I have an ethical question that this very obvious death plague has raised. - Are there any moral issues around lying when society is against you?

[Haim Arlosoroff]

To quickly get to the point, my issue is my beliefs that COVID is mostly hysteria and that I do not trust Big Pharma to not fuck things up Thalidomide levels of bad.

My situation is that I am married, have a daughter, and my side of the family are complete sheep. My mother and my FtM Brother eat up modernity's commodification of unearned confidence and self-esteem. At first they approached me about joining their vaccination party in a month or twos time where they and their social circle could sit around discussing the side-effects of the various vaccines and probably wind up comparing them to Harry Potter wizard houses or whatever. I declined as I lived far and away from them, and that seemed a hell on earth affair. About a day later, they skyped me to ask about my vaccination schedule for me and mine. I was upfront, it went ok and very sad and quiet. They later asked my wife behind my back, who shares my beliefs as does her mother which has actually been a nice bonding moment with my in-law. She let me know, and politely declined their offer to help work around me. That was the point where I got mad and stubborn, when normally I'm the calm logical one.

Since then, I've been sent chat messages about their beliefs. As has the wife. Then the daughter got one, and the wife escalated things because that made it her business. We had a voice chat over a breakfast, which was early for us on our end, it was very sad (although very telling how we were calm and they were emotional) and now I might be completely out of touch with my side of the family for at least the near future. I'm not happy with this abstractly, but I'm happy for the stress and passive-aggression to be over from my own mom and sibling.

However I've been thinking it over, should I have just lied? It wasn't that they were the source of the problem, they are pushed alongside the rest of us, so it doesn't seem like a concession to evil. What if I just told them, "yep, we're doing the whole shit, sure thing" and just left it alone?

 

[teriyakiburns]

Lying creates a need to remember the lies. That's a stressor that can ruin your health, but more to the point, it can trip you up if you get the lies wrong.

I try to stick to a simple principle: if I'm forced to lie to someone in order to maintain a relationship, then that relationship isn't worth the effort in its current state and I should either do something to repair it so that lies aren't necessary, or I should exit at the first opportunity. Of course it doesn't always work out like that and lies, little or large, are often the social grease that keeps relationships and society from grinding to a halt.

The issue here isn't really the vax, it's your family demanding to participate in what should be a personal decision (even if it's just "when" rather than "whether") and getting pissy because you're not giving them that level of control over your life. They tried multiple avenues to manipulate you, through deception and outright lies. Would a lie in return have sated them? Probably not, because they'd just move on to some other thing and demanded to participate in that instead, or they would have sussed out the lie and doubled down on proselytising you to their new-found faith.

 

[Tleilaxian]

My mother and my FtM Brother

No father around?

 

[Crazedking]

No father around?

many such cases.

Also, it depend on the person. Ive no issues with little white lies to make my life easier and not have to deal with some awkward social situation. Up to you to determine what your treshold is. If its a big enough issue though, dont lie. Spinning up massive webs of lie will just get you tangled up and stress you out. Just be honest about it and if the people still cant accept that, agree to disagree. If they cant do that either then fuck em.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

No father around?

Of course not, Not in either of the wife and I's. Believe me, that's not going to be my daughter's problem.

I don't want to powerlevel, but he was military.

many such cases.

Also, it depend on the person. Ive no issues with little white lies to make my life easier and not have to deal with some awkward social situation. Up to you to determine what your treshold is. If its a big enough issue though, dont lie. Spinning up massive webs of lie will just get you tangled up and stress you out. Just be honest about it and if the people still cant accept that, agree to disagree. If they cant do that either then fuck em.

That's what I did, not sure it was the right choice. I could have just lied about an issue that probably wouldn't matter the longer we stayed silent. My anger was up, my anger was probably right though.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

Don't lie, just tell them the truth and tell them to suck it.

 

[L50LasPak]

You should never be ashamed of cutting people loose from your life.

 

[Madre Muerte]

They're just family, who cares about them

 

[User names must be unique]

Is hiding your powerlevel lying? If so I lie more often than I tell the truth.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I put "all the time", but after thinking about it a bit more, it is definitely wrong to lie about something if it will likely lead to another person being harmed while you won't benefit in an equal way (easiest example, lie about not having STD to a sexual partner).
But besides that very rare scenario there is no other time it is wrong.

 

[retard strength]

In these times of absolute social hysteria and people having 110% blind faith in the government despite everything, I have been lying about anything related to covid outside of my immediate family. This, sadly, includes my own friends now. It comes up most at work.

They ask about my vaccine plan, I say "soon". They badger, I say "I have to meet with my PCP first". I wear the required mask at work, it is off everywhere else. Literally and figuratively! I don't know how long this shit will last, but I can hold out longer than their social pressure.

This would be a nightmare to navigate with kids, their schools, their teachers, and brainwashed grandparents. Well wishes to you OP.

 

[Fek]

All this tells me is that you hold your principles above lying. In spite of their nature, you care about your pro-jab family members, yes? Lying to those whom you care about is a path to ruin, so in avoiding the lie you are demonstrating how much that person means to you. I think that's the right choice. Now, were this story altered so that these were merely some useful idiot neighbors of yours or some meaningless out-group? Lying would be far, far less of an ethical sin, let's say. I would argue that it's far better to just simply dismiss or avoid someone outright than it is to lie unless presented with no other choice. I would say lying to your in-group is far worse than an out-group, ultimately, however blurred the lines between them may be.

