Israel/Palestine

[Joan Nyan]

One day

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Amen

 

[Male Idiot]

Israel was the land the Jews were banished from, it is only proper they reclaim their ancestral homeland.

 

[Joan Nyan]

Israel was the land the Jews were banished from, it is only proper they reclaim their ancestral homeland.

I don't give a shit about ancestral homelands, I just want to see the Middle East controlled by actual civilized people. Manifest Destiny 2.0.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

I think we should bring back the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the legitimate government of the Holy Land.

 

[Ntwadumela]

I believe both need to SHUT THE FUCK UP and learn to live together. It is one of the most juvenile reasons to have a border conflict. Both Jews and Muslims have lived in the same land for thousands of years, so why they can't do that now is a fucking mystery.
On that note, Palestinians are the biggest douchebags I've ever met, and I find it sad that my country's government supports them when they supported Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime during the Gulf War. I haven't met any Israelis yet so I have no comment on what I think of them as people.

 

[Takayuki Yagami]

I haven't met any Israelis yet so I have no comment on what I think of them as people.

Decent enough people usually, if a bit defensive for rather obvious reasons. The settlers might be more assholish, but I don't know.

 

[Chicken Nugget Scoon]

 

[Male Idiot]

I believe both need to SHUT THE FUCK UP and learn to live together. It is one of the most juvenile reasons to have a border conflict. Both Jews and Muslims have lived in the same land for thousands of years, so why they can't do that now is a fucking mystery.
On that note, Palestinians are the biggest douchebags I've ever met, and I find it sad that my country's government supports them when they supported Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime during the Gulf War. I haven't met any Israelis yet so I have no comment on what I think of them as people.

Could have been that they were too busy surviving without all the modern tech to really war with each other.

Than the Jews got evicted and now they want their home back., after cashing in all that pity points they got after WW2.

 

[kenham]

Israel was the land the Jews were banished from, it is only proper they reclaim their ancestral homeland.

The separation of the Jews from the Palestine region already began with the Assyrian conquests. The idea of a "homeland" for the Jewish people didn't began until the late 19th century, when Zionism emerged as a political ideology.
The whole idea of Zionism is a political, not a cultural one, as the last time a Jewish majority was centuries, if not a millenium ago, even back in the 19th century.
Do you see Saxons trying to reacquire Britain as their homeland on the world stage? Or Germans expressing interest in reclaiming Rome for the Holy Roman Empire? Such claims would historically be as valid as the claim of the Jews for Palestine, considering that as early as around 800 AD, Palestine was populated by a Muslim majority.

 

[Joan Nyan]

I believe both need to SHUT THE FUCK UP and learn to live together. It is one of the most juvenile reasons to have a border conflict. Both Jews and Muslims have lived in the same land for thousands of years, so why they can't do that now is a fucking mystery.

Israel has no obligation to accommodate barbarians.

 

[AnOminous]

Do you see Saxons trying to reacquire Britain as their homeland on the world stage? Or Germans expressing interest in reclaiming Rome for the Holy Roman Empire? Such claims would historically be as valid as the claim of the Jews for Palestine, considering that as early as around 800 AD, Palestine was populated by a Muslim majority.

These are what are called irredentist claims, and are generally rejected under international law. Simply seizing territory and taking it over and declaring it a state are essentially illegal under international law. However, once it's already happened and a state already exists, there is little the international community can do other than recognize statehood and act accordingly. Israel exists now, and expanded because its neighbors fucking attacked it and lost. Losing wars has consequences. By definition, a state already in existence has a right to exist, and claims to its territory by others have no legal weight.

There are also occupied territories under legitimate dispute, but short of actually getting Israel's agreement to some settlement of these claims, they're going to stay occupied into the foreseeable future. Israel does not give one single fuck about Security Council Resolution 446 and hasn't for 37 years.

There are plenty of international borders that exist and are disputed, and where people disputing them have valid moral or legal claims that it just ain't right in one way or another, but these, again, and wars to contest these borders, are not recognized as legitimate under international law under the principle known as uti possidetis, a general legal principle that borders as they exist are to be recognized.

