn about arabic culture, it is the first in order to learn about actual arabs.

This is a trend I talked about on other threads. Although there I referred to rural areas vs cities. It's funny really. In america Texas has the most integration between blacks and whites, despite being seen as the most racist. Meanwhike the west coast is always going on about acceptance and diversity. But they have the highest disparity, and when they meet actual racial minorities, they often find what they have to say offensive.

Here in spain same things happen. Catalonia always talks about being accepting and progressive, but whenever they meet actual migrants they get offended, because spoiler alert, african migrants are bipedal fucking redpill dispensers, mofos don't have a filter. Meanwhile ol' rural andalusia with its fame for being catholic and regressive is the area with the least racial disparity and most actual integration.

And yes we definitely criticize african governments more than the catalonians. But the migrants are the first to do so! Why do you think they migrated?! It's cause they didn't like it back home! Cadiz has the same aspect. If you find discrimination in andalusia it's always the ultracatholic lobbies of Seville and Cordoba doint it, ironically despite being the areas with the most pride in their moorish legacy, they seem to have the most animosity towards the arabs, although even there it is rare. In cadiz outside of cerro del moro you won't find a single person having ill will towards north africans. Fuck it's near impossible to be raised here and not have 2nd generation migrants as classmates. And only reason Cerro del Moro sees more racism is due to the gang warfare between the moroccan druglords and romanian gypsies, and honestly romanian gypsis are racists towards all "payos" (non-gypsies) anyway. So yeah... once more. Those more willing to criticize the culture are the most accepting towards the individual. Seems like a trend nowadays.

Hope you enjoyed this little aside. And excuse my weird philosophical diarrhea near the end, just a topic I find fascinating because it seems to betray human thought process.


Cream Pangolin
Hey! Well this thread died a tad. Don't worry I got more to come. But first a sneak peak, and face reveal...


Oh the humanity! Seems the pagans from old Gadir were nazi sympathizers! Hehehehehehehehe.

In case the post about Olvera didn't make it obvious. With the push for national tourism some friends from the workplace have come to Cadiz this summer and I'm acting as amateur guide for them, and using the pics to show you the beauty of this province.

So it seems they're OK with carrying a birb picture around for pics. I was originally gonna show it first on the Chipiona part, but when I saw that nice Swastika on the roman mosaic (or maybe it was a tessela? I'll check when I actually explain it) I just had to use it. God that's hilarious.

John Titor

Pronouns: time/temporal/tempself
True & Honest Fan
Siestas: good idea the rest of the world should adopt or something that makes sense only in Spain?


Cream Pangolin
Siestas: good idea the rest of the world should adopt or something that makes sense only in Spain?
It makes sense to rest for a bit after lunch. Because digestion is a thing. And guess what? Everyone does it to one degree or another. Siesta is literally just the spanish term for "nap" everything else is just myth. They're neither something that just makes sense in spain nor something special spain invented, it's just napping after eating. Literally everyone has at least some degree of a meal break for digestion.

Only reason Spain got linked to Siestas like it did was Franco. And the reason was his mismanagement. During the civil war Franco decided to apply german time, which Spain still applies, simultaneously moving the time two hours and applying daylight savings for the first time. Because of this people's change in timetable caused a lot of sleeping problem, which spaniards still have to this day due to the poor daylight hours because we haven't yet turned back the timetable btw. So to fix it instead of being a reasonable ruler and turning back to spanish time he made Siesta mandatory to fix the sleeping issues. This did not help btw and the psychological issues it caused are legendary. But yeah. It wasn't some ancient tradition, it was just a bad patch for a worse idea that we need to fix already.


Cream Pangolin
Hah! As if! It's never too many for ol' spain! Plus you think your bickering gets bad? During the 1st republic spain had the cantonal wars. I'll get into that in a future post I guess, but to summarize. Spain tried to go federal, mostly because even we knew we didn't stand each other anymore. But that went bad because the government was met with a subset of "federalists" who wanted to use the federation movement to just split up entirely and stop being a country. And they got pretty fuckig violent about it. The north specially but down south Seville and Murcia (calling itself cartagena) did too.

This thankfully was smashed by the republicans so we didn't split. Wanna know how many countries spain would've split into had the cantonalists won? One for every province. That's 50 countries, 50 fucking separate countries just counting "core territories" (not counting the colonies and african territories which would've certainly split on their own terms)

So yeah. You think we left too many kids outside? We got too many kids inside is the real issue! And provinces have been the core administrative element of spain until democracy created the autonomous communities, that's why we got so many single province communities. And some of us want to split from our autonomies (most notably leon, though they want to carry 2 more provinces with them) so yeah... if anything the amount of bickering going around in the americas is solid proof y'all are just like your momma. We're proud of ya.
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True & Honest Fan
Hah! As if! It's never too many for ol' spain! Plus you think your bickering gets bad? During the 1st republic spain had the cantonal wars. I'll get into that in a future post I guess, but to summarize. Spain tried to go federal, mostly because even we knew we didn't stand each other anymore. But that went bad because the government was met with a subset of "federalists" who wanted to use the federation movement to just split up entirely and stop being a country. And they got pretty fuckig violent about it. The north specially but down south Seville and Murcia (calling itself cartagena) did too.

