Mega Rad Gun Thread -

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Particle Bored

I am made out of toothpicks and glue
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Recently picked up a Smith and Wesson Model 57 and a second upper for my MWS308. The S&W 57 was made sometime in 1967 or 1968. .41 Magnum is my all-time favorite revolver cartridge. I used to have one made around the same time period with an 8 3/8" barrel, but I ended up selling it to make ends meet. This one has a 6" barrel, and I think it balances in my hand better than the longer one did. I'm going to get some nice custom grips made for it, possibly in giraffe bone.

The new upper for my MWS308 has M-Lok slots instead of the integral picatinny rails machined into the hand guard like the original upper does. I'll be setting up the new upper with a 16" stainless barrel, Aimpoint or ACOG, weapon light, and not much else. It'll be kept simple and light as a general self defense rifle. The original upper (the one with the Elcan scope mounted on it) will be set up for longer range shooting, so it'll get a 20" stainless barrel, bipod, weapon light, and possibly a laser aiming device and a small red dot on a 45° mount for quick close up shots. That way I'll have one rifle that can fill two roles simply by swapping uppers.
I way prefer m-lok to quadrail (and m-lok over keymod). Quadrail seems so bulky, and really how much shit does one need to bolt on there?
 

The Dude

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I way prefer m-lok to quadrail (and m-lok over keymod). Quadrail seems so bulky, and really how much shit does one need to bolt on there?
What, are you saying that you don't have three weapon lights, a laser, scope, backup red dot, backup iron sights, bipod, rail mounted holster for a pistol, rail mounted magazine pouch, vertical foregrip, angled foregrip, barrier brace, grenade launcher, and a tactical nut sack mounted on your rifle? What kind of high-speed/low-drag operator are you?
 

Particle Bored

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What, are you saying that you don't have three weapon lights, a laser, scope, backup red dot, backup iron sights, bipod, rail mounted holster for a pistol, rail mounted magazine pouch, vertical foregrip, angled foregrip, barrier brace, grenade launcher, and a tactical nut sack mounted on your rifle? What kind of high-speed/low-drag operator are you?
Foregrips are a big no-no round these parts.

Dont even like stuff mounted on sides. Low profile is way to go.

Upper #1 (16"): red dot, magnifier, BUIS, light, brass catcher mount
Upper #2 (20"): scope, offset BUIS, bipod
Upper #3 will be a 9mm 14.5" (w pinned/welded comp) with just iron sights

K.I.S.S.
 
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The Dude

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Hell yes. I have no idea why the 10mm Auto attained more popularity than the 41 Magnum. They're both excellent cartridges, but if I have to pick one for hunting, I want the one that comes in the best working guns...and those are almost all revolvers.
10mm Auto is my favorite auto-loader pistol cartridge. I hope to one day get a good quality 10mm pistol, something like the Dan Wesson Wraith or a SIG P220 Legion. I'm really happy to see ammunition companies loading 10mm to it's full potential instead of basing all their loads off of the "FBI Light" loads. May as well go with .40 Short and Wimpy at that point.
 

AprilRains

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10mm Auto is my favorite auto-loader pistol cartridge. I hope to one day get a good quality 10mm pistol, something like the Dan Wesson Wraith or a SIG P220 Legion. I'm really happy to see ammunition companies loading 10mm to it's full potential instead of basing all their loads off of the "FBI Light" loads. May as well go with .40 Short and Wimpy at that point.
Your dismissal of the .40 S&W I disregard as either badinage or ignorance. However, you just underlined one of the issues with the 10mm that doesn't exist with the 41 Magnum.

For hunting, you want something near the maximum power of the 41 Magnum, but for self-defense that's largely wasted power. It is hard to have a single self-defense handgun that can handle all of these levels of power without significant adjustment, since most serious self-defense handguns are semi-automatic.

A revolver can handle all of these perfectly well. You can have six rounds in the cylinder with multiple levels of power, from snake shot to bear killers. That kind of flexibility can matter when you're wandering around in the field.

in any case, I didn't say the 10mm is bad, just that I'm surprised the 41 Magnum doesn't do better.
 

The Dude

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Your dismissal of the .40 S&W I disregard as either badinage or ignorance. However, you just underlined one of the issues with the 10mm that doesn't exist with the 41 Magnum.

For hunting, you want something near the maximum power of the 41 Magnum, but for self-defense that's largely wasted power. It is hard to have a single self-defense handgun that can handle all of these levels of power without significant adjustment, since most serious self-defense handguns are semi-automatic.

