Is the STEM push resulting in more failsons? -

emo goff

its too damn sunny for darkmode
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i went for stem because i watched too much Dave ramsey and thought being an IT/coding fag was the ticket to being successful. Well i graduated and did well and all that but guess what, i cant get hired because the decent internships are all in coast cities and i cant move there. And the normal jobs want you to have sixty years of experience and be a specialist in every programming and software known to man, thanks to pajeet hiring practices. and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really. at least im not in debt because i was a studyhard autist in HS and got funding.

it really sucks to bust your ass for 4 years doing everything "right" and then become a failson anyway :story:
 

SickNastyBastard

The Alpha Troon: Order 66 Pisstroopers
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My problem was that I just wasn't interested in school. I generally not interested in the work. I didn't like college either. I am a super unconventional learner. I either have to pursue it out of interest or know the endgame. School doesn't really cater to any of that. So I decided I just don't want to do it anymore

I started my own project to get me to a place I would like to be.
I have learned way more with this kind of approach than having 5 classes where 3 of the teachers are there as a meal ticket. No thx jeff.

I would have liked to see an emphasis on project orientated work instead of the classical approach for my own purposes. I would also like to see more emphasis placed on personal or passion projects with HR than anything else. For some reason HR thinks that the years I did at huge companies are more valuable. This is pretty far from the truth, at least in my experience. It is dull, boring copypaste work in general. In my professional work, the best job was being a consultant. Yea, you can get some shit projects. But, if you get something cool you will always carry that with you.

I think there should be a much bigger push for project based curriculum. Giving a vague outline on what the project needs to do really kicks the critical thinking and creativity of the students and it also requires them to understand the concepts in the arena of practical use. But that is what would have been the best approach for people like me.

Past that, I don't fully believe the concept that people just can't learn learn something. My software instructor was hands down the best teacher I have ever had. He was able to teach me complex subjects extremely well. From that experience I really took on the mentality that I can learn, I need the right explanation. Its discouraging to people to have one bad experience then assume they are bad at something because they didn't fit in the edu system .


i went for stem because i watched too much Dave ramsey and thought being an IT/coding fag was the ticket to being successful. Well i graduated and did well and all that but guess what, i cant get hired because the decent internships are all in coast cities and i cant move there. And the normal jobs want you to have sixty years of experience and be a specialist in every programming and software known to man, thanks to pajeet hiring practices. and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really. at least im not in debt because i was a studyhard autist in HS and got funding.

it really sucks to bust your ass for 4 years doing everything "right" and then become a failson anyway :story:
Dude, I know your pain. Its such a fucking time sink. I literally told this one company that I can spent 27 hours in three days to study topics people build 20 careers on to then have my aptitude be based on a 30 minute test is ridiculous and I have no motivation to do it. I just can't do the bombastic interview processes some company's have. I don't need two interviews prior to an 8 hour interview with a 1 hour lunch where I constantly was being assessed. What really gets me pissy is when I have to explain this to someone who is oblivious to the process. Don't have an opinion of technical interviews unless you have actual experience with them.
 
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Aqua Panda

I've seen horrors… horrors that you've seen.
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I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.

Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like you're unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.

Trades are absolutely a viable option that we as a society need to push more. Especially since academia demands higher end mathematics for most sciences. (And beyond basic Algerba, I've never needed the bloated higher requirements my university demanded. But they gotta tack in as much extra courses as possible to get more guaranteed student loan money from the government.) The harsh truth is that a lot of people won't be able to handle it and effectively condemning people to menial retail work is completely ass backwards and will end up wasting a generation of viable middle class workers.

The sad shit is that we are already seeing this with the middle class on a scary downward trend and worker visa abuse bringing in foreign workers when the job really should go to a domestic citizen.
 
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emo goff

its too damn sunny for darkmode
kiwifarms.net
I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.

Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like your unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.