This thankfully was smashed by the republicans so we didn't split. Wanna know how many countries spain would've split into had the cantonalists won? One for every province. That's 50 countries, 50 fucking separate countries just counting "core territories" (not counting the colonies and african territories which would've certainly split on their own terms)

So yeah. You think we left too many kids outside? We got too many kids inside is the real issue! And provinces have been the core administrative element of spain until democracy created the autonomous communities, that's why we got so many single province communities. And some of us want to split from our autonomies (most notably leon, though they want to carry 2 more provinces with them) so yeah... if anything the amount of bickering going around in the americas is solid proof y'all are just like your momma. We're proud of ya.
If only Emperor Agustin didn't die and we stayed an Empire, you would have less children to deal with. then again most of central America doesn't show up in that meme and I guess it's because they're still embarrassed over starting a war over fucking futbol
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Cream Pangolin
If only Emperor Agustin didn't die and we stayed an Empire, you would have less children to deal with. then again most of central America doesn't show up in that meme and I guess it's because they're still embarrassed over starting a war over fucking futbol
Eh. No need to be ashamed of that. The Italians started a war over a fucking bucket. And the HRE's troops once slaughtered themselves and fled from no one because their cavalry got drunk. I assure you, humans have a near infinite capacity to declare war for the dumbest fucking reasons.

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Munch Munch
they're still embarrassed over starting a war over fucking futbol
That was El Salvador and Honduras and mostly had to do with immigration IIRC ,but either way Its weird always seeing Salvadorans partnering up with Hondurans considering the countries have had tensions at their borders for a while.


Cream Pangolin
I always found it interesting how even the Catholic Church understood that you have to let people blow off some steam on occasion.
It's kinda easy to understand once you take into account what the catholics were. Original christians were extremely prone to infighting and that's why the more violent groups caused as much damage as they did to the pagans, as this infighting caused the extreme puritans to get into the forefront and pagan attempts at repression made it far worse.

Then when it was obvious the christians would win, the roman emperors struck a deal with the catholics, which were at the time one of the least repressive groups, even using the tale of lucifer to condemn puritanism (lucifer's original sin wasn't hubris per say, but refusing to obey humanity, humanity in said tale being a stand in for secular authorities. Do note that the luciferians were a denomination of christian known for being extremists before the catholics used this tale to condemn them as devil worshippers and purge them.)

Essentially. The whole damned point of the catholic church's very birth was to temper the christian and convert the pagans more peacefully in an attempt to salvage the roman empire. Sadly it didn't work but they did make it less extreme than it would've been. Which is saying something.

Then during the dark ages reading latin is a skill only priests have in the west. Giving the catholics power to just lie their asses off shamelessly. They would use this power to great lengths. Shit is. Priests originally didn't really have the job of spreading the word of god, shit during the pagans there wasn't even a true unified word of god! The whole damned point of religion was to keep people complacent. And I mean this both in the negative way and the positive. Most rural priests spent most of their time being glorified psychologists that listened to the endless insane ravings of the villagers and got them to stop fucking each other over then told them to pray for that sweet placebo effect. Early catholic church basically was a scam, and knew it, and was OK with it, 'cause all they really cared was societal powerstruggles, not any skydaddy's commandments. This is precisely why the orthodox church to the east was far more puritanical and repressive, 'cause the byzantines still could read, so the orthodox couldn't just lie their ass off.

You may wonder then what happened to make puritanism resurge so brutaly. Well some priests translated the damned holy book and used the printing press to get everyone to read it! Yeah the catholics had a good gig till the protestants fucked it up. Now don't get me wrong the catholics were corrupt as fuck by that point. But for instance even at the height of cryptomuslim cults in spain the inquisition had a pretty good record of still finding people innocent or straight up getting them to repent without killing them. They didn't get truly fucked up until they clashed with the protestants in the netherlands, that's when they got people burnin' and can you blame them? The protestants literally tried to purge all catholics before spain got control of the area! Not only that witch hunters routinely purged other denominations of protestants over the stupidest interpretations of passages!

The printing press was great but when people found out just how much time the catholics had spent lying their asses off shamelessly they went off the fucking rockers. And the protestant reformation of the catholic church brought forth some of the most repressive and puritanical traditions followed nowadays by the catholics church itself. That's when things went south.