Metal Gear -

Dom Cruise

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I personally like to just pretend the series ended with Snake Eater to be honest, it's just simpler and easier that way.

Starting with 4 the story becomes just such a convoluted mess, too many things pulled out of Kojima's ass, that I just have a hard time accepting it all even though I wish I could, but now I see the wisdom in Kojima originally wanting to leave things mysterious and up to your imagination instead of, ya know, a convoluted mess.

I can see the potential in The Phantom Pain, I love the gameplay but the story in that is almost hilariously messy, it's really too bad because it had the potential to be the Symphony of the Night for Metal Gear, breathing new life into a well worn Konami franchise by turning what was once linear into something open ended, but it just didn't pull it off and ultimately proved how badly the series needed to be retired.

I can at best consider the post Snake Eater games a sort of "what if" soft canon, but for me the "hard canon" ends with Snake Eater.
 

gangweedfan

8888888888888
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I just beat mgs4 for the first time! (spoilers obviously) despite the hate it seems to get I think I loved it just as much as the other games. my main problem isnt that there are too many cutscenes its that the script needed to be improved imo. like I find it hard to care about ocelot wanting to destroy the patriots when the patriots are way worse than him. there wasnt much about why that was bad other than a line about him enslaving the human race. and I was disappointed we never heard from GW or JD again. also fuck whoever uploaded the "snake meets big boss" video on youtube because it spoiled the ending for me just from reading the title.

as for my personal headcannon I think that the patriots let Naomi kill them. to me it seems like the 4 AIs are a refrence to the 4 world controllers in the famous sci-fi book I Robot (NOT the movie). and if you read the rest of the robot series you would know that they eventually shut themselves down on purpose.
 

MrJokerRager

I like me some nice big boobs
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Ground Zeros had serious potential to be a standalone game or better, just should have combined both games and then released it properly as one whole game as its competitor Witcher 3 did. Kojima really screwed the pooch on not making the game leagues better than it was.


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Look at some of these trailers and there is definite a lot of stuff cut out or changed.






 
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AnaV

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Have any of you guys beat any Metal Gear game on Hard or Extreme, I just finished my MGS1 hard and it was extremely satisfying.
 

Exbein

I'm not Huckebein
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I finished MGS3 on hard first, unlike the rest of the series with selectable difficulty. died probably around 40+ times.
 
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Duncan Hills Coffee

Oww, my byaaack
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A while back I played through 2 and 3 on Hard. It wasn't too bad honestly, though I don't want to play through 2 again on Hard only because the bomb locations were annoying (the one on the conveyor belts in Strut E can fuck off).

I don't plan on doing 1 on Hard because that one removes the radar and the torture sequence is way worse. I think I started 4 on Hard but never finished.
 
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XYZpdq

fbi most wanted sskealeaton
True & Honest Fan
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Have any of you guys beat any Metal Gear game on Hard or Extreme, I just finished my MGS1 hard and it was extremely satisfying.
I went through getting all the dog tags in MGS2;S, I forget if I finished the hardest difficulty but I know I got everybody before hardest.
 

The handsome tard

Currently targeting Bill Gates, you are welcome!
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You know, have you guys ever felt like Kojima deep down regretted killing Liquid off in MGS1? Seriously, MGS2,3 and 4 were all about justifying his "return" through Liquid Ocelot, with K-Man changing his mind every second

MGS 2 - Liquid somehow possesses Ocelot with his arm (his voice even changed to Cam Clarke)
MGS 3 - Liquid possesses Ocelot because of his supernatural connection with The Sorrow, so Ocelot kind of became a "key" of sorts for Liquid
MGS 4 -"Lolz, I faked it all yo!", aparently psycho-therapy and nanomachines (son) were the reason (and suddenly he isnt voiced by Cam anymore)

Aparently, get this, Liquid truly controlled Ocelot but after fleeting Arsenal Gear on Ray, Ocelot somehow took control back, removed the arm and then decided to fake his liquid possession for now on while sporting a fake arm...Kojima truly was writing this on the fly, wasnt he?