A revolver can handle all of these perfectly well. You can have six rounds in the cylinder with multiple levels of power, from snake shot to bear killers. That kind of flexibility can matter when you're wandering around in the field.

in any case, I didn't say the 10mm is bad, just that I'm surprised the 41 Magnum doesn't do better.
I dismiss the .40 S&W out of personal experience. I shot it for years (mostly because I got the ammunition for free due to my Dad being issued handguns chambered for it with the two law enforcement agencies he worked for), and I personally see nothing that it offers over modern 9mm or .45 ACP. In fact, many law enforcement agencies are dropping .40 S&W and going back to 9mm because there are several advantages it offers over .40 (lower recoil, higher magazine capacity, ease of training, more affordable). Modern 9mm hollow points perform on par with .40 S&W while offering lower chamber pressures, lower recoil, higher magazine capacity, and less noise. I don't get my ammo for free, so I don't see the need to buy a pistol chambered in a cartridge that really offers no advantage over 9mm or .45 ACP.

And I think the reason .41 Magnum doesn't have the popularity that 10mm Auto does is because revolvers themselves aren't as popular as autos these days. I grew up shooting revolvers more than autos because that's what my Dad owned and was issued for the longest time. It wasn't until I was in my teen years that my Dad started getting issued autos and decided they were worth owning. So I shoot more or less equally with both styles of handgun. But these days autos definitely outsell revolvers and are carried by more people for self defense and duty. Magnums are better fight stoppers, but autos offer several advantages like faster reloads, softer recoil, higher capacity, lighter weight, and better ergonomics. I think that's really why 10mm is more popular than .41 Mag.
 

AprilRains

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The .41 Magnum failed well before the day of the revolver faded. I don't think your explanation explains.
 

The Dude

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The .41 Magnum failed well before the day of the revolver faded. I don't think your explanation explains.
The .41 Mag didn't fail, it just never achieved the popularity of the .357 Mag and .44 Mag. Elmer Keith designed it to be a police cartridge, with the hotter, heavier sportsman round as almost an afterthought. The problem was that the .357 Magnum and .38 Spcl. already had a long history with law enforcement and most departments didn't see the need to invest in an all new cartridge. A few departments and agencies did issue either the 57 or 58, but the .357 and .38 remained king. On the sportsman side of things, if someone wanted something more powerful than a .357 Magnum, they tended to go with the .44 Mag. The Dirty Harry films had a big part to play in that, seeing as how before the first film came out the S&W 29 and the .44 Magnum barely sold at all, and most civilians were happy with the .357 to fill their need or want for a magnum pistol.

Then there is the fact that both the .357 and .44 were developed from parent cases (.38 Spcl and .44 Spcl respectively) that the each weapon could safely chamber and fire, giving their owners a cheaper and easier to shoot alternative for training and target shooting. The .41 Magnum was developed by itself and didn't have a lighter "special" companion cartridge until fairly recently. Then there is the fact that not many guns were chambered for .41 Mag. You had the S&W 57, 58 and 657, the Ruger Blackhawk and Redhawk, and a couple of lever rifles. The Desert Eagle and Coonan automatics were available in .41 for brief periods, but not many other options were available. There are a lot of contributing factors as to why the .41 didn't catch on. It's always had a dedicated cult following like the 10mm had. And it is getting more popular these days. But the 10mm Auto is chambered in auto-loading pistols, thus is still seen as "relevant" by most shooters these days. The .41 Mag is a revolver cartridge, and most shooters these days consider revolvers obsolete, or at best curiosities and collectables. Autos rule the law enforcement and personal defense markets these days, and for those few who do decide to pack a wheelgun, .357 Magnum is plenty potent for them.
 

AprilRains

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The .41 Mag didn't fail, it just never achieved the popularity of the .357 Mag and .44 Mag.
That's an impressively silly incorrection. The .41 is a drop in the bucket compared to its Magnum brothers on either side.

As for your earlier argument, claiming that the 9mm is powerful enough does nothing to support your ".40 Short & Weak" thing.
 

The Dude

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That's an impressively silly incorrection. The .41 is a drop in the bucket compared to its Magnum brothers on either side.

