Mega Rad Gun Thread -

Prompt Critical

apropos-of-nothing
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You must be in Canada because I have never for the life of me seen a SVT in the wild but from what I hear they sent a shitton up North and they were going for pretty cheap like sub $1000. Something to do with the import laws on milsurp firearms, also they get those Norinco M1A clones that can be hit or miss but you get what you pay for.
Northeast USA here. SVT-40s have become one of those things (like Type 2 "Paratrooper" takedown Arisakas, G43s, scoped M1C/M1D Garands, Johnson rifles, etc.) that can usually be found at large gun shows, but with insane price tags that ensure no one would actually buy them. If I was more cynical I'd suggest that guns like that are only brought out to shows to flex your personal collection on the poors, but maybe they see it as a way to generate interest in traffic for their table. I've probably seen at least five SVT-40s in the last few months at shows.

There were probably two dozen SVT-40s, and at least one unicorn SVT-38, sold in RIAC's most recent sporting & collector auction for similarly outrageous prices.

I have also heard they're more common in Canada but cannot personally confirm. If so, the Canadians do not deserve them.
 

MrJokerRager

I like me some nice big boobs
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In my personal opinion the M44 carbine (short length version with fixed side-folding bayonet) is the coolest of the post-WWI Mosin variants. Although if you've never shot something with a such a short barrel that fires a full power rifle round, I'd recommend if at all possible you try shooting one belonging to somebody else before you buy one. Not everybody enjoys the experience.

From what I've seen in US northeast market, the going rate is about $300 for a round receiver Mosin M91/30 in good condition, and about $400 for an M38 or M44. If someone is charging more than that, they're probably trying to gouge you unless the gun they have for sale is an unusual example with more desirable/rare features.

If you post what specific things he has you were interested in, and the amounts asked, I can give a rough guess as to if it's a fair price or not, as well as some pointers on what to look for if buying one.

I mentioned a bit back in the thread, but the price of M91/30 and other Mosin-Nagants has absolutely skyrocketed in the last few years, to the point where they're no longer a good cheap entry point to get into surplus collecting. There are much better options now in the same approximate price range.
This is his collection for sale. I also dig the Lee Enfield but it was made in India in the 1960s according to what the clerk told me. Also has a original mauser and a communist yugoslavia mauser.

Also to settle the debate, is the AK-47 based off the STG-44 or the Mosin Nagant? I have read different accounts of how the famous rifle came into existence and the clerk believed its based of the STG-44.

20200223_120610 (1).jpg
 

millais

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I've never shot an M44, but I have heard that the muzzle flash and report, to say nothing of the recoil, are insane compared to the full length M91/30. You see lots of photos of Soviet frontoviks carrying the M44 around in late war urban combat like in Berlin, but I can only imagine that they'd be rendered completely blind and deaf trying to fire one of those things indoors.

There's definitely something to be said for having a long enough barrel length to burn off most of the powder and enough mass to give some inertial dampening to the recoil. I imagine that is a big part of the reasoning behind why many countries standardized on the "short" or "universal" rifle (ie midway between carbine and full length)
 
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Prompt Critical

apropos-of-nothing
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This is his collection for sale. I also dig the Lee Enfield but it was made in India in the 1960s according to what the clerk told me. Also has a original mauser and a communist yugoslavia mauser.
As a general rule, seeing that $424.99 tag on what appears to be a regular old Mosin 91/30 makes me think you should probably avoid the place. That is an absolutely delusional price.

Postwar Indian Enfields (made by Rifle Factory Ishapore and marked "R.F.I.") are generally not very well thought of by collectors, with a poor reputation for fit/finish. They're probably the most obtainable and affordable Enfield pattern gun, though. Don't pay full price for one. If you decide you want an Enfield there's a long list of things you should check, which I can elaborate on in an effortpost although I think British Muzzleloaders or one of the other anglo historical gun youtubers did a pretty good in-depth special about inspecting Enfield rifles before buying.

"Yugoslavian Mauser" typically refers specifically to the postwar Zastava M48. They're an interesting Mauser action variant, much closer to the Belgian FN Model 24 than the German Karabiner 98k they're usually advertised as being a copy of. Build quality is usually quite good, and they tend to be in very good condition because they were rarely used and apparently carefully maintained in storage. They're one of the best bargain milsurp bolt actions you can get right now, as the market for them is very saturated due to a large volume of recent imports, and they're not considered "cool" in the same way WWII-era Mauser action guns tend to be. You can probably snag one for $350-450 and I'd consider that a good value.

