Israel/Palestine

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AnOminous

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I'm not saying the Palestinians have been reasonable, they haven't, least of all Hamas. I'm just saying that I understand why they have an unreasonable antipathy to a state that was established against their will on land that they consider their own. They're hardly the first people to act irrationally in the name of nationalism.

There are plenty of states with unreasonable antipathies toward neighboring states.

But first off, Palestine isn't even a state. It isn't recognized as a state and it isn't one.

Second, no other actual state has insane shit in their constitution that literally demands annihilating a neighboring state and committing genocide against the people who live in it.

So if they're trying to convince the rest of the world that they're an actual state, and actually sane, and that their demands should be taken seriously, they're doing a piss-poor job of it.
 

AnOminous

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The bulk of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank are still governed by the pro-two-state National Authority though. Only Hamas, which controls the relatively small Gaza strip, are opposed to the existence of Israel at all.

So they should amend their foundational documents in some un-ambiguous way to make sure that we know that.

They haven't done that. At all.
 

DuskEngine

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I would like to add, though, that support for Hamas (and opposition to the two-state solution) seems to be growing in the West Bank, especially since the 2014 conflict.

Pollster Khalil Shikaki of the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey also reported what he called "the highest number ever recorded" -- 50 percent -- of Palestinians in the impoverished and isolated Gaza Strip considering emigration.

Meanwhile, almost one in two Israeli Jews support the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs.

At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position

The General Assembly can suck my dick. Nothing it does has any relevance to anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

Palestine_recognition_only.svg
 

KingGeedorah

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I would like to add, though, that support for Hamas (and opposition to the two-state solution) seems to be growing in the West Bank, especially since the 2014 conflict.



Meanwhile, almost one in two Israeli Jews support the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

Palestine_recognition_only.svg
It because the world has watched as a small group of people pretty much tries to commit suicide by attacking a larger and well armed neighbor. Albeit that neighbor has locks on all the doors and killer pitbulls that shoot killer bees out of their mouths.

It kinda reminds me of this
 

Lugal

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So they should amend their foundational documents in some un-ambiguous way to make sure that we know that.

They haven't done that. At all.
If they aren't a state then why the hell does a constitution matter?

Foundational documents of what? I thought you said they aren't a state?
 

AnOminous

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That may may image means nothing to me until it's actually recognized as a state, which it isn't. That's an either-it-is-or-it-isnt thing, and currently, it isn't. Once it's a member of the United Nations, I'll agree.

I do agree that everyone in the area, Palestinians and otherwise, deserve to live in a real state and have autonomy over their territory. Palestine should be a state. Israel should not be allowed to just dominate and terrorize its neighbors, including Palestine.

The two-state solution should look almost identical to the completely reasonable solution offered in the Oslo Accords.

The reason this hasn't happened is that the leadership of both Israel and the non-state Palestine are ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE.

It because the world has watched as a small group of people pretty much tries to commit suicide by attacking a larger and well armed neighbor. Albeit that neighbor has locks on all the doors and killer pitbulls that shoot killer bees out of their mouths.

To show some sympathy here, suppose you lived in a territory that has been absolutely and utterly fucked by its neighbor. Would you just give up and surrender like some fucking pussy or would you fight for your freedom?

That's how the Palestinians view themselves, and they have some good reasons for doing so.
 

KingGeedorah

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The reason this hasn't happened is that the leadership of both Israel and the non-state Palestine are ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE.
I think this is the crux of the problem in all honesty.

On a day to day basis, I'm sure most Israelis and Palestinians want to live in peace and harmony. You just get some crazy radicals like Hamas and the more out there members of Lukid trying to stir up some old beef.

Plus when both sides are guilty of committing crimes against the others youth (>18 years) then it's just a shit show of emotion and blame.
 

Lugal

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To show some sympathy here, suppose you lived in a territory that has been absolutely and utterly fucked by its neighbor. Would you just give up and surrender like some fucking pussy or would you fight for your freedom?

That's how the Palestinians view themselves, and they have some good reasons for doing so.

I was trying to make that exact same point before.
 

