Manosphere Jordan Peterson - Internet Daddy Simulator, Post-modern Anti-postmodernist, Canadian Psychology Professor, Depressed

Cheap Sandals

REEEEEEEE
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Thanks for this. I didn't tune into the debate, but it's been said that Jordan Peterson's knowledge of Marxism came exactly from reading The Communist Manifesto. For so much time spent preparing for the big event, the dude was astoundingly underread. He could've spent time reading up on Das Kapital (the absolute minimum for anyone remotely interested in Marxism), The Frankfurt School, Situationist International, The Fourth International, dialectical materialism, labor theory of value, surplus labor, Joseph Dietzgen, Theodor Adorno, György Lukács, Herbert Marcuse, Max Horkheimer, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Henri Lefebvre, Guy Debord, Gilles Deleuze, Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, et cetera. Yet he was only familiar with The Communist Manifesto, a text that is far from a philosophical treatise.

It had long been speculated that Slavoj Žižek would run circles around Kermit, and virtually every commentary on the debate echoes such sentiments. Even Nick Fuentes was despondent, stating that the right-wing has lots of homework to do before throwing down with the big boys:
Running circles around him is right.

I can only imagine what Peterson fans felt when they watched their hero struggle and finally just request Zizek to define Marxism when it was obvious Peterson had no idea what what going on.

When you have weeks to prepare and you end up just asking your 'opponent' to educate you... wellllp... it's not exactly an intellectual tour de force...
 

UngaWunga

Time Vampire
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I didn’t expect this thread to be so full of tender lads tough guy posturing and calling posters BOI because the absurdity of their prissy middle aged daddy man’s meat sweat drenched rant about how the Ice Lesbian is somehow bad because....the queers I guess?

Peterson fans are a trip.


It was such a treat to watch Zizek show him as what he is: a guy who read enough Wikipedia summaries that he was able to convince a certain breed of dullard that he’s smart.
 

Emperor Julian

kiwifarms.net
Petersons problem in the debate as @Cheap Sandals said is he isnt used to debating men like Zizek. The basic truth is the people he usually debates are tacitly okay with this system but want it made a little 'nicer' for all their posturing the only real differance if they succeed is the haves will have more variety in terms of pronouns and race wereas the have nots will look more like Appalachians than baltamore. Zizek fucking hates everything about our current system and thinks sjw shit is a waste of time.
Interestingly the left wing soarces are downplaying both of them. Because they correctly perceive both of them as a threat to their cosy affluent pc island in an increasingly dystopian society.
 

Gorilla Tessellator

kiwifarms.net
My take on the debate:
Both JBP and Zizek are clowns in the Clown World. They are avatars representing certain semi-dead ideas. JBP - decent suit conservatism, Zizek - thrift store leftism.

I think many posters forget that they both participated in an "intellectual" show. It's astounding to me that you take it for granted that entire show was a spontaneous event without a script.

Zizek is definitely more witty than JBP, and so it looks for the casual observer that he 'won". He also doesn't care much about his career, while JBP clearly has jitters of a fresh rock-star, hence he is obnoxiously self-promoting and self-conscious. He is also insufferably verbose, and I hope this debate and following backlash will prompt him to just cut on his words. He appears to love to listen to his own voice, and he just uses too many words to express himself.

Another reason JBP got some spanking is that he comes from the Anglo-Saxon bubble, and he has clearly only book idea what totalitarianism is. Zizek on the other hand, grew up in a country were there was actual oppression of political dissidents. It's not an accident that many look at the Slavs now as the hope of the Europe. They are simply never going to accept PC BS, because they viscerally understand what propaganda (in the original meaning of the word) is, and how to defend yourself against it.

However, I have a question for you: what exactly was revelatory in what Zizek said? German toilets?
Weren't you surprised that he agreed with JBP on many points?

The main goal of the "debate" was to model future debates, and in this regard I think it was a smashing success for both clowns. They also definitely didn't cry on their ways to their respective banks.
 