I've never shot an M44, but I have heard that the muzzle flash and report, to say nothing of the recoil, are insane compared to the full length M91/30.
Quite correct. All full power short military rifles of that type (M38 and M44 Mosin carbines, Mannlicher M.95 "Stutzen" carbines, Berthier Mousquetons, No. 5 Mk. I Enfields, etc.) tend to be pretty brutal as far as recoil and muzzle blast go. The M.95 is in my opinion the worst of the lot in that regard, but the M38/M44 Mosin is a close second. Some people (like me) think that makes them more fun to shoot, but for others they're just unpleasant, which is why I always recommend trying a gun of that type before you buy.

Edit to add:

Also to settle the debate, is the AK-47 based off the STG-44 or the Mosin Nagant? I have read different accounts of how the famous rifle came into existence and the clerk believed its based of the STG-44.
 
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Club Sandwich

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Went to a gun store recently and learned that you can have pistol grips on AR style rifles if they fire 22lr ammo.

Also the guy sells mosins and other ww2 rifles if the 400 to 600 dollar range. Is the Mosin full barrel or the carbine better?
i'm assuming you live in a state (like California) that has a prohibition on pistol grips on semi-automatic centerfire rifles. the key word there is centerfire. .22LR is not centerfire, ergo you can generally have whatever "evil features" you would like on it, as long as it meets other regulations. likewise a manual action rifle can have a pistol grip even if it's centerfire.

what you must be careful of is making sure that you meet other assault weapon laws as defined in your jurisdiction - overall length, prohibited features, magazine size and design, et c.

$400-$600 is probably a bit too much for a 91/30 in average condition but decent for a shooter condition Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk III or a 7mm Mauser export rifle (1909 Brazilian for example or a Turkish contract 8mm). none of these would be collectible, really, but would be excellent and inexpensive hunting rifles.

you can find good condition 91/30 Mosin-Nagant rifles (say, Spanish Civil War surplus) for under $400 if you shop around.
Yeah assault weapon regs only cover centerfire, not 22LR. Also a note re: Club Sandwich's comments above, if you're in california (given your mention of pistol grips) all NFS items (e.g. barrels shorter than 16") are banned, and AR pistols are assault weapons (and all AR receivers are automatically registered as "'rifles").
not quite true. it's possible to create a .22LR "assault weapon" if it's a pistol with a magazine outside the grip, or a rimfire AR receiver you made yourself and registered as a pistol that has a fixed magazine of 10 rounds or less, and so on.

AR receivers are not automatically registered as anything in CA (barring the importation declaration or the manufacturer doing the transfer to another manufacturer or to a dealer). you can transfer them as an a pistol, a rifle, or as an "other".

however the problem arises with the CA DOJ's roster of approved handguns for sale. it only affects transfers from dealers, not firearms you manufacture yourself into a pistol... however with the passage of AB-857 you have compulsory markings that you must apply to the DOJ to receive and then apply to the pistol which you must then build within 30 days into a compliant pistol configuration, following all other applicable laws.

even then, there is some dubiousness as such a pistol can very easy fall into "assault weapon" definitions as it has a pistol grip and has a magazine outside that grip and assuming the builder follows typical AR-15 conventions and parts, it would be semi-automatic. you would have to have a fixed magazine ("requiring disassembly of the action") of 10 rounds or less and no ability to accept more than 10 rounds, which is taken to mean it can't look like a normal magazine with a false lower area or something.

This is his collection for sale. I also dig the Lee Enfield but it was made in India in the 1960s according to what the clerk told me. Also has a original mauser and a communist yugoslavia mauser.
the only good deal on that rack is the Vz.24 for $350. the rest is either retail average (Zastava M48 for $500), slightly overpriced "for convenience" which can be reasonable or not depending on where you are (Mosin-Nagant 91/30 for $430 is okay assuming it's in very good shape with some accessories), to very overpriced (that's a very rough looking Indian Lee-Enfield for $500, and it's missing the magazine too).
Also to settle the debate, is the AK-47 based off the STG-44 or the Mosin Nagant? I have read different accounts of how the famous rifle came into existence and the clerk believed its based of the STG-44.
the original AK-47 is mechanically closer to the M1 Garand and many design cues from the StG. 44. it had no relation to the Simonov designs or Degtyaryov who also were contemporaries doing weapons design. the long stroke gas piston and the bolt and receiver rails and machining plans are very similar to the action of the M1 Garand, while the breech block and magazine (and sturmgewehr concept) originated with the StG. 44. Sergei Mosin and even less Leon Nagant had nothing to do with it.
 
