Is gender identity real? -

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Mars Attacks!

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I'm going to powerlevel slightly in this thread, but it's relevant to the topic and my own experience has led me to believe that gender identity doesn't actually exist. Let's look at the popular definitions of gender identity, first:

1. Gender roles ("I'm a girl because I like pink." "I'm genderfluid because I like dresses some days and suits other days.")
This one is obviously bullshit. Gender norms aren't innately part of being male or female. They vary between cultures and time, a girl doesn't stop being a girl because she decided not to wear makeup that day, drag queens dress like women but they aren't female or trans women. It's so weird to me that a lot of trans people denounce gender roles, while at the same time upholding them to the point of believing that someone who doesn't completely conform to male or female stereotypes is a third gender.

2. The presence of gender dysphoria ("I have a male brain in a female body." "I'm trans because having a penis feels wrong.")
Here's where things get a little more complicated. There have been studies done on brain sex in trans people that have found that their brains have more in common with the sex they identify as. However, other neurological research shows that brains have plasticity, meaning their shape is not innate and changes depending on other physical or environmental factors. I've been on hormones and can anecdotally tell you that the way I think and feel changed a lot. Even if a person isn't on hormones, if they are persistently living their life as if they were the opposite sex, their brain could potentially change shape and function to reflect that.
Dysphoria is the feeling that your body or parts of it are "wrong," which in trans people can manifest as discomfort with or hatred of sexed traits such as broad shoulders or an hourglass shape. But how do you differentiate between a trans man who wants his breasts reduced/removed and a cis woman who wants the same thing? How about a man who wants plastic surgery to make his face look more feminine versus a trans woman who wants the same thing? What about someone who has dysphoria but chooses to find ways other than transition to cope with it? The only difference between these people, and the only definition of gender identity left, is whether or not they "identify" as trans.

3. Identity ("This is just the way I feel, man.")
The problem with this definition is that it's circular. "I am X because I identify as X, which I identify as because I am X." It's essentially a faith-based definition. It can't be proven or disproven because it's a feeling that you just "know." Similar to how a religious person can just "know" that God is looking out for them despite having no evidence.

Sex is a different matter because it actually exists; trans activists love to use intersex people as a token to prove that it doesn't, but they are a tiny minority. Saying sex isn't real because of intersex people is like saying that because some people are born blind, it's wrong to say that humans can see. I consider myself gender critical/gender abolitionist, and I feel like the thoughts I have are not that far off from popular gender theory. I agree that the binary system of assigning behaviors to sexes isn't a good thing. The difference lies in believing that the intangible concept of gender exists, and that every gender needs a label. I don't think creating more "gender boxes" solves anything, society should just drop the expectation of things being "for men" or "for women" except when it's actually relevant based on their biology.

Thoughts?
 

lurk_moar

Certified Lab Tech and Fatphobe
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Sex and gender aren't even the same thing. Sex is between your legs, and gender is between your ears.

I've always been a tomboy. I would say that I'm more gender fluid switching between femme, demigirl, and androgynous. I am certainly not a cis female. I will stay the sex that I am even though I sometimes suffer from dysphoria especial the concerning the breasts and penis envy.
 

Alec Benson Leary

Creator of Asperchu
Christorical Figure
kiwifarms.net
Boy
Girl
Mentally ill
Other than that you are just trying to cover up you fall under option 3.
Sometimes I think we spend so much time here looking at the extreme cases of insanity that are our lolcows, it can be easy to lose perspective of the fact that not everyone in the world must be either "normal" or batshit.
 

Intelligent Calcium

Humble Fantabulist
kiwifarms.net
Gender isn't real so far as it only exists in people's minds. There can't be an objective truth to it, because we can't observe it. But it's still "real" to us and the influence it has on people is what can be observed.
Like art, the meaning of gender can change a lot depending on what society you live in and when the society changes, so can the meaning of art or gender. However, both aren't completely disconnected from reality. Art is linked to the natural sense of aesthetics human beings possess and gender is linked to biological sex. Just like art as a concept is flexible enough to encompass many different styles and tastes, gender can come in many different varieties. You can be a feminine man or a masculine woman and that should have no impact on your value as a human being. I don't know enough about intersex people to comment on them.

