Iraq War Reflections -

  • Intermittent Denial of Service attack is causing downtime. Looks like a kiddie 5 min rental. Looking into some solutions.

Heimdallr

Sentry of Asgard
kiwifarms.net
What if the United States had never invaded Iraq?

On the surface it seems like a big mistake. Thousands (close to 1 million) Iraqis have died, trillions of dollars have been spent and the end result has been a ramshackled,decrepit semi democratic government coupled with ISIS, the worst organization on the planet.

Yet what would the alternative have been, leaving Hussein in power? The more I read, the less I am inclined to think the outcome would have been neutral, let alone good.

Saddam was probably the worst dictator/war criminal of my lifetime. He had used chemical weapons frequently, invaded and absorbed a sovereign nation and was a committed enemy of the United States. The Iranian Mullahs and Kim-Il Sung, bad though they are really were not at his level.

Given the type of person he was, I really doubt the premise many anti-war advocates have presented, that he would have been a stabilizing if brutal presence in the region and would work to our advantage.

I do think he was all kinds of crazy and was committed to developing WMDS. The only reason he did not have them at the time was because of the devastation of the first Gulf War and the crippling sanctions that were imposed by the UN.

In 2002-2003 the sanctions were close to being eroded completely and Saddam was committed to having them lifted. It is a known fact he had all kinds of terrible WMD in the 1980s and definitely had the people who knew how to make them. If we did not invade, we would have to look forward to him continuing in power, or one of his hideous sons taking the reigns at some level.

Where would we be today if Al Gore became president or GWB felt less inclined to invade Iraq? Could we have brought Saddam to heal? I do somehow doubt it.

I do believe it was false, the notion that Saddam/Bin Laden were polar opposites and would never ally with eachother. The secular foundation of Saddam's regime had been crumbling for away for years, and many of his officers were Islamic extremists themselves. Most of ISIS' leadership is composed of former Baathist officers/security agents anyhow.

Any ideas?
 
N

NG 070

Guest
kiwifarms.net
Hard to say.

Full disclosure, at the time, I kind of supported the Iraq War. I was young, naive, and stupid. I didn't really think to look at the bigger picture, and in all honesty, I don't remember why I supported it in the first place. But as the years went on, I began to see that it was becoming more and more of a bad idea in general. Especially with the toll of human life and the money spent on something that became a gigantic boondoggle in the worst possible way.

Thing is, I don't necessarily blame Obama for what's happened after Bush per se, in fairness Obama inherited an exceptionally crappy situation. However poorly he and his administration may or may not have handled our pulling out, I think no matter what he would've done, the region would've probably still ended up destabilized if we stayed a little longer, and I'm pretty certain something like ISIS would've sprung up no matter what.

Either way you spin it, the whole situation with the Iraq War was a lose-lose situation no matter which way you slice it.
 
H

HG 400

Guest
kiwifarms.net
The Iraq War was a mistake because America grossly underestimated the quality of its soldiers, who were substandard in all areas and failed to secure the area and ended up having to retreat and let ISIS take over everything. It's good we got rid of Saddam and the strategic goals were sound, it's just a shame that the American servicemen weren't good enough to keep control of the area due to their poor training and general incompetence.
 

DerSneedstrom

Shocked Mormon of Color, pronouns are fuck/you
kiwifarms.net
The issue was that the Iraqi people had no loyalty or reason to support the interim government. The majority of their experienced generals and soldiers abandoned the country once the US disbanded the Royal Guard (and promptly became mercenaries loyal to the highest bidder, which was usually ISIS) and, despite America providing weapons and training to new soldiers, they really didn't have the loyalty or fortitude to defend a new government that never gave them confidence. That is why ISIS took over the majority of Iraq with little to no resistance, whatsoever.
 

Heimdallr

Sentry of Asgard
kiwifarms.net
My main objection to liberals is that they often don't seriously examine their positions, or ask themselves hard questions about whether their veiws are even justifiable.

I pose this question to them: How would the Iraq/UN confrontation have been solved peacefully?

People do forget that in the Clinton/GW Bush years (well before 9/11) there was a massive international confrontation with Saddam to get rid of his WMDS (or basically prove he was complying with UN regulations regarding them), and getting him to to abide by a minimum standard of decency to become a normal member of the international community

The UN never demanded that he make his country a democracy, or grant religious and gender equality. It merely demanded among other things that he 1. Renounce terrorism. 2. Renounce genocide. 3. Give up his territorial claims to Kuwait. 4. Give up his goals for WMDS and 5. More or less honor the Gulf war ceasefire.

Up until the 2003 invasion, Saddam refused to do even one of these things. How would the Saddam confrontation have ended if there was no war? Could he have been peacefully convinced to become a normal part of the international community?
 

Heimdallr

Sentry of Asgard
kiwifarms.net
Speaking of long dead empires, it is a shame the Austrian Empire fell. If it had existed during Hitler's rise it would have been rather difficult for him to conquer all those countreis (Austria, Czechoslovkai, Hungary etc.) if they were all banded together.
 

ICametoLurk

SCREW YOUR OPTICS, I'M GOING IN
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Speaking of long dead empires, it is a shame the Austrian Empire fell. If it had existed during Hitler's rise it would have been rather difficult for him to conquer all those countreis (Austria, Czechoslovkai, Hungary etc.) if they were all banded together.
Nigga there would be no Hitler if there was an Austrian Empire.
 

Forever Sunrise

Avatar? I don't need no stinkin' avatar.
kiwifarms.net
Nigga there would be no Hitler if there was an Austrian Empire.

Hitler was Austrian. Considering that if it had survived it probably would've been hit just as hard by war reparations as Germany was, there's a not-inconsiderable chance Hitler would just have risen to power there instead. Though this is admittedly just a hypothesis.
 

Heimdallr

Sentry of Asgard
kiwifarms.net
Hitler was Austrian. Considering that if it had survived it probably would've been hit just as hard by war reparations as Germany was, there's a not-inconsiderable chance Hitler
would just have risen to power there instead. Though this is admittedly just a hypothesis.

How could he? Austria Hungary was a Monarchy not a democracy. Hitler could not have risen to power because there were no elections. Even if there were elections, the population would never vote for him. How could a Germanic supremacist win over a population of Germans, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Czechs and Jews among many others?

Germany proper was the only place where Hitler could have arisen and he hated the "mongrel" Austro-Hungarian Empire anyhow
 
W

WW 635

Guest
kiwifarms.net
The Iraq War was a mistake because America grossly underestimated the quality of its soldiers, who were substandard in all areas and failed to secure the area and ended up having to retreat and let ISIS take over everything. It's good we got rid of Saddam and the strategic goals were sound, it's just a shame that the American servicemen weren't good enough to keep control of the area due to their poor training and general incompetence.
The incompetence went all the way up that chain...
 
Top