Immigration -

[Cosmos]

With the Euro migrant crisis and the upcoming U.S. election, immigration has been a hot topic. So I figured I'd make an all-purpose thread to discuss the concept of immigration itself.

Generally, I think immigration is good, but only if immigrants are willing to integrate into their host countries and be productive citizens. Many Western European countries are beginning to feel the consequences of failing to integrate Muslim immigrants properly, to the point where second and third-generation immigrants hardly act different from first-generation immigrants. On the other hand, the United States has a very good track record of having immigrants assimilate.

 

[Beaniebon]

I agree with making an attempt to blend into a new culture. Don't go somewhere expecting that place to conform to you. For instance, I'm not about to go to rural Japan because I don't care for conservative values and strict gender roles. Don't go somewhere if you don't like how things work there, it doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, when it comes to immigration, it does take time to blend into a new place. Like, a grandmother who came to the US from Mexico when she was thirty will have grandchildren who hardly act different from a regular American. People who expect immigrants to immediately learn the language, attitudes, and nuances of another completely different culture are unrealistic.

 

[Sperglord Dante]

A year or two should be enough for a person of average intellect to learn a second language at least to point of communicating half decently. It pisses me off to hear stories about people who lived 2, 5 or 10 years in gringoland and only know a handful of english words because they hardly set foot out of the spic ghetto.

On the other hand, the United States has a very good track record of having immigrants assimilate

It took a while for the Italians to be assimilated and be recognized as white people. And it was hastened by the fact many of them who didn't feel quite American eventually returned to Italy.

 

[Tranhuviya]

Immigrants to America need to be:

1.) Loyal, follow our laws and serve our people, who you will be part of!
2.) Legal. To come here illegally, no matter how sad your situation, is not going to win you any sympathy points in my eyes. I don't think it should take 13 years or whatever retarded amount our do-nothing, complacent Congress has set, though.

That is all I ask of them.

 

[Mariposa Electrique]

On the other hand, the United States has a very good track record of having immigrants assimilate.

I have spoken to my SO a few times about this and he claims that this is not the truth. There are so many horrific stories from the US about rape, vehicular manslaughter, violence, and pedophilia from both legal and illegal immigrants. I am not saying it is all the immigrants, but it is on level with what you'd see in Europe. I disagree with immigration from a practical train of thought. We already have people in the Western world and devloped nations that need more care or assistance from the government but are not getting it.

The problem is that with immigration, you're not solving the problem, you are just spreading it. There is a reason the countries immigrants come from are crumbling...it is because of the people that enable that country's degradation. There are a lot of illegal immigrants that do want to make a better life and prosper and whatnot, but with the bad ones, you are effectively getting more criminals that want to lay around, do nothing, have children, break crimes, and collect benefits.
I am for compassion but not for stupidity or antiestablishmentarianism.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

Americans have been making the same arguments about immigration for about 400 years. Literally same exact arguments, "they're taking our jobs, they're all bad people, etc etc". You can find statements to that effect from Ben Franklin about the Germans, it's quite hilarious how little things have changed.

Given this basic historical trend I can only say that the people bitching about refugees or Hispanic migrant workers or whatever are totally full of shit and always will be. I might add that identitarian thinking is stupid and leads to being a shitty human being, another well known historical trend. Maybe it's just because I live in a very diverse place, but all those people on the nightly news complaining about "them" showing up around the corner and "our culture!" and shit just make me laugh. You be you, they be they, get the fuck over yourself, etc etc. I don't care if people "integrate" because I'm not arrogant enough to believe people need to live the same way as me.

Also our immigration policies are fucking stupid and I don't care if people break our laws. But of course that whole issue is a giant dogwhistle anyway.

 

[QI 541]

Depends on who you're importing.

Immigration didn't work out so great for Native Americans.

 

[Tranhuviya]

I don't care if people break our laws.

So, murder, theft and rape are OK, then?

 

[IV 445]

I understand that people think they are getting away from something bad (foreign wars) but if you don't make any plans when you enter another country, you're likely going to be bunking on the streets, thus making your situation just as bad or worse if you had stayed to begin with.

Plus the people in your host country have to clean up after you, take care of you, make sure there's no dangerous people in your group for their sake as well as your's....you get the point.

The only place I can think of where the government offers hot showers, safety, air conditioning, three hots and a cot are jails.

 

[Ruin]

Americans have been making the same arguments about immigration for about 400 years. Literally same exact arguments, "they're taking our jobs, they're all bad people, etc etc". You can find statements to that effect from Ben Franklin about the Germans, it's quite hilarious how little things have changed.

Given this basic historical trend I can only say that the people bitching about refugees or Hispanic migrant workers or whatever are totally full of shit and always will be. I might add that identitarian thinking is stupid and leads to being a shitty human being, another well known historical trend. Maybe it's just because I live in a very diverse place, but all those people on the nightly news complaining about "them" showing up around the corner and "our culture!" and shit just make me laugh. You be you, they be they, get the fuck over yourself, etc etc. I don't care if people "integrate" because I'm not arrogant enough to believe people need to live the same way as me.

Also our immigration policies are fucking stupid and I don't care if people break our laws. But of course that whole issue is a giant dogwhistle anyway.

Between this and the cheering on cop killing you've cultivated an impressively edgy persona. Are you Dante from the Devil May Cry series?

 

[I-chi]

Everybody else had to work to get accepted into this country, at some point or another; and the hardest part short of learning English is having to acknowledge that while your cultural identity is now second to the fact that you're an American and, therefore, as beholden to its people as the guy next to you; that badge isn't limited to any single race, political ideology (in most cases), theological beliefs, or thereof.