UngaWunga

Time Vampire
kiwifarms.net
Zizek indeed doesn’t offer much in the way of alternatives or solutions. He’s a critic and all honked out out critical theory. He has a whole video called Don’t Act, Think!

I do wish we had another leftist public intellectual who could pick up the ball from where Zizek’s critiques end and begin to popularize some kind of tendency. I’m personally tendency agnostic and just wish some of the eggheads would pool behind a single leftist tendency that’s actionable and likely to be popular, but wonks and eggheads are a troublesome lot.

Funny tho. Zizek has made a lot of his bread and butter offering Marxist and Lacanian analysis of film, probably even some Disney ones. I guess the difference between when he and Jorp do it is that Zizek is actually smart and has read the books he talks about, and doesn’t seem like he’s on the brink of tears every time he speaks.
 
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UngaWunga

Time Vampire
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Jordan Peterson is a dude who has apparently devoted his whole career to explaining the intricacies of how he misunderstands Jung’s Answer to Job.

Just read Answer to Job. It’s a fascinating book and much more engrossing to read than to listen to some Canadian bootleg Ichabod Crane trying to stretch it to cover his weird, kind of sad views about gender.

He’s like some kind of Bizarro World Robert Anton Wilson.
 
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Cool kitties club

Question everything (except cats)
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So I watched the entire 2.5hr debate and I'll summarize it to save everyone some time. Just to disclose how I lean, I went in potentially sympathetic to both Zizek and Peterson because both of them are maligned by mainstream academia and both of them seem to 'get' that the West is in a period of crisis. Other than that, I didn't know much about either other than Zizek's sniffles and Peterson's lobsterboys.

Zizek blew Peterson out of the water. Peterson came out swinging with what I'm sure he considered devastating takedowns of Marxism, and Zizek gently reframed the entire debate to be about the failures of hyper individualistic, unrestrained capitalism. He did it so well, Peterson actually admitted that he was kinda undone, and from that moment on, Zizek led the debate (though in a very friendly and cordial way that ended up with both individuals obviously enjoying the other's conversation.)

Zizek came off as much more worldly and mature, and he gently poked at Peterson with little bon mots about lobsters and requesting Peterson name actual Marxist philosophers who subscribe to American idenpol madness. Peterson couldn't, but he made a really interesting remark about Foucault switching out the concept of classes with identity to create the iden-pol movement. It was the single 'point' he scored all night. But it was partially undone when Zizek pointed out that Foucault wasn't a Marxist thinker and, in fact, considered Marxism unrealistic. Womp wah.

Peterson is obviously used to debating angry children and zealots, because a calm and measured criticism of the status quo left him totally unseated. He had no idea how to handle Zizek, no frame of reference for Zizek's point of view and seemed totally fucking bewildered by Zizek's positing that communistic societies aren't poor oppressed peasants under a jackboot heel, but are rather collections of people who allow these regimes to happen because it serves their purposes.

Zizek won, but it wasn't really a 'fight'. It was very friendly.
I think the premise of the debate was faulty too. Happiness: capitalism vs. communism doesn't really see right considering Peterson really isn't someone that comes to mind when I think of capitalist or free market capitalist philosophy or economics. Zizek isn't really a traditional marxist meaning his argument was less of a defense of communism but just a critique of capitalism. So the debate just felt like PragerU debunks communism against someone that actually understood philosophy beyond sparknotes.
 

UngaWunga

Time Vampire
kiwifarms.net
Didn’t help either that they both agree the usual Western concept of happiness and especially it being a goal in and of itself is both unattainable and a misunderstanding of what happiness actually is.
 

murgatroid

kiwifarms.net
Apparently this is the mentally unhinged guy who rushed the stage at Jordan Peterson. His name is David Lingbao Xu.

All the youtube video comments about him being the next mass shooter type are gone.