Dont even get me started on him bringing Kid Liquid in MGS 5 when it kind of doesnt make sense if you truly think about it, since Liquid did seem to imply that Big Boss had a bigger presence in his life and that he had a good reason to hate him for whatever reason. MGS 5 showed them together for a brief period (again, taking in account Liquid didnt know it wasnt his real father) and Liquid aparently was a prick from day 1 that hated everyone and everything (so any dickish behavior from Big Boss was justified). But hey, it was funny to see the voice actor trying to sound like a younger Cam Clarke so there was that (and aparently kid liquid was already sporting his shirtless ripped look way back when).

Sometimes I wondered if K-Man didnt just want to make a Liquid Snake game (which I guess could be interesting playing as an outright evil bastard for a change)

I personally like to just pretend the series ended with Snake Eater to be honest, it's just simpler and easier that way.

Starting with 4 the story becomes just such a convoluted mess, too many things pulled out of Kojima's ass, that I just have a hard time accepting it all even though I wish I could, but now I see the wisdom in Kojima originally wanting to leave things mysterious and up to your imagination instead of, ya know, a convoluted mess.

I can see the potential in The Phantom Pain, I love the gameplay but the story in that is almost hilariously messy, it's really too bad because it had the potential to be the Symphony of the Night for Metal Gear, breathing new life into a well worn Konami franchise by turning what was once linear into something open ended, but it just didn't pull it off and ultimately proved how badly the series needed to be retired.

I can at best consider the post Snake Eater games a sort of "what if" soft canon, but for me the "hard canon" ends with Snake Eater.
Yeah but it just left soo many questions that would only feel like K-Man didnt have an answer so he just shrugged his shoulders and said for us to make it up ourselves. For as flawed as MGS4 is, I still give it credit it concluded the series, not perfectly but it still gave it a mostly satisfying conclusion that didnt leave room for unnecessary sequels (Revengence obviously not withstanding). The issue to me was trying to expand on Big Boss a bit too much with Peace Walker and MGS 5. Its like we suddenly had to see every step of the way until he became the Big Boss we know from the MSX duology, except even in MGS 5 we didnt. It almost feels like Kojima is afraid of making Big Boss evil when not only it feels plot-wise justified and inevitable but it still feels like Big boss from MGS 3-5 isnt the same one. I feel like Kojima enjoyed writing Big Boss more than Snake because it just felt like the series orbited him more than the latter after MGS 3. Solid just gets one more game and yet Big Boss gets all the spin offs and another major entry focused entirely on himself.

I guess thats why I feel like we needed to have a remake of MG1 and 2 so we can get to see Evil Big Boss done properly. And I know that his games are to show why he did it, to fight the Patriots and all but the other point is to show how his little war caused more damage than they did and that acts like raising child soldiers and war orphans to be his soldiers was something unquestionably evil and he was far too gone to care.

Its like finishing Star Wars ep 3 without anakin turning into Vader and just hinting it will happen at "some" point between 3 and 4 and you gotta watch spin offs and Ep 3.5 on the off chance that this could be the one where it happens.
 

Dom Cruise

kiwifarms.net
Have any of you guys beat any Metal Gear game on Hard or Extreme, I just finished my MGS1 hard and it was extremely satisfying.
Last time I played through the series I played 2, 3 and 4 on hard, but not 1 because to me not having the radar is total bullshit, but I enjoyed the added challenge playing the other games on hard offered.

You know, have you guys ever felt like Kojima deep down regretted killing Liquid off in MGS1? Seriously, MGS2,3 and 4 were all about justifying his "return" through Liquid Ocelot, with K-Man changing his mind every second

MGS 2 - Liquid somehow possesses Ocelot with his arm (his voice even changed to Cam Clarke)
MGS 3 - Liquid possesses Ocelot because of his supernatural connection with The Sorrow, so Ocelot kind of became a "key" of sorts for Liquid
MGS 4 -"Lolz, I faked it all yo!", aparently psycho-therapy and nanomachines (son) were the reason (and suddenly he isnt voiced by Cam anymore)

Aparently, get this, Liquid truly controlled Ocelot but after fleeting Arsenal Gear on Ray, Ocelot somehow took control back, removed the arm and then decided to fake his liquid possession for now on while sporting a fake arm...Kojima truly was writing this on the fly, wasnt he?

