Jewish group calls on Congress to make Holocaust education mandatory in US schools - First three weeks? Holocaust.

Drunk and Pour
I got a simple solution. Just so the kids the opening scene from 2000's X-Men.
There, now the kids will be able to name one concentration camp.

Seriously, millennials don't know a lot of shit that they should know. We need to fix the education system as a whole so that it will actually educate students, and not to inject more propaganda in order to make special interest group's pollsters happy.

I've never doubted the Holocaust, because every refutation for it seems sketchy.

I have my doubts about the numbers, but that's about it- and only because the numbers I've heard over my lifetime have grown exponentially and I'm a bit skeptical when that happens- because as far back as I remember, no one's discovered some hidden mass grave with a million dead Jews- much less about 5 million.

However, the way these various Jewish groups act about it... you can't really blame people for raising an eyebrow. It's becoming the only sacred event through our entire history that we can't delve too deep into.

The fact that you can deny the Holocaust and go to fucking prison bothers me. I mean, when you've got to enforce a belief with prison time... you're going to get people who believe there's a reason to be skeptical.

NeoGAF Lurker

An Niggo
That's fantastic and all, but we really need to talk about the Silent Holocaust.

Why stop at Japan? The Chinese scored a massive own-goal when they killed 60 million of their own people. Just don't mention who actually organized the Chinese Communist party. Wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers.
Until I saw the documentary “The Revolutionary” at the Philadelphia Independent Film Festival, I mistakenly thought that China during the revolutionary period was one country that had not felt the Jewish embrace. In fact, 85 to 90% of the foreigners helping the Chinese at the time of the Communist takeover were Jewish. This included the daughter of the founder of the brokerage firm Goldman Sachs, who left the comfort of her Park Avenue home to assist the Chinese.
Fuckin lmao :story:

Android raptor

50% android, 50% raptor, 100% autistic
I thought it already was? Like with slavery/racism the Holocaust is pretty well covered in American schools beginning in late elementary school at the latest. Seriously the only schools I can imagine not teaching about the Holocaust are fucked up fundie private schools or alternative schools, and I'm sure most of the former at least mention it and the latter don't teach about anything because they're just babysitting centers for problem kids.

I do think the non-jewish victims of the Holocaust need to be focused on more though, because it seems like they're usually treated as just a one-sentence afterthought. Other genocides also need to be discussed, because from what I remember the only non-holocaust genocide they went over was the native American genocide/Trail of Tears.

UQ 770

Yes, the Holocaust was an event that took place. But you cannot distill the Holocaust down to singular fact. It is a complex event layered in lies beginning before the war was even over. The soap, for example, was believed and repeated by Jews for 50 years following the war - and some still do. It wasn't until the early 1990s that Jewish scholars admitted there wasn't a shred of evidence supporting the story. The death tolls attributed to other camps have never been proven, in fact at some camps like Majdanek it has dropped from the original estimate of 2 million to under 70,000. That is an enormous margin of error.
Its too bad that I can't read German or cursive, because I'd be interested to actually read through the records recovered from the camps and see if I can find any innacuracies myself, though that task would be extremely time-consuming even if I could read what I was looking at. Never doubt the power of bureaucracy.

Furthermore the numbers attributed to these camps have only gone way one: down.
Do you have a decent English-language source on this? In my perception it just seems to flutter up and down as the winds of politics happen to change direction. The only one I know for certain that's been crushed to the point where I even learned about it in school was the "6 million Jews" figure which was amended to "6 or so million Jews, Roma and political prisoners" by the time I started learning about it. To me that has less to do with the numbers shrinking and more with non-Kikes getting a little more acknowledgement in the process.

Dom Cruise

too... many... books...
The Holocaust, much like slavery, has been politicized in a very unfortunate way that muddies the waters of what really happened.

But it did happen, anyone who doubts that is way underestimating mankind's capacity for evil, genocide isn't even all that rare of an occurrence.

Innocent people suffered and died at the hands of political extremism, an important lesson for us to learn in the present day.
Funny how despite years of living under the Nazis these wealthy Jews remained in Germany. Stupidity, or hubris?