This has me thinking about the future a little bit. What if, god forbid, somewhere down the road we do enter a situation where there will be some form of forced vaccination (for your job, via state mandate, etc)? You cannot extend a hand of altruism to those who seek to cause you harm unless you want it chopped off. I guess this is where you have to decide for yourself whether or not that was your family's intention, or rather..where one goes from "just wanting the best for you" into irredeemable cult-like zealotry? Would they rat you out in this scenario? Your wife? Your daughter? Not fun to think about, but you should be mindful of it moving forward. Just because someone is family doesn't automatically mean they are deserving of in-group preference (especially if they would clearly not grant you the same benefit).

 

[Megaroad 2012]

Imagine caring about anyone's opinion that isn't your wife and daughters and stressing out about it enough to make this thread.

Familal bonds especially to zombies is for the weak.

 

[Just Another Apocalypse]

'When a man lies, he murders some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives.'

 

[Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite]

I just don't discuss things that I know are going to cause issues. They give me their POV and I just nod, I do not say I agree but I also do not tell them why I don't agree.

 

[TFT-A9]

I was raised to believe in the axiom "Honesty is the best policy"

That's bullshit by the way

It's not, at least not now

 

[In Memoriam]

I lied about to some people about the jab, but not others. As stated above, it came down to whether I cared about the person or not. A lot of my vaccine zealot acquaintances have gotten some truly nasty side effects, so that’s been fun.

 

[FEETLOAF]

Never lie to someone who matters.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

I guess this is where you have to decide for yourself whether or not that was your family's intention, or rather..where one goes from "just wanting the best for you" into irredeemable cult-like zealotry? Would they rat you out in this scenario? Your wife? Your daughter? Not fun to think about, but you should be mindful of it moving forward. Just because someone is family doesn't automatically mean they are deserving of in-group preference (especially if they would clearly not grant you the same benefit).

My gut tells me yes, it breaks my heart but they are too far gone. It wasn't the feminism, it wasn't homosexuality, it wasn't transsexuality, it was COVID that finally pushed their worldview completely apart from mine. I cannot rely on them to 'hide a body' as far as trust goes, if the state banned purple hat wearing then they would turn me in for that. Once, I did believe they would protect me from the state. Now I don't think they would protect any child, not even mine.

Familal bonds especially to zombies is for the weak.

Humanity is only further devolving our civilization then, our familial bonds are part of what makes us human. I feel like casting off loose family is akin to normalizing sodomy or what Bill Gates did with Epstein. I honestly don't know.

A lot of my vaccine zealot acquaintances have gotten some truly nasty side effects, so that’s been fun.

I wish and I don't wish, I only hope they are woken up at some point but I think we're socially beyond that point. I no longer assume at some point society will recombine or reintegrate morally with itself.

 

[bobsaget69]

To quickly get to the point, my issue is my beliefs that COVID is mostly hysteria and that I do not trust Big Pharma to not fuck things up Thalidomide levels of bad.

My situation is that I am married, have a daughter, and my side of the family are complete sheep. My mother and my FtM Brother eat up modernity's commodification of unearned confidence and self-esteem. At first they approached me about joining their vaccination party in a month or twos time where they and their social circle could sit around discussing the side-effects of the various vaccines and probably wind up comparing them to Harry Potter wizard houses or whatever. I declined as I lived far and away from them, and that seemed a hell on earth affair. About a day later, they skyped me to ask about my vaccination schedule for me and mine. I was upfront, it went ok and very sad and quiet. They later asked my wife behind my back, who shares my beliefs as does her mother which has actually been a nice bonding moment with my in-law. She let me know, and politely declined their offer to help work around me. That was the point where I got mad and stubborn, when normally I'm the calm logical one.

Since then, I've been sent chat messages about their beliefs. As has the wife. Then the daughter got one, and the wife escalated things because that made it her business. We had a voice chat over a breakfast, which was early for us on our end, it was very sad (although very telling how we were calm and they were emotional) and now I might be completely out of touch with my side of the family for at least the near future. I'm not happy with this abstractly, but I'm happy for the stress and passive-aggression to be over from my own mom and sibling.

However I've been thinking it over, should I have just lied? It wasn't that they were the source of the problem, they are pushed alongside the rest of us, so it doesn't seem like a concession to evil. What if I just told them, "yep, we're doing the whole shit, sure thing" and just left it alone?

I am in a similar situation to you and posted my own circumstance here:

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/wuhan-coronavirus-megathread.65421/post-9063031

It boils down to not being able to trust my family to keep my stance a secret. They are pretty outgoing, middle and left wing politically, and love to talk, and could eventually lead to someone ratting me out to my employer, because I have to work around kids a lot in my profession. They would probably rationalize that I am a threat to them not being vaxed.

I am forced to lie to my own mother, because she refuses to see my perspective and respect it for what it is. If people will not respect your decision, then they do not deserve an honest answer.

While it is stressful to lie, it is also stressful to have to put up with people's continued neurotic need to have you join their cult through shame and coercion. It's exhausting and consuming.

It does not matter how rational your answers will be to them, they will never respect your position, they are seemingly inside of some sort of religious mass movement now (about as religious as it can get for people in the year 2015+6). They do not use empiricism to base their decisions about this vaccine, but instead use blind faith and trust in authority, as though science is itself a religion to be worshiped and never questioned.

I am sorry for your predicament.