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Tour of Italy

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I build out my first lower last weekend. Couple scratches on the finish, but nothing too terrible. No broken or lost parts, mag seats well, hammer works, I’m really pretty happy with myself, it was a great experience.

The only thing I’m paranoid about are the trigger and hammer pins, because only one of the three guides told me what side to put in first, and even then it was unclear. I didn’t even think of it until after the buffer tube was installed (not staked though, I’m not doing that till I know the fucker actually works). The trigger works smoothly for now, but I’ll keep an eye on it. No I haven’t been dry firing it, just pulling the trigger while holding the hammer and walking it down.

Now to just wait until I can afford an upper. I’m probably going to just a get a completed upper for simplicity, but I still intend to dig in there and really get a feel for how it works.

the original AK-47 is mechanically closer to the M1 Garand and many design cues from the StG. 44. it had no relation to the Simonov designs or Degtyaryov who also were contemporaries doing weapons design. the long stroke gas piston and the bolt and receiver rails and machining plans are very similar to the action of the M1 Garand, while the breech block and magazine (and sturmgewehr concept) originated with the StG. 44. Sergei Mosin and even less Leon Nagant had nothing to do with
@MrJokerRager


There was a WWII era Czech rifle that likely influenced the design as well, at least in terms of the mechanics. The STG-44’s contribution was mainly its design philosophy; a more manageable intermediate cartridge that could be reasonably effective in fully automatic fire. The Soviets developed the AK as a successor to their line of sub-machine guns and some documents even show they referred to it as one. Their combat doctrine emphasized volume of fire as opposed to individual marksmanship, and the STG was the first weapon they faced that took the idea to heart, while still being very effective at typical combat ranges where pistol caliber SMG’s struggled.
 
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Particle Bored

I am made out of toothpicks and glue
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i'm assuming you live in a state (like California) that has a prohibition on pistol grips on semi-automatic centerfire rifles. the key word there is centerfire. .22LR is not centerfire, ergo you can generally have whatever "evil features" you would like on it, as long as it meets other regulations. likewise a manual action rifle can have a pistol grip even if it's centerfire.

what you must be careful of is making sure that you meet other assault weapon laws as defined in your jurisdiction - overall length, prohibited features, magazine size and design, et c.

not quite true. it's possible to create a .22LR "assault weapon" if it's a pistol with a magazine outside the grip, or a rimfire AR receiver you made yourself and registered as a pistol that has a fixed magazine of 10 rounds or less, and so on.

AR receivers are not automatically registered as anything in CA (barring the importation declaration or the manufacturer doing the transfer to another manufacturer or to a dealer). you can transfer them as an a pistol, a rifle, or as an "other".

however the problem arises with the CA DOJ's roster of approved handguns for sale. it only affects transfers from dealers, not firearms you manufacture yourself into a pistol... however with the passage of AB-857 you have compulsory markings that you must apply to the DOJ to receive and then apply to the pistol which you must then build within 30 days into a compliant pistol configuration, following all other applicable laws.

even then, there is some dubiousness as such a pistol can very easy fall into "assault weapon" definitions as it has a pistol grip and has a magazine outside that grip and assuming the builder follows typical AR-15 conventions and parts, it would be semi-automatic. you would have to have a fixed magazine ("requiring disassembly of the action") of 10 rounds or less and no ability to accept more than 10 rounds, which is taken to mean it can't look like a normal magazine with a false lower area or something.
True. I should have been more specific: my understanding is that all new AR lowers sold by dealers in California are DROS'd as rifles. So I dont think you can build a pistol off a store-bought lower. Theres also the regs against "manufacturing an unsafe handgun" for home-built semiautos.

Also true re: 22lr AR pistol "assault weapons." I was thinking in terms of rifles.

I build out my first lower last weekend. Couple scratches on the finish, but nothing too terrible. No broken or lost parts, mag seats well, hammer works, I’m really pretty happy with myself, it was a great experience.

The only thing I’m paranoid about are the trigger and hammer pins, because only one of the three guides told me what side to put in first, and even then it was unclear. I didn’t even think of it until after the buffer tube was installed (not staked though, I’m not doing that till I know the fucker actually works). The trigger works smoothly for now, but I’ll keep an eye on it. No I haven’t been dry firing it, just pulling the trigger while holding the hammer and walking it down.

Now to just wait until I can afford an upper. I’m probably going to just a get a completed upper for simplicity, but I still intend to dig in there and really get a feel for how it works.
I dont think it matters which order/side you do the pins.
 
