Morality of Piracy - Yet another quality FuckedUp thread

heyitsmike

The beatings will continue until morale improves.
kiwifarms.net
with a consequentialist view though i think that piracy is a force for good in the world because it forces creators to work harder to gain the moral support of their audience.
Doesn't the fact that you consume their work mean they have? If you didn't indeed value their work, why would you ever pirate it?

Since you obviously do value it, they have gained the moral support of their audience. So don't you now have an obligation to give them their financial support?
 

AnnLurker

kiwifarms.net
idk what socialism has to do with it. i'm not talking about "moral support"; i'm talking about indirect, widespread, public financial support. people make this calculation all the time. "i like this brand so i'll spend my money on them." "chick fil a is run by bigots so i wont support them." "tlou2 is a sjw nightmare so i'm gonna pirate the shit out of it." "yandaredev is the coolest dude ever i'm gonna support him on patreon." people do this all the time.
So lets go through this one by one

"i like this brand so i'll spend my money on them.": Fine. But if it's "I like this brand but can't afford it" that doesn't mean you can take it.

"chick fil a is run by bigots so i wont support them.": As long as they don't steal the food or trash/burn it down then that is their right and good on them.

"tlou2 is a sjw nightmare so i'm gonna pirate the shit out of it.": Why anyone would pirate something they hate to own? Also just cause it's your ideological foes doesn't mean you should steal from them and frankly why would you want their trash anyway?

"yandaredev is the coolest dude ever i'm gonna support him on patreon.": Sure and this is also perfectly fine. If someone stole from this stupid fuck that still wouldn't make it moral and it wouldn't make fagdev any money either.

Where does piracy fit in here that it would gain any of these people to be stolen from?
Personally I don't care about piracy and if people steal I can't and won't stop them but stop trying to hide it as a moral thing to do so. Theft is theft.
Either you care about it or you don't but stop lying to yourself.
 

LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV]

I try so hard and got so far
kiwifarms.net
as in somehow subtracting money from a product will make it better.
the list of most pirated media usually overlaps with the list of most profitable media, if that argument of substracting money were true, in the case all those heavily pirated franchises would mean they are hemorrhaging money and yet profit margin record keep being broken yearly in the entertainment industry, the games keep getting pirated and yet they still profit so much that they can put out 20 more shitty sequels like with Assasins Creed.
Companies have been making the argument that piracy subtracts money but after decades already of online piracy theres yet to be definite proof that piracy considerably affect profit margins. Its not so much as the industry suffering from piracy but shareholders thinking (erroneously) that they'll squeeze a few extra bucks if piracy would just go away.

Many artists have put it to the test already, like when trent reznor and Louie CK delivered content on a "pay what you will" model, lots of people got it for free and yet their profit margins were not affected, in fact those particular products sold more than usual even when people had the ability to just not pay. Many artists create online content that is delivered for free and people still support their patreons, kickstarters, gofundme, etc and make it worth their time, something that was extremely rare before the internet. Those who are able and willing to pay will do so whether pirating exist or not, those who pirate usually are the same that would not be able or willing to pay anyways, everyone's wallet stays the same regardless.

Piracy did lead to innovation, it led to changing of models in how content is sold online and now there are services like Spotify, Crunchyroll and Netflix that appeared in response to napster and pirate streaming sites. Those reduced the appeal for piracy for a lot of people and all the companies had to do was follow the trends and appeal to the consumer habits rather than guilt trip people while refusing to adapt to demands. I haven't downloaded a single pirate song in years because i know spotify exists, with the exception of tool before they finally decided to join the platform so now i can listen tool on spotify.

Its also kind of a fallacy that more money=better product just look at Disney Star wars or basically the entire hollywood output last few years.

People who pirate some shit online are not revolutionaries hurting da system or killing capitalism, people who take that stance are as dumb as corporations using piracy as a scapegoat or a cartoon villain for when they want to justify their fuck ups or pull some shitty scheme like microtransactions for extra dough without offering extra quality.
 

Deadpool

Possibly a reptilian.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
the list of most pirated media usually overlaps with the list of most profitable media, if that argument of substracting money were true, in the case all those heavily pirated franchises would mean they are hemorrhaging money and yet profit margin record keep being broken yearly in the entertainment industry, the games keep getting pirated and yet they still profit so much that they can put out 20 more shitty sequels like with Assasins Creed.
Companies have been making the argument that piracy subtracts money but after decades already of online piracy theres yet to be definite proof that piracy considerably affect profit margins. Its not so much as the industry suffering from piracy but shareholders thinking (erroneously) that they'll squeeze a few extra bucks if piracy would just go away.