Fighting disinformation is a good agenda to have.
Join date - a month ago. Spewing super extreme anti Jew shit

I am getting good at spotting brand new users just by the predictable extreme positions they take. Almost like maybe shareblue isn't sending their best...


I am the snake in my boot
My bad. I still think it's an important thing to teach, especially now that you have survivors dying off in droves. Holocaust denial is a very real thing, as shown by some of the mongoloids in this thread. I suppose it is redundant to shove "6 gorillion" down peoples throats for three weeks out of a high school history class though. Also
Half a dozen other 20th century genocides beat the holocaust in sheer numbers of dead alone, yet the precious holocaust is the only one we're ever supposed to talk about.
It's not like people are stopping you from talking about the Great Leap Forward or Pol Pot. Hell, I stayed in Da Nang for a semester, and the people over there won't shut up about how awful the Chinese are. It just depends on where you're living; there happen to be a lot of people in the US who are there solely because they were fleeing from the Nazi's, hence why it's talked about so much.
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Prompt Critical

My general rule is that there are no sacred cows - it should be okay to ask questions about anything, and if the questions you're asking are stupid, that will be apparent from how self-evidently correct the answers are.

Questions that carry a social sanction for asking them immediately make me suspicious, even if I don't agree with the premises of the questioner. (Admittedly, I also find historical revisionism in general to be interesting.)

The framing of the discussion is weird anyway. There's no question of "would the Soviets fabricate evidence of Nazi atrocities for political purposes and then lie about it for decades afterwards?" because we know that on at least one occasion they did and were caught doing it. The question should be "how often did the Soviets do this?". There's no question of "could a makeshift camp intended to house prisoners inadvertently become a death camp in wartime?" because we know of at least one occasion where that's exactly what happened with no genocidal intent. The question should be "to what extent is that what happened here?" Likewise we know that at least some of the previously accepted firsthand accounts of survivors were recanted after it was proved they were fiction, and we know that the death tolls for at least some of the camps have been revised downwards after investigation (famously at Auschwitz). So the questions there aren't "could this information be wrong?" but "how much of this information was wrong?")

In my view, the generally accepted narrative of the holocaust is broadly correct - the evidence in favor is pretty overwhelming, much of it from what I consider unimpeachable sources (like US Army investigations conducted in the immediate postwar period), and anyone who claims otherwise is usually being dishonest because they have a personal ax to grind. It's extremely apparent that a mind-boggling number of people died, and the Germans were responsible for it. That said, I also suspect that once it has passed out of living memory in fifty years or so, and it becomes more acceptable to seriously investigate, there will be some not insignificant changes to that narrative.

But I still don't think it's wrong to ask questions.
It's not already? I don't think I know anyone who didn't have the Holocaust covered in some capacity during their schooling or was unable to give at least a basic outline of what it was.

Edit: Hell, even though most of my elementary and high school history classes barely touched anything past 1916 it was still covered multiple times, and I had to read Ellie Wisel's book in an English class. That 50% statistic seems grossly inflated like the 6 gorillion dead because pretty much everyone knows the name Auschwitz.
I'm surprised if I'm honest that the number is that high. Educational standards must have been slipping because, one can't discuss WW2 without covering the holocaust, or at the very least the use of forced labor in the concentration camp movements.

If anything when I was learning the subject and later covering more material I thought it was interesting that there wasn't enough made of the "others" who got sent to concentration camps alongside Jews.

Roma's are acknowledged most of the time, but the political prisoners, homosexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, and Freemasons that were rounded up by the Reich are rarely ever mentioned.

I don't know maybe I was lucky with the schooling I received in grade school and the fact that my textbooks were pretty red pilled considering what I later encountered in high school. They even had sections on the holodomor, and the killing fields. (Which aren't ever discussed anymore it seems.)

The whole 6 million number was an invention by Simon Weisenthal because it seemed like a bigger number. IRCC.