Dont even get me started on him bringing Kid Liquid in MGS 5 when it kind of doesnt make sense if you truly think about it, since Liquid did seem to imply that Big Boss had a bigger presence in his life and that he had a good reason to hate him for whatever reason. MGS 5 showed them together for a brief period (again, taking in account Liquid didnt know it wasnt his real father) and Liquid aparently was a prick from day 1 that hated everyone and everything (so any dickish behavior from Big Boss was justified). But hey, it was funny to see the voice actor trying to sound like a younger Cam Clarke so there was that (and aparently kid liquid was already sporting his shirtless ripped look way back when).

Sometimes I wondered if K-Man didnt just want to make a Liquid Snake game (which I guess could be interesting playing as an outright evil bastard for a change)



Yeah but it just left soo many questions that would only feel like K-Man didnt have an answer so he just shrugged his shoulders and said for us to make it up ourselves. For as flawed as MGS4 is, I still give it credit it concluded the series, not perfectly but it still gave it a mostly satisfying conclusion that didnt leave room for unnecessary sequels (Revengence obviously not withstanding). The issue to me was trying to expand on Big Boss a bit too much with Peace Walker and MGS 5. Its like we suddenly had to see every step of the way until he became the Big Boss we know from the MSX duology, except even in MGS 5 we didnt. It almost feels like Kojima is afraid of making Big Boss evil when not only it feels plot-wise justified and inevitable but it still feels like Big boss from MGS 3-5 isnt the same one. I feel like Kojima enjoyed writing Big Boss more than Snake because it just felt like the series orbited him more than the latter after MGS 3. Solid just gets one more game and yet Big Boss gets all the spin offs and another major entry focused entirely on himself.

I guess thats why I feel like we needed to have a remake of MG1 and 2 so we can get to see Evil Big Boss done properly. And I know that his games are to show why he did it, to fight the Patriots and all but the other point is to show how his little war caused more damage than they did and that acts like raising child soldiers and war orphans to be his soldiers was something unquestionably evil and he was far too gone to care.

Its like finishing Star Wars ep 3 without anakin turning into Vader and just hinting it will happen at "some" point between 3 and 4 and you gotta watch spin offs and Ep 3.5 on the off chance that this could be the one where it happens.
I think when Kojima wrote MGS1 he did not necessarily write it with any sequels in mind, Metal Gear was a cult classic at best and Metal Gear 2 never even got a US release at all, so there was no indication he would ever be able to make another entry in the series, so he figured why not send Snake off with a grand finale?

But then the game was such a smash hit and that of course created problem when he was tasked with making a sequel.


Believe it or not MGSV may have indeed started life as a Liquid Snake game, there were early leaked screenshots featuring a blond protagonist that some speculated was Liquid.


The truth is I never would have accepted 2 not getting a direct follow up, so in some ways I'm glad we did, but I just wish we got something better than what we got.


And yes, the story still feels incomplete since we never got to see Big Boss's "Lord Vader, rise" moment, Metal Gear really broke our hearts in the long run, I wish things had turned out better.

But as with so many things in pop culture these days, we have to be thankful for what we did get instead of what we didn't, at least we got the awesomeness that is Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid 1-3 despite where things went from there, much the same with Silent Hill 1-3.
 

ProblematicUser420

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Kojima cant or doesnt want to follow series lore which is why the series gets ridiculously stupid the more it goes on. It's how we have an MGSV that literally doesnt fit anywhere in the timeline to the point it feels like a delusion or coma dream but even that wouldnt make sense if he came out and said it.

It's actually good we never got a MG 1 or 2 remake because he is incapable of writing Big Boss as a bad guy without fucking up his character like we saw with MGS Vs ending. And honestly we didnt need it. Peace Walkers ending was perfect as his "lord Vader rise" moment because of how minimalistic it was.
 

AnaV

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Is Metal Gear Solid Integral worth picking up. I’ve been wondering about it for a while now, and can anyone confirm it to be English friendly?
 

Duncan Hills Coffee

Oww, my byaaack
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You know, have you guys ever felt like Kojima deep down regretted killing Liquid off in MGS1? Seriously, MGS2,3 and 4 were all about justifying his "return" through Liquid Ocelot, with K-Man changing his mind every second

MGS 2 - Liquid somehow possesses Ocelot with his arm (his voice even changed to Cam Clarke)
MGS 3 - Liquid possesses Ocelot because of his supernatural connection with The Sorrow, so Ocelot kind of became a "key" of sorts for Liquid
MGS 4 -"Lolz, I faked it all yo!", aparently psycho-therapy and nanomachines (son) were the reason (and suddenly he isnt voiced by Cam anymore)
I believe he went on record to say that he wished he didn't kill him off so early. In fact, an early version of MGS2 saw him return and would have revealed that he faked his death from FoxDIE in the last game. This was thrown out though because the game was going to take place in the Middle East and rising tensions in the area made Kojima uncomfortable with setting the game there. Liquid's "return" was retained albeit by possession of Ocelot.