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Club Sandwich

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The only thing I’m paranoid about are the trigger and hammer pins, because only one of the three guides told me what side to put in first, and even then it was unclear.
I dont think it matters which order/side you do the pins.
the pins are traditionally installed right to left (and removed left to right, although there are many exceptions). the trigger and hammer pins for the AR have two grooves: a center groove for major alignment and retention, and an offset (to one side) groove for retention. the offset groove is traditionally on the left hand side of the receiver, but it's only purpose is for the hammer spring to help hold the trigger pin in place as the trigger pin (more so than the hammer pin) can walk out if the trigger pin's hole is severely worn and allows the trigger to misalign, locking up the weapon into an unsafe condition.
my understanding is that all new AR lowers sold by dealers in California are DROS'd as rifles. So I dont think you can build a pistol off a store-bought lower.
not true: they can be "other" or rifles, but never a pistol as there are no AR-15 stripped lower pistols on the roster of safe handguns other than the Franklin Arms model 3130 and 3151 and 3153. the exception stems from people being exempt from the roster requirement, in which case you can transfer a stripped lower (that must still be "off-list") as a pistol. it is the dealer's choice if they mark an AR-15 as a rifle or not, but it's much easier to do so probably (it's literally 1 less form they fill out as part of their CAFL bookkeeping which tracks "other" firearm transfers because CA is paranoid about ghost guns).

i am a California manufacturer/dealer
 

Petey Wheatstraw

kiwifarms.net
a fairly "correct" one would be a model 733/735, possibly with an older xm177 from Troy or something: https://retrorifles.com/colt-733-commando-735-c8-6933-movies-black-hawk-down-heat/

i used, and still use a rather retro (now at least) early 80's model 733 as a handy carbine. it is quite loud in doors, but is small enough that it will not feel "big" to new shooters. be aware that you should try to use an H or heavier buffer depending on the precise gas system (gas port size, position, et c) for the barrel you are purchasing. the model 733 never had consistent specifications and over the years of production would be seen with A1, A1E1, and A2 parts with only a handful of unique parts (pencil profile 10.5 to 11.5 barrel, FSB with the bayonet lug milled off, single heat shield carbine handguards, two or four position carbine buffer tubes, et c).

Brownell's has a pretty competitive one in their retro line as well: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/xm177e2-upper-receivers-complete-5-56-prod123698.aspx

if you are looking for a more modern M16 Commando, you would want to review model 933 uppers, which are less expensive since the parts are produced in greater quantities than the older patterns. lots of clones out there, most being high quality (considering the two important criteria are an 11.5" barrel in a "pencil" profile: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-11-5-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-upper-with-bcg-charging-handle.html

.300 AAC Blackout would require a new barrel in 1:10 or for bullets heavier than 180gr, 1:8, readily available from quality retailers.
Thanks for suggestions! I would build a pistol but right now that's off the table as I'm looking to build something that doesn't involve tax stamps. Are there longer options out there that look something like, say, a Model 723?
 

Club Sandwich

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Are there longer options out there that look something like, say, a Model 723?
it's actually easier to build a model 723 and 727 (or something between the two) and fairly cheap too:
1. any A2 spec lower with gen 2 or 3 "fiberlite" stock with four or 6 position buffer tube and H buffer
2. any A2 spec upper such as a brownell or DPMS upper and add an appropriate barrel assembly and upper parts kit or purchase one already assembled for cheap: https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00173dt1022/16inch-pre-ban-a2-with-carry-handle-complete-upper-assembly-light-weight-barrel
3. snap together and install your lower parts, ensuring compliance with all applicable laws
4. go shoot

note that del-ton is a mediocre manufacturer and about as "cheap" as i would get and still have confidence to sell to someone that might use it for all purposes. going further "down the scale" would turn it more into a target/range type gun than something dependable for hunting or defense. the 1:9 barrel would be convenient as it'll be correct for most bullet lengths you would typically shoot (unless you want some very heavy bullets or tracers or something). and it would look the part.

a model 723 would use a C7 (A1E1 upper) and an A1 profile carbine barrel, while a model 727 would use an M4 profile barrel and A2 upper. it wasn't uncommon for police departments or some export countries to have an A2 upper and A1 carbine barrel (Israel for example or Saudi Arabia) because they didn't plan on using the M203 at all.
 

MrJokerRager

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Decide which of these budget items should I get as I am a budget wagie currently at the moment. I asked the guy if the full barrel mosin nagant makes a good home defense weapon and he told me the 7.62x54R has enough power to kill the fuck but also go through his head and into the house next door.