I'm on board with people transitioning if presenting as the gender linked to their biological sex prevents them from finding happiness in life, as long as they do it under the supervision of trained medical experts. I think as long as the experts gave their okay and the person is well-adjusted mentally, it is only polite to go along, since for them it's either this or a life of unhappiness at this point.
I'm absolutely not on board with people "changing" their gender on a whim to keep up with current trends and to have an excuse to yell at people for misgendering them.

These days, it seems a lot of people who have completely unrelated mental health issues self-diagnose and then brute force their way towards cheap hormones and a chob job, only to find out that this wasn't the magical band-aid they have been looking for. I think these people should be protected from themselves, but the current political climate is very quick to label this type of concern as transphobia, when those people where never trans to begin with. 5 years or so ago they would have self-diagnosed as autistic instead, which is a lot easier to come back from.

And this is just a personal observation, but on average FtMs seem way better adjusted than MtFs.
 

Ntwadumela

That takes care of the cremation..
True & Honest Fan
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Honestly? There's only male and female. Any more than that and you're an attention whore/special snowflake.

Roles are given to gender largely because of biological differences: For example, most men tend to be stronger than most women, so many are encouraged to engage in sports that help their strength. There are exceptions to either sex, but they are not the norm and very few in comparison.

As a human "cis" male I'm pretty confident and proud of myself and I support traditional male roles for myself and others. If you're different though I keep an open mind.
 

aerostar88

all around me are millennial faces
kiwifarms.net
Sex and gender aren't even the same thing. Sex is between your legs, and gender is between your ears.

I've always been a tomboy. I would say that I'm more gender fluid switching between femme, demigirl, and androgynous. I am certainly not a cis female. I will stay the sex that I am even though I sometimes suffer from dysphoria especial the concerning the breasts and penis envy.
I relate with this a lot. I mean as a gay woman, my androgynous nature can just look like a typical dyke, and I'm relatively fine with that. I don't feel very much like a woman but it isn't a thing that bothers me much anymore.
I also have an unrelated condition that makes me more appear more masculine in a few ways, so that definitely doesn't help my femininity. I entertained the idea of myself being trans, so I spoke to a sexologist for a few sessions. It cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had and I ultimately decided against it. I'm just me. No labels, no bullshit, no bawwing for persecution points. Just me being me.
Sometimes I wonder if the idea of being perceived as a "special snowflake" has anything to do with my hesitation about anything trans-related. Regardless, I respect anyone's decision to transition if it positively impacts their mental state. My decision was entirely that, it didn't feel right for my situation.

And lastly, as most on here have probably said, the troons we see here are in no way indicative of your average person with dysphoria.
 

Megapiss

True & Honest Fan
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The concept of gender dysphoria doesn't really make sense to me. Trans people seem to believe that everyone has a powerful innate sense of gender, and that having a body that doesn't match is a fundamentally disturbing experience. But this doesn't seem to be the case for anyone besides trannies. Normal people don't wake up every day and think "I am a man, look at my dick and my hairy chest, time to exemplify my masculinity by drinking beer and watching sports". Internally, people view themselves as people first, not men or women.

If I woke up with different genitals, it would be really inconvenient, but it wouldn't cause an existential crisis and I definitely wouldn't try to replace my normal, functioning genitals with a disturbing facsimile of something else. Likewise, there are many cis people whose body doesn't really match their gender. Women with manfaces and flat chests, and shrimpy babyfaced twinks. This causes them some distress because people find them unattractive, but they don't have the astronomical suicide rates of trannies, and they don't demand taxpayer funded boob jobs or steroids.