As for your earlier argument, claiming that the 9mm is powerful enough does nothing to support your ".40 Short & Weak" thing.
If the .41 failed then they wouldn't have continued to make ammo or chamber guns for it. Just because something isn't as popular as something else doesn't mean it failed. It failed in its target market (law enforcement), but plenty of sportsmen, collectors, and self defense shooters kept it alive, just like the 10mm was kept alive for nearly 30 years before it started gaining popularity. .41 Mag will always be a niche cartridge, but it's hardly a complete failure.

You obviously don't know many Ten Mil guys. The .40 S&W was based on the 10mm. In the early 90s the FBI adopted the 10mm Auto to replace their .38s and 9mms after a disastrous shootout with a couple of guys in Miami (1988 I think?) where each of the bad guys took literally dozens of rounds of 9mm, .38, and even buckshot before they stopped shooting back. The FBI decided they needed to issue their agents with a more effective pistol/cartridge combo and with with the Smith and Wesson 1076 (used to own one that was a former FBI sidearm and I wish I still had it) in 10mm Auto. It was a big, single stack auto nearly the size of a 1911. The HRT even started using H&K MP5s chambered in 10mm. The problem was most FBI agents are citified college grads who have little-to-no experience with firearms before they enter the FBI academy, so many of them had a difficult time qualifying with such a powerful handgun. Federal was the ammunition company that was supplying the FBI with their duty ammo, and the FBI asked them to develop a special light load for their pistols, because their pussy agents couldn't handle the recoil. The problem was that every ammunition manufacturer that loaded 10mm started loading their 10mm offerings based on the FBI light load instead of loading the 10mm to it's full potential like they used to. So now the BI had this big, single stack, 1911-esque auto-loader, but were shooting cartridges that weren't that much better than .45 ACP. So Smith and Wesson analyzed the situation, approached the FBI and said "We can take the 10mm, cut the case down so it will fit in a 9mm sized pistol, but keep the same bullet weight, velocity, and muzzle energy, and it'll give you a smaller pistol with higher capacity." That's essentially how the .40 S&W was born.

10mm guys like me call it the ".40 Short and Weak" or ".40 Short and Wimpy" because it's based off of the load data from the FBI light load for the 10mm. Because based on a 10mm loaded to it's full potential (right around 800ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, sometimes more) the .40 is "short and wimpy" in comparison (around 500ft. lbs. of muzzle energy). I'm not saying the .40 is short and wimpy compared to 9mm. I'm merely saying that I see no point in personally owning a .40 and spending my hard earned money on the ammo when modern 9mm defensive ammo is just as effective, while offering higher mag capacity, and lower recoil. If you like the .40 (and I take it you do, since you've taken this discussion like I insulted your spouse), then good on you. Shoot what you like. That's why living in a (relatively) free country like the United States is so great: personal choice. After about 20 years experience with .40 Smith and Wesson in several different makes and models (GLOCKs, SIGs, Berettas, Smith and Wessons that I've personally owned), it's just not something that I personally want to own anymore. I don't see the point when 9mm, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto all have advantages over .40 S&W. Again, in my personal opinion based on my personal experience.

Guess what else I won't own after years of experience with them...GLOCKs. They're great, tough, reliable, reasonably accurate handguns, but they don't fit my hand well. I have to work harder to shoot well with them than I do other pistols. So I own H&K and SIG currently. SIGs, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas, and 1911s all work better for me than GLOCKs. In fact, H&K are really the only polymer framed handgun that I like. I usually prefer a metal framed pistol. There's no law that says I have to like what you like or that I'm wrong for not liking something. You do you, I'll do me.
 
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Exuvia

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I bought a Steyr M95 several years ago and I've really enjoyed the times I've been able to shoot it. The problem is that it's chambered for the original 8x50 which is basically impossible to find now and I don't have the money to invest in buying reloading equipment. I've been trying to find/trade for one of the M95s which were converted in the 30s to fire 8x56, which at least one company is currently making new cartridges of.
 

Particle Bored

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I bought a Steyr M95 several years ago and I've really enjoyed the times I've been able to shoot it. The problem is that it's chambered for the original 8x50 which is basically impossible to find now and I don't have the money to invest in buying reloading equipment. I've been trying to find/trade for one of the M95s which were converted in the 30s to fire 8x56, which at least one company is currently making new cartridges of.
Not being a gunsmith, that sounds like an easy job for a gunsmith.
 

Exuvia

kiwifarms.net
Not being a gunsmith, that sounds like an easy job for a gunsmith.
I suppose, but the gun is in such good condition that it almost feels profane to modify it. Though, at the end of the day, it's still my property and I don't need to consider whoever gets it after me. I'll definitely mull it over.
 