Sometimes I wondered if K-Man didnt just want to make a Liquid Snake game (which I guess could be interesting playing as an outright evil bastard for a change)
This was always sort of a dream game for me. Liquid has a history with the SAS that isn't explored outside of flavor text in MGS1. We know he was captured and held as prisoner for a few years but that's about it. I always wanted to see an MGS game that showed how Liquid became the cruel bastard we see him as in MGS1. It could have showed how Solid and Liquid's experiences differed and how it shaped them into who they are.
 
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The handsome tard

Currently targeting Bill Gates, you are welcome!
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I believe he went on record to say that he wished he didn't kill him off so early. In fact, an early version of MGS2 saw him return and would have revealed that he faked his death from FoxDIE in the last game. This was thrown out though because the game was going to take place in the Middle East and rising tensions in the area made Kojima uncomfortable with setting the game there. Liquid's "return" was retained albeit by possession of Ocelot.


This was always sort of a dream game for me. Liquid has a history with the SAS that isn't explored outside of flavor text in MGS1. We know he was captured and held as prisoner for a few years but that's about it. I always wanted to see an MGS game that showed how Liquid became the cruel bastard we see him as in MGS1. It could have showed how Solid and Liquid's experiences differed and how it shaped them into who they are.
You know what, given the insane amount of far fetched shit we have seen in this series, Liquid faking his death sounds rather very grounded and possible. Fuck, it might be stupid but what if Liquid was given Vamp's nanomachines ? Not only that would explain how Liquid survives...almost every scenario that should have killed him (like crashing the Hind D, taking rocket blasts to the face, getting beaten to a pulp then falling from a height that Solid cant survive from, getting shot multiple times with a machine gun and then still being able to get up from a car crash) and thus would explain how he survives a heart attack. It would kind of make Liquid scarier since this bastard can recover from almost anything. Hell, they could probably keep his accelerated aging in check too, so when Solid get old, Liquid is still as fit as a fiddle....so yeah, Vamp should have turned out to be Liquid in a disguise (he has history of doing that). The only reason it wasnt obvious in MGS 1 because maybe they were prototypes or maybe weaker and Liquid had to get stronger ones to keep himself going, giving him a more sick look the longer he abuses his body and the nanomachines.

The problem with a Liquid centered game is that MGS 5 has shown that Liquid was a prick since childhood, so we shouldnt expect him to be sympathetic like Solid and Early Big Boss, tho to be honest I kind of prefered if he was evil because Im tired of everytime we follow a villain that suddenly he wasnt so bad after all? It would feel unique to play as an outright villain, or at least lesser villain given Liquid's foe might be the bigger threat but the story does make it clear that Liquid isnt that better. Hell, we could get the scene of Liquid trying to locate Big Boss but finding out...he is dead, he had been killed by Solid Snake...his "brother"....thus begins his deep hatred for him and setting up the Shadow Moses incident.

But im obviously day dreaming at this point.
 
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Duncan Hills Coffee

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The problem with a Liquid centered game is that MGS 5 has shown that Liquid was a prick since childhood, so we shouldnt expect him to be sympathetic like Solid and Early Big Boss, tho to be honest I kind of prefered if he was evil because Im tired of everytime we follow a villain that suddenly he wasnt so bad after all? It would feel unique to play as an outright villain, or at least lesser villain given Liquid's foe might be the bigger threat but the story does make it clear that Liquid isnt that better. Hell, we could get the scene of Liquid trying to locate Big Boss but finding out...he is dead, he had been killed by Solid Snake...his "brother"....thus begins his deep hatred for him and setting up the Shadow Moses incident.
Well to be honest I had the idea floating in my head well before MGSV was released. I never did get to him though because I got stuck at the mission where you had to Fulton those trucks but my R&D level was too low to make the balloons, and I really didn't feel like grinding for it so I can't really say how Liquid was treated in V.
 