735804


I don't have a Facebook but somehow I was able to see below. Maybe he was committed after the JP stunt. When will people learn you can't pray crazy away. :roll:

735989


736001
 

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RichardMongler

kiwifarms.net

This might be the most memorable moment in the debate. Where Peterson wants to warn against bloody revolution and when he does, a couple of people start to cheer for bloody revolution.
Running circles around him is right.

I can only imagine what Peterson fans felt when they watched their hero struggle and finally just request Zizek to define Marxism when it was obvious Peterson had no idea what what going on.

When you have weeks to prepare and you end up just asking your 'opponent' to educate you... wellllp... it's not exactly an intellectual tour de force...
Blow-by-blow:
1:21 Welcome Slavoj Žižek and Jordan Peterson
3:46 Žižek's credentials
5:00 Peterson's credentials
7:36 Peterson's Opening Statement (about 30 minutes long)
  • Tickets were higher priced than Leaf's game
  • The Communist Manifesto
13:43 Hierarchical Structure is part of Biology and History.
16:36 A struggle for life in a cruel and complex world
19:30 The Demolition of The Kulaks
20:30 Binary Good/Evil, Proletariat/Bourgeois Identity Politics
24:37 1830's
26:21 What's wrong with profit?
27:14 How can you grow without prosperity?
28:35 Corruption, Proletarians rise up, overthrow. So, what now bucko?
31:08 Shallow Conception of A Person
31:57 Marx/Engels admit Capitalism is successful at quick production
34:42 You can't have an economic system without some inequality.
- Capitalism creates wealth and inequality, All others just produce inequality

Žižek's Opening Statement
38:55 Slavoj Žižek is tired of Left attacks on them
39:45 Happiness, Communism, Capitalism. Praise China. China combines (1) Strong State (2) Capitalist Merits (?)
41:10 Happiness from Psychoanalysis. Humans can and do sabotage their own happiness. Unreadiness to confront our true desire
43:00 Donald Trump Ego Trip. Profanity. "Trump is the ultimate Postmodern President"
44:12 Religion can make good people do bad things
46:23 Self Hatred/Degeneration is solved through multiculturalism/ "White multiculturalism Liberals embody the lie of Identity Politics." (?)
47:06 Pathological need for Jealousy to sustain Identity (The jealous husband. The Anti-Semitic Nazi. The Anti-Immigrant populists) The facts are true, the populist story is a lie
50:42 Daniel Bell Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism
53:15 "Evil is profoundly spiritual..."
55:00 Diminished arguments
55:45 Education and Equality.
57:00 Nature and Evolution. Like French Cuisine
59:19 T.S. Eliot. Art's effect on the past. "The past should be altered by the present as much as the present is directed by the past"
1:01:38 Soren Kierkegaard. God, Christ
1:03:40 The Commons, The Forests. World Interconnectedness
1:06:51 Marx Thesis 11 and Changing Human Nature (Man and Machine. Digitization of the brain.)
1:07:55 Foreign political messiness. (1) Enclosure (2) Globalization
1:10:34 Capitalist Market does great things, needs regulation/limitation
1:11:32 Pessimistic View
1:12:21 Confronting Serious Problems: China

Peterson's Response 1:13:43
1:15:54 Reduction to Economic Competition is not the best way forward
People value Absence of Misery > Happiness (In Peterson's experience with Psychology)
1:18:45 Catastrophes of the struggle of human experience (1:19:47 Yang Gang?)
1:21:36 No good alternative for Capitalism
1:25:00 You have to clean your own room, bucko.