Duke Nukem

Leader of the Anti-Chad Extermination Squad
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If the .41 failed then they wouldn't have continued to make ammo or chamber guns for it. Just because something isn't as popular as something else doesn't mean it failed. It failed in its target market (law enforcement), but plenty of sportsmen, collectors, and self defense shooters kept it alive, just like the 10mm was kept alive for nearly 30 years before it started gaining popularity. .41 Mag will always be a niche cartridge, but it's hardly a complete failure.

You obviously don't know many Ten Mil guys. The .40 S&W was based on the 10mm. In the early 90s the FBI adopted the 10mm Auto to replace their .38s and 9mms after a disastrous shootout with a couple of guys in Miami (1988 I think?) where each of the bad guys took literally dozens of rounds of 9mm, .38, and even buckshot before they stopped shooting back. The FBI decided they needed to issue their agents with a more effective pistol/cartridge combo and with with the Smith and Wesson 1076 (used to own one that was a former FBI sidearm and I wish I still had it) in 10mm Auto. It was a big, single stack auto nearly the size of a 1911. The HRT even started using H&K MP5s chambered in 10mm. The problem was most FBI agents are citified college grads who have little-to-no experience with firearms before they enter the FBI academy, so many of them had a difficult time qualifying with such a powerful handgun. Federal was the ammunition company that was supplying the FBI with their duty ammo, and the FBI asked them to develop a special light load for their pistols, because their pussy agents couldn't handle the recoil. The problem was that every ammunition manufacturer that loaded 10mm started loading their 10mm offerings based on the FBI light load instead of loading the 10mm to it's full potential like they used to. So now the BI had this big, single stack, 1911-esque auto-loader, but were shooting cartridges that weren't that much better than .45 ACP. So Smith and Wesson analyzed the situation, approached the FBI and said "We can take the 10mm, cut the case down so it will fit in a 9mm sized pistol, but keep the same bullet weight, velocity, and muzzle energy, and it'll give you a smaller pistol with higher capacity." That's essentially how the .40 S&W was born.

10mm guys like me call it the ".40 Short and Weak" or ".40 Short and Wimpy" because it's based off of the load data from the FBI light load for the 10mm. Because based on a 10mm loaded to it's full potential (right around 800ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, sometimes more) the .40 is "short and wimpy" in comparison (around 500ft. lbs. of muzzle energy). I'm not saying the .40 is short and wimpy compared to 9mm. I'm merely saying that I see no point in personally owning a .40 and spending my hard earned money on the ammo when modern 9mm defensive ammo is just as effective, while offering higher mag capacity, and lower recoil. If you like the .40 (and I take it you do, since you've taken this discussion like I insulted your spouse), then good on you. Shoot what you like. That's why living in a (relatively) free country like the United States is so great: personal choice. After about 20 years experience with .40 Smith and Wesson in several different makes and models (GLOCKs, SIGs, Berettas, Smith and Wessons that I've personally owned), it's just not something that I personally want to own anymore. I don't see the point when 9mm, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto all have advantages over .40 S&W. Again, in my personal opinion based on my personal experience.

Guess what else I won't own after years of experience with them...GLOCKs. They're great, tough, reliable, reasonably accurate handguns, but they don't fit my hand well. I have to work harder to shoot well with them than I do other pistols. So I own H&K and SIG currently. SIGs, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas, and 1911s all work better for me than GLOCKs. In fact, H&K are really the only polymer framed handgun that I like. I usually prefer a metal framed pistol. There's no law that says I have to like what you like or that I'm wrong for not liking something. You do you, I'll do me.
Interesting reading, I agree that I find metal framed pistols more pleasing but I did pick up a couple of Polymer 80 frames. They are compatible with Gen 3 Glock parts but the grip feels closer to 1911 ergonomics. I'm waiting on a long .45 slide to become available for the bigger frame, but the 9mm frame looks and feels good too. I got a solid top Glock 34 type slide and I can't wait to go break it in. Not big on handguns personally but I figured why the hell not.

I also was reading about .357 Sig a while ago, and I kind of understand where you're coming from on the .40. The Sig is in fact a .40 case necked down to 9mm and doesn't seem to offer a lot of advantages either, but I dunno. Or .45 GAP even...does anybody use that!?
 