I don't buy trans people's claims of having 'a woman's brain in a man's body' (or vice versa) any more than I would believe an anorexic saying they have 'a skeleton's brain in a human's body'. It just seems like a sort of obsessive neurosis.
 

Kled

Don't you bite me again!
kiwifarms.net
I relate with this a lot. I mean as a gay woman, my androgynous nature can just look like a typical dyke, and I'm relatively fine with that. I don't feel very much like a woman but it isn't a thing that bothers me much anymore.

This is me as well (minus the gay). I've always been a tomboy so when I continued seeing tomboy as either being a dyke or trans then it rubbed me the wrong way. I've been feeling crappy for years about myself because my voice is rather husky and has been since I was a kid. I used to get teased for it a lot and up until recently I've just accepted that I'm probably some fucking weirdo.

With gender, it's all a societal deal. It's just that most societies have the same exact definition of what a man and a woman is and should be/do. Really thinking about it, it's not a bad thing if it's not rigidly enforced. A man can be a caregiver and not be a breadwinner and a woman can be a breadwinner and a caregiver as well. Things change over time and yes, rigid gender roles should be broken but nothing overly shattered. I don't want kids, its a personal preference and I don't want to be married. Personal preferences should be considered over some rigid system that's considered outdated. Maybe it's just me, I don't like a lot of change. I think as long as there's a choice in the matter, then everything's fine.

The whole 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. gender thing is an entirely new can of worms. That's just people trying to be special and stick it to everyone who "conforms". It's best to ignore said people.
 

Alec Benson Leary

Creator of Asperchu
Christorical Figure
kiwifarms.net
The concept of gender dysphoria doesn't really make sense to me. Trans people seem to believe that everyone has a powerful innate sense of gender, and that having a body that doesn't match is a fundamentally disturbing experience. But this doesn't seem to be the case for anyone besides trannies. Normal people don't wake up every day and think "I am a man, look at my dick and my hairy chest, time to exemplify my masculinity by drinking beer and watching sports". Internally, people view themselves as people first, not men or women.

If I woke up with different genitals, it would be really inconvenient, but it wouldn't cause an existential crisis and I definitely wouldn't try to replace my normal, functioning genitals with a disturbing facsimile of something else. Likewise, there are many cis people whose body doesn't really match their gender. Women with manfaces and flat chests, and shrimpy babyfaced twinks. This causes them some distress because people find them unattractive, but they don't have the astronomical suicide rates of trannies, and they don't demand taxpayer funded boob jobs or steroids.

I don't buy trans people's claims of having 'a woman's brain in a man's body' (or vice versa) any more than I would believe an anorexic saying they have 'a skeleton's brain in a human's body'. It just seems like a sort of obsessive neurosis.
I disagree with this. I think you experience about ten thousand little feelings in the back of your mind on a daily basis. Those feelings get reaffirmed by what you see in the mirror and how other people interact with you, so you never give it any thought beyond that.

Think of it like sexual attraction - I'll let myself get distracted every time I see a good looking lady. It doesn't override whatever else I'm thinking about and I still go about my day like normal. But your brain isn't an IBM. It's thinking about a ton of shit all the time even when you're not deliberately choosing to. My being heterosexual doesn't mean "okay my homework is done, now I will choose to go think about women".

I mean, christ, people who devote years of their lives (all of which includes extensive therapy) and pursue complex surgery aren't all making it up out of nowhere. I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness, they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago. We see a lot of cows on this forum who are crazy enough to ruin their lives in the pursuit of attention and ego, but if you think our cow pen is a representative sample of the population at large you need to take a break from the forum for a day and go have a drink at a bar or something.
 