Trades are absolutely a viable option that we as a society need to push more. Especially since academia demands higher end mathematics for most sciences. (And beyond basic Algerba, I've never needed the bloated higher requirements my university demanded. But they gotta tack in as much extra courses as possible to get more guaranteed student loan money from the government.) The harsh truth is that a lot of people won't be able to handle it and effectively condemning people to menial retail work is completely ass backwards and will end up wasting a generation of viable middle class workers.

The sad shit is that we are already seeing this with the middle class on a scary downward trend and worker visa abuse bringing in foreign workers when the job really should go to a domestic citizen.
I agree the whole internship bullshit needs to end. companies should suck it up and employ new people and give them a training period or something because not all of us can get the time, transportation or nepotism to drive up to the shiny city buildings every day for free labor (ahem, ~experience~) while doing 18 credit hour semesters.

it was real fun hearing my classmates talk about "just network dude, just get your resume out there dude" while they intern at their daddy's friend's company and have a new car and paid-for apartment. but i guess i'm just bitter lol :story:
 

Unassuming Local Guy

Friendly and affectionate
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STEM glut is just like any other glut. It makes it harder for the weak to survive and easier for the strong. The worse the glut, the bigger the skill divide.

Let's say the entire electrical engineer workforce has 1000 people. If we arrange them from 0 to 100, where 100 is the most competent, you'll see that, just like almost any metric for a given population, the vast majority are going to fall between, say, 20 and 80. Almost all of them, in fact.

The fact that the entire workforce has only 1000 people means there's a job slot for all of them. Even the 0s are getting jobs, because most if not all companies think that anything is better than nothing. They are wrong.

Now let's say the size of the workforce is 1,000,000,000. There are way more EEs than jobs out there for them. What happens? Companies start picking engineers off the right side of the bell curve and slowly work their way down, stopping once the slots are all filled. Given that we have a billion engineers looking for employment, this is probably going to happen once they get to the low 80s of competence. Nobody anywhere near the bottom will ever get work, while the people near the top are in such high demand they can set their own prices.

The only time this doesn't hold true is when companies don't give half a fuck about the result and just want to save money. That's where H1B workers come in. I don't think anyone, no matter how woke, would argue that the average H1B worker is even remotely as skilled as a domestic worker, and that's not even taking into account the language barrier, cultural barriers, and the mess of red tape that is international hiring.

Thing is, you don't want to work for these companies. They don't want you unless you're willing to work for minimum or near minimum wage. If every H1B suddenly died tonight, they still wouldn't be knocking on your door because you want a living wage, and they're not going to pay it. They'd sooner have their entire company run by 19 year old interns, because at least they don't have to pay them.

Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother. Find another job. You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.

It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college. Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level. There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.
 

DumbDude42

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It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college. Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level. There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.
working for small business aka doing janitor or cleaning work isnt what you get a fucking tech degree for, and career wise it's a worthless dead-end too
working for small business in any actual tech related position? maybe if you live in LA, otherwise good fucking luck finding anything lol
freelancing? without a double digit year count of relevant job experience? might as well try making a living from playing the lottery
and dont even get me started on contracting gigs, that shit is the same situation as freelancing except ten times rarer and harder to get
 

Syaoran Li

Commie Punks Fuck Off!
True & Honest Fan
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It's a great ideal to have your kids gain discipline the thing is that often kids in disciplinarian households tend to just end up developing authority issues and resentment later on I know it's the common idea that they'll learn to appreciate it later on but that just isn't what always happens
This is very true, and is one of the reasons why I think advocating for a return to "traditionalism" is the worst thing that you can do if you want to counter Woke Leftism, no matter how many times pseudo-intellectual (((traditionalist))) faggots like Nick Fuentes and The Distributist go "hurr durr what are we conserving?" or rant about "muh degeneracy" like an autistic Cotton Mather

A lot of the most batshit insane SJW's I've met usually came from disciplinarian households, usually of a traditionalist bent since the ones I know all grew up in Bible Belt redneck Appalachia.