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The Dude

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Interesting reading, I agree that I find metal framed pistols more pleasing but I did pick up a couple of Polymer 80 frames. They are compatible with Gen 3 Glock parts but the grip feels closer to 1911 ergonomics. I'm waiting on a long .45 slide to become available for the bigger frame, but the 9mm frame looks and feels good too. I got a solid top Glock 34 type slide and I can't wait to go break it in. Not big on handguns personally but I figured why the hell not.

I also was reading about .357 Sig a while ago, and I kind of understand where you're coming from on the .40. The Sig is in fact a .40 case necked down to 9mm and doesn't seem to offer a lot of advantages either, but I dunno. Or .45 GAP even...does anybody use that!?
I believe the Secret Service and Federal Air Marshals, and I want to say the Massachusetts or Maryland Highway Patrol, use .357 SIG, but they don't really offer much over +P+ 9mm loaded with the same weight bullet (actually the same bullet), but like the. 40 S&W the .357 SIG has a high chamber pressure which translates into a loud report when fired, harsher recoil, and violent muzzle flip. The whole point was to replicate the performance of the 1254gr .357 Magnum load in a high-capacity auto-loader. It does just fine in that loading, but the other loads are pretty mediocre. Like I said, you can get very similar performance by buying +P+ 9mm loads, have lower recoil, higher capacity, more versatility, and less expensive ammo.

A few departments adopted .45 GAP (I want to say DC Police did, but I could be wrong), but it is pretty much a disappointment otherwise. Most people who go with a .45 will stick with the tried and true .45 ACP. Its widely available, has more options for loads, and is more affordable. .45 GAP was truly a cartridge that no one asked for. I think less departments and agencies actually adopted .45 GAP than departments and agencies who adopted .357 SIG. The logic is sound: why adopt a niche cartridge that's going to cost more and have lower availability than popular, tried and true cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP?

There are a lot of interesting articles about the history behind the development and adoption of these cartridges, including info on which law enforcement departments and agencies who issue them. This kind of stuff has always interested me because of my Dad working in law enforcement. He was issued several different sidearms in a variety of cartridges during his career. He worked for two different agencies beginning in the 80s. He started out with a S&W Model 10 in .38spcl for one agency, and a S&W 686 in .357 Magnum for the other. That Smith Model 10 eventually became a S&W 9mm (forget the model), then a stainless 3rd Gen S&W 9mm, then a S&W Sigma in .40 S&W, and finally a 3rd Gen GLOCK 23. The other agency he hung on to the 686 into the late 90s (it was his favorite sidearm that he was ever issued), until they went with the Beretta 96D Brigadier in .40 S&W (which he HATED). They were just doing away with the Beretta 96s in favor of H&Ks and SIGs in .40 S&W when my Dad retired. So I've always had an interest in the history of what cartridges get adopted for law enforcement use, what departments/agencies end up adopting for their standard issue sidearms, and why they decided to adopt the pistols and cartridges they did.
 

Damocles_Sword

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+P+ can get up to the 40,000 psi of the .357 sig, but there really isn't a spec for it, and +P+ ammo varies WIDELY in terms of pressure and performance. The biggest problem though is finding a 9mm built to handle it. You'll destroy your gun if you shoot the stuff regularly, and if you only use it for personal defense, you won't be accustomed to it. It's better to train with the load you're going to (hopefully not have to) use.

.357 sig has it's problems, too. Aside from the ammo being more expensive, it tends to have a bitch of a muzzle flash. I have a glock 31 and the thing just spits fireballs. The recoil is noticeably stronger, but it's not in the realm of uncontrollable by any measure. I grew up shooting grandpa's old 1911, so it didn't take too much to adjust to it. It's also the only round I use a loading tool on. I think it's a quirk with the necks of the round and the geometry of the glock mag. When loading a mag, and you get 12 or 13 rounds in, if you start the next round on the neck of the top cartridge you might not get enough leverage on the top round to move the magazine follower. Saying that, i'm about 6000 rounds into it and I've never encountered a feed or reliability issue. It's been a fun gun to shoot, and I trust my life to it.
 

Duke Nukem

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I believe the Secret Service and Federal Air Marshals, and I want to say the Massachusetts or Maryland Highway Patrol, use .357 SIG, but they don't really offer much over +P+ 9mm loaded with the same weight bullet (actually the same bullet), but like the. 40 S&W the .357 SIG has a high chamber pressure which translates into a loud report when fired, harsher recoil, and violent muzzle flip. The whole point was to replicate the performance of the 1254gr .357 Magnum load in a high-capacity auto-loader. It does just fine in that loading, but the other loads are pretty mediocre. Like I said, you can get very similar performance by buying +P+ 9mm loads, have lower recoil, higher capacity, more versatility, and less expensive ammo.