If you want to be American and still be a Muslim, that's perfectly fine; but your right to follow the influences of your beliefs end the moment it begins to negatively harm the people around you. If you refuse to respect the rights and differences of your peers while hiding behind your religion and cultural identity as a barrier to deflect any criticism; no amount of accusation or social justice is going to save your ass from getting the boot. Probably, that's a better long term benefit to your personal health as opposed to getting beaten or shot.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

Between this and the cheering on cop killing you've cultivated an impressively edgy persona. Are you Dante from the Devil May Cry series?

I don't know what that is because I'm not autistic

 

[Cosmos]

I don't care if people "integrate" because I'm not arrogant enough to believe people need to live the same way as me.

Because that attitude is totally working out great in places like Belgium and France, where large percentages of the Muslim population have formed ghettos that more closely resemble Afghanistan or Pakistan than any first world country.

Also, it's not "arrogant" to expect the people who chose to leave their home countries for another one to conform to that new country's expectations.

 

[Marvin]

Because that attitude is totally working out great in places like Belgium and France, where large percentages of the Muslim population have formed ghettos that more closely resemble Afghanistan or Pakistan than any first world country.

I think most people in this thread are conflating superficial differences with fundamentally incompatible differences. When you talk about ghettos that resemble shithole muslim countries, I think that 99% of what you're talking about is superficial. The 1% remaining is already handled by law enforcement and the justice system.

If we talk about italian neighborhoods or greek neighborhoods, the conversation changes dramatically. Sometimes people justify it by saying "well, they're western countries / they share our values / islam is incompatible with democracy / etc..." I think that's entirely bunk as far as your average voter should be concerned. You might as well be telling me about how the papists are incapable of legally swearing allegiance.

Also, it's not "arrogant" to expect the people who chose to leave their home countries for another one to conform to that new country's expectations.

I wouldn't say arrogant. But I bet most of the time, when people have detailed expectations for immigrants, those expectations are fucking stupid. And at that point, I don't really care that much.

Some reasonable expectations are: be polite, pay your taxes and tip your waiter. Outside of things like that, in an immigrant country like the US, no one should give a shit.

 

[AnOminous]

Some reasonable expectations are: be polite, pay your taxes and tip your waiter. Outside of things like that, in an immigrant country like the US, no one should give a shit.

Don't rape people, don't blow people up, don't "honor" murder your daughters because they got raped, act like a human being and not a fucking animal. These seem pretty minimal and I have no problem with them.

 

[Mariposa Electrique]

Depends on who you're importing.

Immigration didn't work out so great for Native Americans.

The problem is that human beings are not imports, which makes them highly unpredictable or volatile as such, and they are more likely to drain a nation of its wealth than add to it.
I think we should take the invasive species approach, if at least 50-60 percent of them are doing nothing but kicking their feet up and waiting for welfare, stealing, raping, or committing whatever crime they commit then none should be allowed into the country. It's as simple as that. Why should we discriminate across species lines, if one of them threatens to destroy or kill something you love, then it should be a no-brainer. I am sure that there are millions of animals that are suffering and have never committed a crime nor have they been a financial drain, yet we can't and don't try to save them all while turning our countries into K-9 capitals.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

Because that attitude is totally working out great in places like Belgium and France, where large percentages of the Muslim population have formed ghettos that more closely resemble Afghanistan or Pakistan than any first world country.

Also, it's not "arrogant" to expect the people who chose to leave their home countries for another one to conform to that new country's expectations.

I don't have any expectations. Most people don't. I think that's the flaw in your thinking, you think that French people (for example) all think the same and desire the same things. They don't. All the hubbub about burkinis kind of proves that. Would you believe that a lot of white as shit French people considered that an affront to their values? Because a lot of them did. So why do the anti-Muslim types exactly get to speak for the entirety of the French population? Who gets to decide what qualifies as "French values"? At best this attitude leads to a relatively small segment of the population abusing the power of the state to impose its values on people that don't share them. And that includes French people that don't share those values. What people do in their own lives is no business of the state, or anybody not involved in said life. To put it bluntly, your fear is fucking meaningless to me. You can hate Muslims and immigrants all you want, but the moment you tell the government to become some sort of cultural enforcer is when I start calling you a dick. Your right to swing your fist ends where another person's face begins.

As for "ghettos", the media blows shit out of proportion because scary brown people. In reality poverty and social marginalization is a bitch that produces some insane results the world over. There are neighborhoods in say, Poland, that are just as fucking miserable and there's not a single Muslim involved in that. If you drag a complex web of socio-economic problems down to that level you're just ignoring how complex reality is. And the world is complex. It is never not complex. People are individuals. They each have their own hopes, their dreams, beliefs, experiences, etc etc. When you lose sight of that fact and start attaching narratives you created to them you're just going down a path that leads to stupidity. The images we have of groups of people are often highly divergent from what each individual member of said group actually is in their day to day life.

So, long short, I don't give a shit if people "integrate" because even the people they're supposed to integrate with often aren't integrated with each other anyway. Or have you forgotten the fine French tradition of rioting en masse? Such cultural unity right there...

 

[Joan Nyan]

Immigrants from similar cultures who actually contribute to the economy and don't commit crimes can be okay I guess but even then letting in immigrants isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

[Lachlan Hunter McIntyre]

As long as it doesn't directly affect me, I don't give a shit.

 

[Nobody]

If immigrants take the time to learn about the country they go to, speak the language, contribute positively to the general economy without being a shitty racial statistic of some kind, and blend in with the culture already established here, then sure, by all means.

If immigrants are just going to come over, congregate together in a fixed area, essentially turn that area into a mini-version of the country they just emigrated from (complete with all of the negative qualities endemic to the previous country), then I don't support that. That is not immigration, that is annexation.