The "Mom and Dad were strict but I learned to appreciate it later on" is a lot more rare than most people think, and it's mostly a phenomenon that I've mostly seen happen with Boomer and Generation X types who grew up in liberal blue states or the more secular-leaning purple states.

Millennials and Early Zoomers who grew up in strict households are almost always the living embodiment of the "Fuck You Dad" SJW wokester meme, especially if they grew up in the Bible Belt.

Those fedora-tipping atheist douchebags happened for a reason, they didn't just materialize out of nowhere. Same goes for the SJW hateboner for anything remotely Christian in nature.

Really, I think there's a multitude of factors that piled up over time and led to the failed generation we have today.
 
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SickNastyBastard

The Alpha Troon: Order 66 Pisstroopers
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Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother. Find another job. You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.
I don't recommend this. The multi year gaps of the technical employment will negatively affect you. The SJW's aren't going anywhere anyways, their just infiltrating and shitting up AI now instead of doing more to the massive fag pit of JS.

It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college. Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level. There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.
I've never encountered that kind of mentality.
My experience is that big companies (fortune 500) are boring pigeon holes unless you do crazy concept design, you're generally copy pasting existing code that needs to be repurposed/refactored while dealing with turbo-sped DBA's and product teams. Slow and steady, but if you get comfortable you get pigeon holed and might see your relevancy go poof when some new datascience kids come around looking to make a name for themselves. I didn't find it challenging or fulfilling

The contract jobs generally are indian boiler rooms. Being a contractor can fucking blow too with the fact that the company could be implementing real retarded stuff and you have no say other than "got it". Building a solid technical resume with contracts can be hard. I don't include some because it wasn't pertinent to anything and I was basically the scape goat of any bad implementation. And if project wraps up early or shit, they'll give you a wave while you pack your shit. I didn't like the tech interview time sink before and I don't like it now. having to do it multiple times a year would be a terrible inevitability.

Small businesses that do software generally have a start-up atmosphere. I love that shit and the camaraderie, but you get burned the fuck out as scope creep and technical debt ravage your angus. I never saw it as beneath me as I saw it as a white knuckle ride going full speed on fat lines of coke.

Medium sized companies (consulting firms) is kind of a sweet spot. You aren't always doing pigeon hole work, and sometimes it can kids ass. It doesn't have the full throttle of a small company and you don't have to constantly be dealt with since the hiring managers can usually place you on another project.

In all honesty, people are better off now to build their own passion project. This shows so much more ability of an individual. I wouldn't do contracts unless its necessary or you're doing those HUGE $120/hour contracts. I just plain don't like the environment of contracting.
 

Crunchy Leaf

cronch
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I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.

Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like your unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.

Trades are absolutely a viable option that we as a society need to push more. Especially since academia demands higher end mathematics for most sciences. (And beyond basic Algerba, I've never needed the bloated higher requirements my university demanded. But they gotta tack in as much extra courses as possible to get more guaranteed student loan money from the government.) The harsh truth is that a lot of people won't be able to handle it and effectively condemning people to menial retail work is completely ass backwards and will end up wasting a generation of viable middle class workers.

The sad shit is that we are already seeing this with the middle class on a scary downward trend and worker visa abuse bringing in foreign workers when the job really should go to a domestic citizen.
I don’t know how to feel about the ‘join a trade’ advice. Someone who drops out of college because their grades are bad from doing nothing but smoking weed and playing vidya isn’t going to become a great carpenter, because they don’t have a work ethic. I’m from somewhere with strong labor unions, so the pay is good, but that also means they aren’t going to let just anybody into apprenticeships.

There are middle class jobs that don’t require being good at math, but they do require being good at talking to people, writing, or both.
 

The Last Stand

I need more gin.
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I learned the hard way that pursuing a CS or IT degree isn't as easy or as fun as they say it is.