He did this to raise money from sympathetic forces for his Nazi hunting career, and the number stuck after the war, because no one cared or wanted to challenge the common narrative. (Israel has never corrected this either despite having more accurate statistic, because again 6 million is a higher number than 4 or 5)

The official records had something between 4.6 and 5.3 million killed throughout the course of the war, whether by the Einsatzgruppen, Allied collaborationist parties. or later by the liquidation sections of Auschwitz and other camps like Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor, etc.

Most of the concentration camps, while brutal places were not used expressly for the liquidation of Jews but rather as holding areas for those that the Nazi party considered socially undesirable, or additionally Soviet prisoners of war. (Western POWs were subjected to abuse, but nowhere near the excesses that Soviets were, partly because of ideological differences, but also sheer numbers of Soviet POWs)

Which is why the Poles get pissed off when the Germans say Polish Death Camps, because the Germans didn't want to cause alarm in local German populations, they placed extermination camps outside of Germany and also the safest closest distance to their new territories in the East (Lebensraum.)

At the same time, it's very hard to get an unbiased accounting for the death toll of the concentration camps, partly because the number has shifted into the general consciousness for so long it's easier to not challenge it, than challenge it.

A lot of governments involved, outside of the Poles, aren't interested because they have at least some part of involvement in the history of the camps and the final solution. (Hungarians rounding up Jews, Ukranian and Lithuanian volunteers for the Einsatzgruppen, and the Western countries that supplied SS guards through volunteer programs, etc.)

I met one such volunteer. He'd signed up with the SS to fight communists in the East, got posted to a concentration camp in Germany. Fled back to Holland went into hiding, and emigrated as soon as he could.
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What about all the other genocides? It's not like Jews are more valuable than other people?
They're not, it's just the fact that they're the most numerous and the closest thing that the West has to any other style of large scale genocide. If people tend to show the greatest level of interest and concern in something that happens within their sphere of experience and shared history, then the holocaust is generally the closest thing Westerners (North Americans are included in this sphere) have to a firsthand experience of mass genocide.

Think, all of the great mass genocides of the 20th century were either in Asia, the Middle East, or Eastern Europe almost exclusively, and precipitated mainly by Communist (Totalitarian) regimes. The Nazi's in Germany is unique in this respect because it effected Western Europeans. Also it's not exclusively Jewish, though they were the largest group of victims, followed by the Slavs.

Something which I find annoying at times, because the common narrative almost exclusively forgets the other concentration camp victims.
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To be clear: there was a mass extermination of jews and also other humans. However forcing something to be said is coming of as suspect to me.

Reminds me of the speech from Christopher Hitchens about free speech.

Well, if everybody in North America is forced to attend a school training in sensitivity or in Holocaust awareness and is taught to study the final solution, about which nothing was actually done by this country or North America or the United Kingdom while it was going on but lets say as if in compensation for that everyone's made to swallow an official and unalterable story of it now and it's taught as the great moral exemplar the great modern equivalent of the morally lacking elements of the Second World War a way of stilling our uneasy conscience about that combat, if that's the case with everybody as it more or less is and one person gets up and says, "You know what, this Holocaust? I'm not sure it even happened. In fact, I'm pretty certain it didn't. Indeed I begin to wonder if the only thing is that the Jews brought a little bit of violence on themselves". That person doesn't just have a right to speak, that person's right to speak must be given extra protection because what he has to say must have taken him some effort to come up with.

Might be, might contain, a grain of historical truth. Might in any case give people to think about why do they know what they already think that they know? How do I know that I know this, except that I've always been taught this and never heard anything else? It's always worth establishing, first principles, saying "What would you do if you met a flat Earth society member?" "Come to think of it, how can I prove the Earth is round?" "Am I sure about the theory of evolution? I know it's supposed to be true. Here's someone who says no such thing, it's all intelligent design". "How sure am I in my own views?" Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus and the feeling that whatever you think you're bound to be okay because you're in the safely moral majority.

I like how more then half the people in this thread never actually post or talk about lolcows or engage with any other part of the site. Why the fuck are you guys even on this site?
Waiting for you to show up because we knew every other lolcow was a pale imitation of your glory, obviously.

Also the mods are pretty lighthanded here so you can talk about various shit without worrying too much about getting banned for wrongthink.

Why are you in the off topic articles and happenings forum talking about cows?

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