Žižek Response 1:25:40
1:26:45 Czechoslovakia. Happiness. Nostalgia/Fondness for the past
1:29:50 China scares Žižek
1:30:40 Fears dictator capitalism
1:31:30 Marx
1:32:24 Communism. Agrees with Peterson on many points. It's complex.
1:33:40 Oceans, International Action, Diminishing poverty, End of Apartheid, Race Card
1:34:58 Global Trade Corporation. Yemen
1:36:28 Disavow. Pessimism, no easy way out

Ending Questions/Audience Questions

1:39:15 "You're a strange Marxist to have a discussion with" you have an appeal to rebels
1:40:45 Why not promote Žižekism instead of old Marxism?
1:45:00 "We need Radical Openness"
1:46:58 Where are the Post-Modern Neo Marxists? Where is the Marxist factor in Post Modernism?
1:51:27, 1:52:35 1960's France Post-Modernism. Skepticism of Metanarratives. 1:54:13/1:55:07 (Michel Foucault)

What is True Human Happiness. How do we obtain it? (1:57:08)
1:58:23 J.P "You can't will yourself to be happy" The event happens, and in your reflection find happiness. Envision the ultimate good and live by those principles. "It's not happiness. It's meaning"
2:01:00 "Stand on the edge of what you know..."
2:02:23 S.Ž Falling in Love. Authentic Love.
2:05:30 Happiness is The Fall, The Struggle. (Movement. Not Stasis)
2:09:26 Confront your fears, Battle The Dragon. Save Your Father Pinocchio.
2:14:34 Carl Jung
2:17:34 The Fall in Christianity. Ideology. German Toilets
2:24:00 Man is so complex
2:27:00 Individual Responsibility. Be a good player in this game.
2:28:45 German Officers doing horrible things. Heinrich Himmler. Nazi Psyche
2:31:37 Zen Buddhist justification of Japanese Militarism in the 1930's
2:33:30 A Thought To Leave You With
J.P. The Power of Conversation and The Great Achievement of Free Speech
S.Ž Don't be Politically Correct. Trump is not a Fascist
 

Lemmingwise

Blamer
kiwifarms.net
I think the premise of the debate was faulty too. Happiness: capitalism vs. communism doesn't really see right considering Peterson really isn't someone that comes to mind when I think of capitalist or free market capitalist philosophy or economics.
Maybe not capitalism, but Peterson is the first person that comes to mind when you think of happiness.

I can't think of anyone more mirthful. A natural expert on the subject.
 

Truthspeaker

Walking that line between victim and ex-lover
kiwifarms.net
you're right in principle. pragerU is little more than a public outlet for american conservative propaganda.
that said, "no serious accademic should associate with them" is a prety moot point imo. in a world where plenty of established academics gladly and frequently associate with partisan rags like WaPo, the NYT and the guardian, there is no basis for portraying petersons work for prager as particularly unethical or immoral.
This is nonsense.

Forget the politics for a moment. Peterson could do an interview for Perez Hilton, and it'd still be more respectable than a tenured professor from one of the top universities in North America associating with an institution that only exists to bullshit off the prestige of academia.

And even if it wasn't "but the left did it first" isn't a real argument. It's only brought up so Trump supporters can feel better about voting for the second American President ever credibly accused of rape.
 
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Truthspeaker

Walking that line between victim and ex-lover
kiwifarms.net
it absolutely is.
like i said, if you think his work for prager discredits lobster man, then you would likewise have to consider the myriad of academics who appear at similarly partisan outlets on the other side of the spectrum to be discredited by their associations with these outlets. otherwise you're just a dishonest partisan shill.
I'm not calling PragerU out for being partisan.* I'm calling them out for pretending to be a university.

As just so I can make tribute to Žižek, name one other professor of a similarly prestigious school (UoT's produced ten Nobel Laureats) who's done this kinda thing.

* Though they are, and you're nuts for comparing NYT and WaPo to fucking PragrrU because they don't pretend our rapist POTUS isn't a blithering, unquslified sociopath. It's one thing to compare Salon or even modern-day Slate to PragerU (though they're still not as sleazy due to not literally being fake universities), but pretending your Seth Rich murder fantasies hold the same weight as the ghostwriter of Trump's biography is delusional.
 
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Cool kitties club

Question everything (except cats)
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I'm not calling PragerU out for being partisan.* I'm calling them out for pretending to be a university.

As just so I can make tribute to Žižek, name one other professor of a similarly prestigious school (UoT's produced ten Nobel Laureats) who's done this kinda thing.