Programming isn't for everybody. I thought IT would just be knowing how to use programs and troubleshooting. It IS hard, particularly the Math and coding classes.

Just because you THINK have an interest in computers, that doesn't always translate well in the CS field. Your "interest" may be elementary at best.
 

AnimeGirlConnoisseur

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you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.

about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.
I agree with you, but I think one thing you're forgetting here is that highschool and undergraduate life is completely different. Highschool students are always put under scrutiny and their life is basically micromanaged in many ways (especially if they are involved extra-curricular activities). Undergraduate life is completely different. When you go from highschool to college you are basically going from an environment where you have ask permission and fill out paperwork to take a piss to an environment where you can just skip class and nobody can do a thing about it. I think that whole process trips some people up.
I've been thinking about this with the BLM movement.

One of the big arguments is that black men don't have enough opportunities to go to college.

While that CAN be true and is to an extent, that doesn't solve the biggest problem. I can tell you from personal experience that I was constantly bullied by black men, mostly being called a sellout or one of dem smart niggas (Carlton was my personal favorite).

Creating opportunities for black men to go to college doesn't matter if you don't solve the key underlying issue that black men don't WANT to go to college; that being booksmart to large sections of the black community is a giant negative.
Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder. Why do some Black people think like this?
 
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DumbDude42

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Why do some Black people think like this?
it's the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon combined with resentment fueled by envy and jealousy, and a big ego. and it's not just blacks, you see the same mindset in underclass populations of all races, they just use other words than "acting white" for it.

if i had to name it, i'd call it antisocial culture or criminal culture. it's the same mindset that creates attitudes like 'snitches get stitches'.
if you want to see that culture in action, look how prison populations or street gangs behave. and i don't mean "look at the crimes they commit" but look at how they socialize, what values they uphold, what rules they follow and enforce.
 

Crunchy Leaf

cronch
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I agree with you, but I think one thing you're forgetting here is that highschool and undergraduate life is completely different. Highschool students are always put under scrutiny and their life is basically micromanaged in many ways (especially if they are involved extra-curricular activities). Undergraduate life is completely different. When you go from highschool to college you are basically going from an environment where you have ask permission and fill out paperwork to take a piss to an environment where you can just skip class and nobody can do a thing about it. I think that whole process trips some people up.

Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder. Why do some Black people think like this?
There’s a lot of people who aren’t prepared for independence, and that you should go to class even if there will be no immediate consequences for not doing so. It’s a lack of self control.
 

Salubrious

Feelin' Healthy
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Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder. Why do some Black people think like this?
As @DumbDude42 said, a lot of it is people being upset because "you think they're better than them." Crabs in a bucket. Somehow, flashing around wads of cash is different; probably because they think they can take some off of you. I can't give out IQ points to people.

The contract jobs generally are indian boiler rooms. Being a contractor can fucking blow too with the fact that the company could be implementing real retarded stuff and you have no say other than "got it". Building a solid technical resume with contracts can be hard. I don't include some because it wasn't pertinent to anything and I was basically the scape goat of any bad implementation. And if project wraps up early or shit, they'll give you a wave while you pack your shit. I didn't like the tech interview time sink before and I don't like it now. having to do it multiple times a year would be a terrible inevitability.

...

In all honesty, people are better off now to build their own passion project. This shows so much more ability of an individual. I wouldn't do contracts unless its necessary or you're doing those HUGE $120/hour contracts. I just plain don't like the environment of contracting.
I had a woman contact me about a contracting job and was absolutely shocked that I wanted to be paid weekly/biweekly.

Another thing you have to worry about contract jobs is them not paying you "until it's done" and then the job is never done due to feature creep, them just not making up their minds, or them just not wanting to pay you so they put it in limbo.
 