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Burned Man

Trans-Legion burnedgender Mormankin
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Well to be honest I had the idea floating in my head well before MGSV was released. I never did get to him though because I got stuck at the mission where you had to Fulton those trucks but my R&D level was too low to make the balloons, and I really didn't feel like grinding for it so I can't really say how Liquid was treated in V.
He was a shit kid that had an inferiority complex like MGS 1 and was pissed off at Snake for beating him and bruising his pride. Multiple times you see Snake try and connect with the kid and teach him as Liquid rejects him. He keeps starting shit and gets his ass kicked by Snake and Ocelot. The game plays with your expectations and has a "you are not the father moment" at one point. Its also still strange to be that Eli's hatred is so great that it that eclipses both the man on fire's and Skull Face's. The man on fire let's his grudge die and moves on so much easier then this kid you just met. The cut epilogue stuff helps explain whey Liquid hates Big Boss so much but everything leading up it is a little lacking.

One thing that I always found distracting was the possession scenes in MGS 2 where Ocelot would rip his sleeve off and Liquids's arm would be massive like it came from an 7 foot tall superman.

A Liquid game would have to ditch the none lethals and remove the penalties for killing. You'd have a moment where someone on his side would just look at him and go "You enjoy all the killing don't you?" and he just smiles and goes of course I do.
 

Smaug's Smokey Hole

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I think when Kojima wrote MGS1 he did not necessarily write it with any sequels in mind, Metal Gear was a cult classic at best and Metal Gear 2 never even got a US release at all, so there was no indication he would ever be able to make another entry in the series, so he figured why not send Snake off with a grand finale?

But then the game was such a smash hit and that of course created problem when he was tasked with making a sequel.
That sounds very plausible. MGS is a huge thing now but I remember back when MGS1 was first announced/revealed people saw it in a different way. "Hey, they're making a new Blaster Master, Castlevania and a Contra for the PSX! And Metal Gear!"
It was lumped in with the revival of NES franchises and the games mentioned above were way more recognizable names than Metal Gear. I don't think it even had any kind of trailer like MGS games became famous for, later on there was a couple of stamp sized 20 second gameplay clips without VA/cutscenes and it was a pain in the ass to watch videos online in ~97. They showed a bit of the Grey Fox fight in the office where paper was flying everywhere, that built some hype among those who would seek out and download the clips that could only be played in Quicktime I think.

That's how I remember it and MGS1 surprised a lot of people when it came out, it had a massive impact, unlike PSX Blaster Master and Contra. As great as it was Symphony of the Night didn't sell much.
 

ProblematicUser420

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MGS1s reveal trailer was CGI cutscenes and just gameplay of Snake fucking around.

Actually MGS trailers were more gameplay up until MGS4 came out I think.
 

Billy_Sama

♂Love and Muscle in Heaven♂
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I personally like to just pretend the series ended with Snake Eater to be honest, it's just simpler and easier that way.

Starting with 4 the story becomes just such a convoluted mess, too many things pulled out of Kojima's ass, that I just have a hard time accepting it all even though I wish I could, but now I see the wisdom in Kojima originally wanting to leave things mysterious and up to your imagination instead of, ya know, a convoluted mess.

I can see the potential in The Phantom Pain, I love the gameplay but the story in that is almost hilariously messy, it's really too bad because it had the potential to be the Symphony of the Night for Metal Gear, breathing new life into a well worn Konami franchise by turning what was once linear into something open ended, but it just didn't pull it off and ultimately proved how badly the series needed to be retired.

I can at best consider the post Snake Eater games a sort of "what if" soft canon, but for me the "hard canon" ends with Snake Eater.
I like to think Kojima is the Steven King of video games and he consumes more coke on each game he makes.
 
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The handsome tard

Currently targeting Bill Gates, you are welcome!
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You know, what do people really think of the whole "MGS 2 vs MGS 3" debate nowadays?

On the earlier days, most people usually favored 3 but it seems more and more people are starting to appreciate 2 better while pointing out the flaws with 3. One of the flaws was the start of the "humanization" of big boss when this would kind of spiral out of control with most of the series almost prefering to focus on him. The other flaw was that 3 felt almost reactionary to the negative feedback from 2 over Raiden, to this day MGS 3 is full of stabs at Raiden when I honestly think the Raiden hate didnt age well and MGS 3 made it very clear that you will be controlling Snake (tho even that was technically a lie given its Big Boss and not Solid). Another significant flaw is that people feel MGS 3 played far too safe and tried giving explanations to stuff Kojima originally never meant to having, even before MGS 4, like the Patriots' origin and Liquid returning (both of which kept getting retconned to hell and back in MGS 4,PW and 5).