 

[kenham]

These are what are called irredentist claims, and are generally rejected under international law. Simply seizing territory and taking it over and declaring it a state are essentially illegal under international law. However, once it's already happened and a state already exists, there is little the international community can do other than recognize statehood and act accordingly. Israel exists now, and expanded because its neighbors fucking attacked it and lost. Losing wars has consequences. By definition, a state already in existence has a right to exist, and claims to its territory by others have no legal weight.

There are also occupied territories under legitimate dispute, but short of actually getting Israel's agreement to some settlement of these claims, they're going to stay occupied into the foreseeable future. Israel does not give one single fuck about Security Council Resolution 446 and hasn't for 37 years.

There are plenty of international borders that exist and are disputed, and where people disputing them have valid moral or legal claims that it just ain't right in one way or another, but these, again, and wars to contest these borders, are not recognized as legitimate under international law under the principle known as uti possidetis, a general legal principle that borders as they exist are to be recognized.

I absolutely agree. The partition of Palestine to create a jewish state and the subsequent occupation of almost all of the region by the state of Israel was absolutely wrong in my opinion, however, now that the situation since then has so much changed and jews now make up a majority of Palestine's population, there's no reasoning in declaring "just throwing all the jews out again" as a viable solution. Even more as the modern state of Palestine has commited just as many atrocities during this conflict.
The tragedy of the whole situation is that the cultural and political divide between both states worsened so much that a single state solution has become nearly impossible and yet at the same time both states (especially Israel, IMHO) still won't give up trying to control the whole region (-> Israeli settlers being backed by the state settling on de iure Palestine territory), making a two-state solution more and more unlikely as well.
All in all this shit has been going on for decades now. And now with Israel's politics shifting even more to the right in recent years, I'm losing faith in this problem ever going to be solved in the mid-term.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Both Jews and Muslims have lived in the same land for thousands of years, so why they can't do that now is a fucking mystery.

Because for the first time since Muslims invaded back in the 7th century Jews are not living in squalor and subjugation as dhimmis who have to pay jizya to their overlords to avoid more than occasional raping pillaging and forced conversion.

If the Arabs were to lay down their arms, there would be no more wars.
If the Jews were to lay down their arms, there would be no more Jews.

The idea of a "homeland" for the Jewish people didn't began until the late 19th century, when Zionism emerged as a political ideology

Zionism was only the politicization and secularization of Judaism.

For almost two thousand years Jews prayed (and still pray because the whole land is not reunited yet) to return to the full land of Israel and have dominion over it. Literally the most famous phrase of the Passover Seder is "next year in Jeruslam"

 

[ulsterscotsman]

Israel has the right to exist but so does the State of Palestine, If Israel really wants peace then they should pull all settlers and armed forces out of the West Bank.
Also Hamas and other Militants in Gaza need to stop fucking launching rockets at Israel.

 

[AnOminous]

Israel has the right to exist but so does the State of Palestine, If Israel really wants peace then they should pull all settlers and armed forces out of the West Bank.
Also Hamas and other Militants in Gaza need to stop fucking launching rockets at Israel.

Palestine is not recognized as a state under customary international law, nor does the UN recognize it as a full member. States have a number of legal characteristics that have to exist before a state exists, and Palestine is lacking.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Israel has the right to exist but so does the State of Palestine, If Israel really wants peace then they should pull all settlers and armed forces out of the West Bank.
Also Hamas and other Militants in Gaza need to stop fucking launching rockets at Israel.

"Palestine" was never a state and "Palestinians" never asked for autonomy or claimed they were independent until 1967 when they stopped being under Arab occupation.

The Arabic people in Gaza speak isn't even the same as the one spoken in Judea and Samaria, to the point Arafat needed a constant translator to remind him of the right words when speaking to them

 

[Abethedemon]

I'm a Jew (maybe a bit more ethnically than religiously, but a little religiously) and I think that Israel has a right to exist, but at the same time Netanyahu and Hamas are both pretty awful. I'm mainly neutral, but I may lean slightly for Israel.

 

[AA 102]

A lot of the world's conflicts would be resolved if that entire region was turned into nuclear glass.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

but at the same time Netanyahu and Hamas are both pretty awful.

That's like saying getting a cold and sticking your dick on a chainsaw are similar