 

Kamov Ka-52

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Decide which of these budget items should I get as I am a budget wagie currently at the moment. I asked the guy if the full barrel mosin nagant makes a good home defense weapon and he told me the 7.62x54R has enough power to kill the fuck but also go through his head and into the house next door.





Just get a 10/22 nigga. Mosins are a terrible choice for home defense, they will absolutely overpenatrate.

Also, since people have been talking about purchasing Mosins here's a handy infographic:
5C_-_Mosin_Nagant.png
 
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millais

The Yellow Rose of Victoria, Texas
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Decide which of these budget items should I get as I am a budget wagie currently at the moment. I asked the guy if the full barrel mosin nagant makes a good home defense weapon and he told me the 7.62x54R has enough power to kill the fuck but also go through his head and into the house next door.





lol if you are living in suburb or urban area, full power rifle cartridge is a little dangerous for home invasion scenario. Firstly, you'll likely give yourself a measurable amount of permanent hearing damage from firing in an enclosed indoor space without ear protection, and secondly the overpenetration is a major liability to other innocent people in your home or neighboring homes.

I believe you can mitigate overpenetration to a degree by using lead-tipped/expanding point rounds, but it's still going to cut through drywall like butter unless it goes through some other substantial mass first.
 

Prompt Critical

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The "how to check a bore" in the guide posted above is good general advice for purchasing any military surplus firearm. For bolt action rifles, it can be helpful to take the bolt out of the gun first - ask seller to show you how if you're uncomfortable doing it yourself, the exact process varies for different models of rifle. The Mosin is one of the easiest, as you just unlock and open the bolt, then hold down the trigger and pull the bolt straight backwards out of the receiver.

Please, do not buy a full power bolt action military surplus rifle for home defense. That would be a terrible idea - in addition to the potential for irreparable hearing damage from discharging one in an enclosed space, and the fact that the round will overpenetrate and potentially injure or kill other people (as has already been mentioned), these weapons are huge, heavy and unwieldy (the M91/30 is 48.5" long and weighs almost 9lbs empty!), slow to load and operate even when you're not in a stressful situation or in the dark, etc. etc. etc.

I honestly can't think of something commercially available that would be a worse choice than a weapon of this type for home defense, aside from a totally unserious meme option like a Barrett M82 (which would have all the same problems, just more so).
 

Club Sandwich

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Decide which of these budget items should I get as I am a budget wagie currently at the moment. I asked the guy if the full barrel mosin nagant makes a good home defense weapon and he told me the 7.62x54R has enough power to kill the fuck but also go through his head and into the house next door.





between a S&W M&P 15-22 and a Mossberg 715T, i would promote the S&W as it is functionally similar to a standard AR-15 and has greater parts compatibility with aftermarket parts. the Mossberg is alright, but a bit more ammunition sensitive (in my experience) and also doesn't share a manual of arms with an AR-15 which i assume you will get at some point in the future.

i really hope you are not planning on using a .22LR as a home defense weapon.

an inexpensive used 9mm pistol like a police trade in glock would be ideal as you would be able to purchase one inexpensively, train with it inexpensively, it has a vast aftermarket available, and if it comes time to use it, they are rugged, simple, dependable - and doesn't typically set off any "alarm bells" of a jury panel. it also helps that during the investigation, while your pistol is seized, you aren't out much money and can just buy another one or something like a Maverick 88 or a used Mossberg 500.
 

Club Sandwich

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I really want to get a Israeli FAL and Uzi to go with my Galil.
don't let your dreams be dreams. UZI flats and kits are going to be spiking in price in the next 2 years, and Israeli FAL/FALO parts kits are going to start getting rarer. Israeli FALs, despite having some mixed parts, are largely metric and if you aren't too keen on parts accuracy, but the overall look, you can still find most of the parts for a conversion floating around FALFiles and places like APEX or RobertRTG.
 
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ulsterscotsman

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don't let your dreams be dreams. UZI flats and kits are going to be spiking in price in the next 2 years, and Israeli FAL/FALO parts kits are going to start getting rarer. Israeli FALs, despite having some mixed parts, are largely metric and if you aren't too keen on parts accuracy, but the overall look, you can still find most of the parts for a conversion floating around FALFiles and places like APEX or RobertRTG.
Complete deactivated Uzi's are easy to get over here but Israeli or any variant of FAL for that matter are very hard to get. L1A1 SLRs are the easiest to find but they're alway nearly £1000+.
 
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