A few departments adopted .45 GAP (I want to say DC Police did, but I could be wrong), but it is pretty much a disappointment otherwise. Most people who go with a .45 will stick with the tried and true .45 ACP. Its widely available, has more options for loads, and is more affordable. .45 GAP was truly a cartridge that no one asked for. I think less departments and agencies actually adopted .45 GAP than departments and agencies who adopted .357 SIG. The logic is sound: why adopt a niche cartridge that's going to cost more and have lower availability than popular, tried and true cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP?

There are a lot of interesting articles about the history behind the development and adoption of these cartridges, including info on which law enforcement departments and agencies who issue them. This kind of stuff has always interested me because of my Dad working in law enforcement. He was issued several different sidearms in a variety of cartridges during his career. He worked for two different agencies beginning in the 80s. He started out with a S&W Model 10 in .38spcl for one agency, and a S&W 686 in .357 Magnum for the other. That Smith Model 10 eventually became a S&W 9mm (forget the model), then a stainless 3rd Gen S&W 9mm, then a S&W Sigma in .40 S&W, and finally a 3rd Gen GLOCK 23. The other agency he hung on to the 686 into the late 90s (it was his favorite sidearm that he was ever issued), until they went with the Beretta 96D Brigadier in .40 S&W (which he HATED). They were just doing away with the Beretta 96s in favor of H&Ks and SIGs in .40 S&W when my Dad retired. So I've always had an interest in the history of what cartridges get adopted for law enforcement use, what departments/agencies end up adopting for their standard issue sidearms, and why they decided to adopt the pistols and cartridges they did.
Very nice and informative post! I've been looking at some +P+ loads, and I managed to pick up a box of NATO 9mm made by Sig to break in a 9mm AR pistol I am making (with a 10.5 inch barrel). It just needs a bolt and maybe some cosmetic fixes but it seems to work OK. I put airsoft HK416 sights on it for shits and giggles. Sadly I don't know of any roller delayed 9mm AR bolts to complete the deal. I've looked at the .357 Sig out of a little interest, but I found that it just generally isn't around much so 9mm it is.

As of right now, I've developed a keen interest in battle rifles. Been looking up information on the G3 and FN FAL but I'm probably going to stick to Cetme/G3 because magazines are cheaper and I already have a parts kit and other components.

Definitely an interesting read though.
 

The Dude

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Very nice and informative post! I've been looking at some +P+ loads, and I managed to pick up a box of NATO 9mm made by Sig to break in a 9mm AR pistol I am making (with a 10.5 inch barrel). It just needs a bolt and maybe some cosmetic fixes but it seems to work OK. I put airsoft HK416 sights on it for shits and giggles. Sadly I don't know of any roller delayed 9mm AR bolts to complete the deal. I've looked at the .357 Sig out of a little interest, but I found that it just generally isn't around much so 9mm it is.

As of right now, I've developed a keen interest in battle rifles. Been looking up information on the G3 and FN FAL but I'm probably going to stick to Cetme/G3 because magazines are cheaper and I already have a parts kit and other components.

Definitely an interesting read though.
I'm a .308 guy. I own two, an LMT MWS308 and a Mk14 Mod0 built off an LRB barreled action completely to milspec (aside from not having a giggle switch). That being said, I always wanted an HK style roller locked .308. I wanted to get an HK11/G8 style rifle. The G8 version of HK11 had a fixed magazine well instead of the removable magwell of the normal HK11 so that it could be converted to a belt fed HK21. There's a company called Michael's Machines who makes HK11 and HK21 style rifles (excellent transferable sere hosts) that are every bit as good as genuine HK. He uses genuine HK parts as much as possible, and his welds are actually better than HK. Since the HK11 and HK21 are light machine guns/squad automatic weapons, they have quick change barrels. My plan was to get a carbine length barrel and a longer match barrel, plus have different butt sticks, trigger groups, and have an optics rail so that I could set the rifle up for different roles. I just never managed to get the money raised to do it, so I'm doing basically the same thing with my MWS308.

But, yeah, I totally dig HK. I love my Mark 23 pistol.
 
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