Nowadays people seem to recognize 2's proper use of post modernism to create a surreal and yet thought provoking experience with implications that seem to be getting more relevant the older it becomes (some people even calling it gaming's equivalent of "1984"). Also saying that MGS2 is one of the few good examples of subversion actually done right (and not in an insulting TLJ way). Some people say that 2 just had more details and thought put into it, like hidden details you only notice on further playthroughs while 3 usually has a more barebones experience, like there isnt much to learn new in further playthroughs.

But either way, what people think of this whole debate over which is better and why?
 

Duncan Hills Coffee

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You know, what do people really think of the whole "MGS 2 vs MGS 3" debate nowadays?

On the earlier days, most people usually favored 3 but it seems more and more people are starting to appreciate 2 better while pointing out the flaws with 3. One of the flaws was the start of the "humanization" of big boss when this would kind of spiral out of control with most of the series almost prefering to focus on him. The other flaw was that 3 felt almost reactionary to the negative feedback from 2 over Raiden, to this day MGS 3 is full of stabs at Raiden when I honestly think the Raiden hate didnt age well and MGS 3 made it very clear that you will be controlling Snake (tho even that was technically a lie given its Big Boss and not Solid). Another significant flaw is that people feel MGS 3 played far too safe and tried giving explanations to stuff Kojima originally never meant to having, even before MGS 4, like the Patriots' origin and Liquid returning (both of which kept getting retconned to hell and back in MGS 4,PW and 5).

Nowadays people seem to recognize 2's proper use of post modernism to create a surreal and yet thought provoking experience with implications that seem to be getting more relevant the older it becomes (some people even calling it gaming's equivalent of "1984"). Also saying that MGS2 is one of the few good examples of subversion actually done right (and not in an insulting TLJ way). Some people say that 2 just had more details and thought put into it, like hidden details you only notice on further playthroughs while 3 usually has a more barebones experience, like there isnt much to learn new in further playthroughs.

But either way, what people think of this whole debate over which is better and why?
I always thought 2 was better because it directly iterated on 1's mechanics to create a much more rich and dynamic stealth game. The AI was smarter and more reactionary; they noticed things outside their peripheral vision and if they caught you they would hunt you down more viciously than they would in the sequels (there's that twinge of panic when a squad moves into a room you're hiding in and they start searching through everything). Not to mention, 2 is the only game in the series that somewhat discouraged just tranquilizing everything; if you did that, the commander would ask why the soldier's status report was late and would send a squad to check up on them (you could dodge this by immediately leaving and re-entering, but that's assuming you're close to a door). Out of all the games, I felt the least safe in 2. I'm always on my toes even after beating the game a dozen times.

3's an odd one for me because it's got a lot of good ideas and mechanics but the game's pace is unbearably slow. It's an unholy combination of needing to pause every 15 feet to switch out camouflage and the fact that you basically need to crawl if you don't want anyone to see you. It just gets to me after a while, and it's probably why out of all the Solid games, I've beaten 3 the least amount of times. Granted, the second half of the game is excellent and it is a worthy payoff after the first half that quite frankly drags on and on, but most of the time I just don't feel motivated to get there. I can finish MGS1 and 2 in less than three days, but 3 takes me about a week or two because the glacial pace keeps putting me off.

When it comes to story, I still think 2 is on top because I find that it's far easier to get invested in the story and characters. I always liked how it replicates the events of the first game and then calls attention to it to serve its larger themes of societal control. 2's story is so much fun to dissect and analyze, and it's something 3 lacks. 3 has better character arcs, especially with Snake and Ocelot, but I never found it as interesting as 1 or 2. 3 gets some credit for having the most tragic ending in the series and it's probably one of the only prequels that doesn't feel unnecessary (not just Metal Gear but in general). I just can't really get into it.

I am heavily biased against 3 though because I played 4 before that one, which I believe had improved on 3's core mechanics (the Octocamo is a godsend) to the point where returning to 3 feels tedious.
 
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