Real Fakeman

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working for small business aka doing janitor or cleaning work isnt what you get a fucking tech degree for, and career wise it's a worthless dead-end too
working for small business in any actual tech related position? maybe if you live in LA, otherwise good fucking luck finding anything lol
I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.

I often hear people complain that there are no jobs in their area, even with a fancy education. Well, move! Opportunity isn't always next door. 100+ years ago people moved from Europe to America in droves so they could till the dirt! But now, many people seem to be unwilling to move to "flyover country". Maybe because they need to be within a 5 minute walking distance from the weed shop and comic book store.
 

Daddy's Little Kitten

Wipe my ass daddy~
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I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.

I often hear people complain that there are no jobs in their area, even with a fancy education. Well, move! Opportunity isn't always next door. 100+ years ago people moved from Europe to America in droves so they could till the dirt! But now, many people seem to be unwilling to move to "flyover country". Maybe because they need to be within a 5 minute walking distance from the weed shop and comic book store.
Not everyone can just pack up and go.
 

abacussedout

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Not everyone can just pack up and go without giving something up in return. Barring paraplegia or another outlier pretty much everyone is capable at any given time of moving elsewhere, but it often goes untried because it's unpleasant, moreso if you have to drag others (spouse, kids, etc.) with you.

Where I'm from everyone expects to have to move to find their first job and most do, and it's sad saying goodbye and it's awkward and uncomfortable and a little frighting at first, but then years later when you're more experienced you can leverage that and return and compete if you really want to, and have some diversified life experience as a bonus. And the people that don't move for whatever reason, lack of discipline/courage most often, usually end up quite poor and miserable and opine that they should have left back in the day, but now they're stuck in a pattern just continue until they die poorly. Which is sadder than anything that comes from moving to find a job.
 

Harvey Danger

getting tired of this whole internet thing
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it's the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon combined with resentment fueled by envy and jealousy, and a big ego. and it's not just blacks, you see the same mindset in underclass populations of all races, they just use other words than "acting white" for it.

if i had to name it, i'd call it antisocial culture or criminal culture. it's the same mindset that creates attitudes like 'snitches get stitches'.
if you want to see that culture in action, look how prison populations or street gangs behave. and i don't mean "look at the crimes they commit" but look at how they socialize, what values they uphold, what rules they follow and enforce.
Bring up "acting white" in front of the wrong people, and prepare to get an earful about white supremacist myths. Even though it's not a myth, it's a well-documented cultural attitude that sprang up around the time of busing and integration in the 1960s.

I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.
The dirty little secret of IT is that we've had a glut of workers since 2001. You absolutely can not plan on getting an entry level job any more.

If anyone reading this is currently in college, whether CS or IT or IS or "business computing" or whatever they call it now: my big advice is code multiple projects on your own. You can not go into a job interview with just a degree; you need a degree, a CV, and a portfolio. (Class projects aren't enough, unless you went and enhanced them on your own after the class was done.)

Even if your entire "work experience" is a handful of web sites or Babby's First App, as long as it's in GitHub and you can send recruiters a link, you're in way better shape than someone with perfect grades and no projects.

I would argue that critical theory/social sciences spillover is actively more harmful than merely pushing more people into STEM. Pushing more people into STEM will simply produce a larger, more variable crop of graduates, but intersectional metastasis will eat out STEM from inside.
There's too much knowledge rot right now to blame SocJus crap for it. We have useless software, Moore's Law dying 4 years ago, new drugs that aren't really effective or just fewer attempts to cure some diseases, etc. The pace of innovation was stalling out shortly before the SJW takeover. Arguably it might be the first victim of the decades-long takeover in academia, but considering the innovation boom of the 90s that can't be the only factor.

A pedantic argument about timing and source doesn't matter, only pointing out that the harm is already here. Any further critical theory/social sciences infestation from this point on simply exacerbates the situation. Blaming it on leftist freaks and rooting them out doesn't solve whatever the underlying problem is.
 
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