* Though they are, and you're nuts for comparing NYT and WaPo to fucking PragrrU because they don't pretend our rapist POTUS isn't a blithering, unquslified sociopath. It's one thing to compare Salon or even modern-day Slate to PragerU (though they're still not as sleazy due to not literally being fake universities), but pretending your Seth Rich murder fantasies hold the same weight as the ghostwriter of Trump's biography is delusional.
Does anyone actually think prager u is university? I'm pretty sure most people know you aren't getting an accredited degree from prageru; it's like getting mad that Khan academy isn't a real university. Don't get me wrong I think Prager U is trash, but getting mad at it for no being a real university is a pretty nonsensical argument.
 

Truthspeaker

Walking that line between victim and ex-lover
kiwifarms.net
Does anyone actually think prager u is university? I'm pretty sure most people know you aren't getting an accredited degree from prageru; it's like getting mad that Khan academy isn't a real university. Don't get me wrong I think Prager U is trash, but getting mad at it for no being a real university is a pretty nonsensical argument.
What kind of comparrison is this?

Khan Academy teaches actual skills, often better and more conveniently than what most people actually get at accredited universities. Sure, you don't get accredited for it, but you can use them to help you get actual accredation from the bored Chinese adjunct who's just waiting for a job that actually pays the entire time he's supposed to be teaching a bunch of stoners what a differential is.

And just cause someone or something's been long exposed as fraudulent, no matter how publicly and embarassingly, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be blasted for being frauds for as long as they continue to behave in such a fashion (think of this as "the Jacob Wohl Rule").

If PragerU wants to stop getting blasted for this, they should either stop calling themselves "Prager University", or get actual accredation.

Crucially, neither of these steps would retroactively absolve Peterson producing content for, and associating with, a literal fake university for the same of advancing his political agenda. As I've said many times before, he has even less excuse than most of their content creators, given that he's a tenured professor from one of the top schools on the planet.

He actively lent legitimacy to people who were defrauding his profession just because he liked their politics. It's not the unintentionally-funniest thing he's done, but it's definitely the worst of what's currently known.

I presume the only reason you're currently contorting yourself to defend it is because you don't like to see right-wing politics being made fun of unless the target forces your hand. But each time you do that, you will defend worse and worse behavior, until the tape of Donald Trump at Jeffrey Epstein's statutory-rape parties comes to light, and all you talk about is how Bill Clinton also flew on thr Lolita Express.
 

Cool kitties club

Question everything (except cats)
kiwifarms.net
Khan Academy teaches actual skills, often better and more conveniently than what most people actually get at accredited universities. Sure, you don't get accredited for it, but you can use them to help you get actual accredation from the bored Chinese adjunct who's just waiting for a job that actually pays the entire time he's supposed to be teaching a bunch of stoners what a differential is.

And just cause someone or something's been long exposed as fraudulent, no matter how publicly and embarassingly, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be blasted for being frauds for as long as they continue to behave in such a fashion (think of this as "the Jacob Wohl Rule").

If PragerU wants to stop getting blasted for this, they should either stop calling themselves "Prager University", or get actual accredation.
I'm just confused as to why your primary argument is that PragerU is that they aren't a real university when the only issue is that they don't teach useful things. You admit Khan academy calling itself an academy is okay because they actually teach you stuff while prageru is just trashy propaganda. I agree PragerU is riddled with factual inaccuracies and their audience is so muddled I have no idea who actually watches or is supposed to watch them. I just think it's odd that your primary problem is that they aren't a real university when prageru has other issues.

I presume the only reason you're currently contorting yourself to defend it is because you don't like to see right-wing politics being made fun of unless the target forces your hand. But each time you do that, you will defend worse and worse behavior, until the tape of Donald Trump at Jeffrey Epstein's statutory-rape parties comes to light, and all you talk about is how Bill Clinton also flew on thr Lolita Express
I don't like PragerU in fact here is a good right wing critique of PragerU:
 

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