Fallensaint

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There are arguments for both sides. The issue is now that there is so much bad blood historically that reconciliation is all but impossible.

Look at the strain on England Argentina relations over the Falklands, historic violence coupled with national pride creates deep wounds.
 

AnOminous

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There are arguments for both sides. The issue is now that there is so much bad blood historically that reconciliation is all but impossible.

Bullshit.

There was bad blood centuries old between England and Ireland, and similarly, great arguments for why both sides were completely right. And similarly, constant acts of terrorism by the IRA.

That shit was more or less resolved.

There is no reason whatsoever that the "troubles" between Israel and Palestine can't be resolved. The main people claiming it can't be resolved are terrorists on both sides whose entire political careers depend on the continued problems continuing to exist.
 

Admiral Piett

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This situation is a really depressing one, and both sides have convincing arguments, but I support the two-state Palestinians. I feel that they're the underdogs in this scenario, and I always gravitate towards the underdog in nearly any case of this kind. Both sides have done abhorrent things to one another, but I believe it's unfair for Israel to takeaway land from people who worked it for hundreds of years. I sympathize with the Jews, and understand that they've had no homeland since they were expelled from Palestine, but find it, sort of hypocritical that they move the Palestinians off the land that they've worked and lived in for hundreds of years.
 

Lorento

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Bullshit.

There was bad blood centuries old between England and Ireland, and similarly, great arguments for why both sides were completely right. And similarly, constant acts of terrorism by the IRA.

Between Ireland and England? Yes. But Northern Ireland is still our equivalent of Palestine, a state that is entirely unsure of what it wants to be.

You see, despite the fact that London isn't being bombed by terrorists anymore and people aren't being shot in the streets, Northern is by and large so badly divided that I honestly believe we will never truly have peace there. People still sit in their segregated communities, people are still taught by priests about how evil the other side is, there are still walls there that divide protestant and catholic districts. And compared to Israel/Palestine, the IRA are tame.

And clearly, support for peace within Israel is starting to crumble. Just looking at the statistics, HALF of Israelis want the Arabs expelled. The Palestinians continue to vote in Hamas, who don't want a solution to the problem.

Frankly, I believe the situation is unsolvable, at least for now. Feel free to disagree, but I think that part of the world is truly fucked.
 

Pepsi-Cola

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I have a rather autistic opinion on the matter. I never understood why Jews and Arabs can't just live under some kind of republic that incorporates Palestinian and Jewish beliefs. I guess the two cultures just vary so wildly that existence under one flag is nearly impossible unless you separate the two with a Trump-esque wall.
 

Ponderous Pillock

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I have a rather autistic opinion on the matter. I never understood why Jews and Arabs can't just live under some kind of republic that incorporates Palestinian and Jewish beliefs. I guess the two cultures just vary so wildly that existence under one flag is nearly impossible unless you separate the two with a Trump-esque wall.

This idea has been bandied about for a while. It's called "Israstine" in which the Israeli's formally annex and incorporate the Palestinian Territories into the Israeli state and permit full political equality to all Palestinians within.

The grand irony is that, had the Six Day War not occurred (prompted by massive Egyptian mobilization along the Egypt-Israeli border) then the Palestinian question wouldn't actually exist. Egypt and Jordan formally annexed the Palestinian Territories after 1948 and Palestinian Nationalism had mostly died a death by the time 1967 rolled around. Israel pushing back into this area prompted a resurgence as the Jordanians and Egyptians basically did little to retain the territory, or retake it.
 

Pepsi-Cola

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This idea has been bandied about for a while. It's called "Israstine" in which the Israeli's formally annex and incorporate the Palestinian Territories into the Israeli state and permit full political equality to all Palestinians within.

The grand irony is that, had the Six Day War not occurred (prompted by massive Egyptian mobilization along the Egypt-Israeli border) then the Palestinian question wouldn't actually exist. Egypt and Jordan formally annexed the Palestinian Territories after 1948 and Palestinian Nationalism had mostly died a death by the time 1967 rolled around. Israel pushing back into this area prompted a resurgence as the Jordanians and Egyptians basically did little to retain the territory, or retake it.
Oh, interesting. Cool to know it's already a established belief I guess.