Mars Attacks!

ack/acks/ackself
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I mean, christ, people who devote years of their lives (all of which includes extensive therapy) and pursue complex surgery aren't all making it up out of nowhere. I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness, they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago. We see a lot of cows on this forum who are crazy enough to ruin their lives in the pursuit of attention and ego, but if you think our cow pen is a representative sample of the population at large you need to take a break from the forum for a day and go have a drink at a bar or something.
I don't think people are making it up. They genuinely believe what they're saying, whether they stick with transition or not. There's a growing number of people detransitioning though and they get pushed out of their communities because it hurts the narrative. Sometimes people do transition to avoid other mental issues.
I've identified as FTM since I was a teenager. I had the typical "trans childhood;" didn't fit in with the girls, wanted to be a boy as long as I can remember, dysphoria, the whole shebang. It's been the greater part of a decade since I transitioned and the whole time, I believed I was doing the right thing and self-actualizing the person I was meant to be. But over the past few months I've started to realize that even though I have a weird mental condition that makes me feel like my body is wrong, it doesn't really follow that I'm actually supposed to be the opposite sex. I can't "identify as a man" because honestly, I'm not a man, never have been, never will be. If I were to describe my gender identity now I think "agender" would be the closest thing, but I don't want to use that either because that's still working within the framework of gender. I'm learning to accept that I'm a female (albeit a very butchy one) but I don't "identify as a woman" either because as I've said, identifying as a gender doesn't make sense. I can only "identify" as myself, who happens to be female. That doesn't say anything about my personality or what I like, it's simply something that is. I wouldn't say I regret what I've done, but I know I'm not being authentic by continuing to live this way.
There aren't a lot of safeguards to prevent people who will decide transition wasn't right for them from accessing it. I don't know how there could be either, since there's practically no difference in attitude between someone who will be happy with transition and someone who won't. No therapist I've seen or gender group I've been to encourages any form of questioning; if someone says they're trans, they automatically are, and if you encourage them to explore that feeling instead of just accepting it at face value that makes you a transphobe.
 

Sperglord Dante

Useless Guato
kiwifarms.net
You got a stats on that figure?

Depending on your criteria for what's sufficiently away from man or woman they're as comon as 0.1%.

Many of those don't identify as intersex though. They go through with their lives with their 'assigned' sex just fine and only realize they're odd when they can't have children or unrelated medical tests point it out.

People who have some really, really weird shit going on between their legs who challenge the man/woman paradigm are extremely uncommon.
 

about:blank

Blank Page
True & Honest Fan
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I believe gender dysphoria exists, but not on the scale it is being practiced in liberal arts colleges. I'm absolutely certain that more than 95% of the time they're a combination of mentally ill, special snowflakes, or self-hating whites trying to shed whatever privilege they may have so that they can join the minorities in declaring war on "cis white scum"

The 5% that are actually legit is likely due a disorder of, or an imbalance of hormones within the endocrine system.
 

Alec Benson Leary

Creator of Asperchu
Christorical Figure
kiwifarms.net
No therapist I've seen or gender group I've been to encourages any form of questioning; if someone says they're trans, they automatically are, and if you encourage them to explore that feeling instead of just accepting it at face value that makes you a transphobe.
That's a good counterpoint. The crusade to protect everyone's "right to be right" means it's potentially political/career suicide to ask questions that don't fit with the skeleton narrative.
 

shibbolethal

we're in bat country now
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How come there seem to be a million more trannies now than in the past? it sounds like a trend in a lot of cases.

there were always trannies. it's just that nowadays it's somewhat more socially acceptable, and there are more resources. it's just like how in the 1800s you never hear about any gay people. they were around, but a ton of them were in the closet back then, or didn't even realize that they were gay. now that there's more awareness, people start to understand their own condition! gender dysphoria is a medical condition that can be treated in the same way that any other medical condition can be treated.

granted, there are "special snowflakes", but it's also a matter of the way society is changing. being trans isn't actually fun or cool, and transtrenders give real trans people (who are actually going through hrt and spending thousands of dollars on surgeries to improve their quality of life) a bad name.
 
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