Many artists have put it to the test already, like when trent reznor and Louie CK delivered content on a "pay what you will" model, lots of people got it for free and yet their profit margins were not affected, in fact those particular products sold more than usual even when people had the ability to just not pay. Many artists create online content that is delivered for free and people still support their patreons, kickstarters, gofundme, etc and make it worth their time, something that was extremely rare before the internet. Those who are able and willing to pay will do so whether pirating exist or not, those who pirate usually are the same that would not be able or willing to pay anyways, everyone's wallet stays the same regardless.

Piracy did lead to innovation, it led to changing of models in how content is sold online and now there are services like Spotify, Crunchyroll and Netflix that appeared in response to napster and pirate streaming sites. Those reduced the appeal for piracy for a lot of people and all the companies had to do was follow the trends and appeal to the consumer habits rather than guilt trip people while refusing to adapt to demands. I haven't downloaded a single pirate song in years because i know spotify exists, with the exception of tool before they finally decided to join the platform so now i can listen tool on spotify.

Its also kind of a fallacy that more money=better product just look at Disney Star wars or basically the entire hollywood output last few years.

People who pirate some shit online are not revolutionaries hurting da system or killing capitalism, people who take that stance are as dumb as corporations using piracy as a scapegoat or a cartoon villain for when they want to justify their fuck ups or pull some shitty scheme like microtransactions for extra dough without offering extra quality.
Dude just say you like to get shit without paying for it. It's not that big of a deal.
 

William Tell Underpass

#ApplesForHobos
kiwifarms.net
I can safely say that if I could not get any media for the exact cost of my internet bill I would not consume the media and will happily make my way through the gutenberg peoject and abandonware for the rest of my life if I lose the ability to consume other media for free.
 

BoingBoingBoi

bad weird
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Where does piracy fit in here that it would gain any of these people to be stolen from?
you said that moral support doesn't lead to financial support, so i gave counter-examples to show that it's totally normal to make morally informed decisions as consumers. the point is tangential to piracy.

Personally I don't care about piracy and if people steal I can't and won't stop them but stop trying to hide it as a moral thing to do so. Theft is theft.
Either you care about it or you don't but stop lying to yourself.
so you're a deontologist. that's fine. i probably am too, intuitively anyway (e.g. "don't steal" critiques of piracy). piracy sure feels like stealing and usually that's what stops me from doing it.

my only other claim is that piracy can promote innovation by calling the standard transaction of "finished product for currency" into question, and thereby demanding more from creators either in terms of making a product that people would be less willing to pirate or finding creative ways to gain financial support from people.

does this make piracy okay? maybe if you're a consequentialist. does it ever factor into whether or not i personally pirate something? nah. does it mean piracy should be promoted? again, maybe. i'm more just claiming that piracy is basically a market force at this point and industries and creators are adapting to it and sometimes in ways that everyone benefits from.
 

So-and-so

kiwifarms.net
I pirate media, software and books because I am an act utilitarian that denies the value of virtue ethics. By pirating materials, I literally create more enjoyment and happiness for myself than the original creators have lost by not being paid, thus creating a net positive of utility each and every time.

Also, I like free shit, and literally no one can stop me.
 

Moguro Fukuzou

Customer Satisfaction 100% Guaranteed
kiwifarms.net
I'm only speaking for myself here, but while I do pirate I like to follow some guidelines around it that works well with my desires as a physical media collector. I really dislike the idea of blind buying due to how expensive things can get, especially when you're keeping up with the various boutique movie labels and the quality of the movies they release isn't the most stable. When a title looks interesting to me, I'll torrent it to watch and then delete it once I finish. If I ended up really liking the film or felt I'd like to rewatch it in the future, it gets put on a buy list to pick it up whenever there's a sale. I've found that since starting to do this I've ended up buying a lot more since I can buy with the confidence I actually liked the movie, if I'm buying a used copy I'm more willing to blind buy however. For example, a single Criterion movie release is $44 without a sale and $34 on sale (cheaper in the states where you can actually get 50% sales). At that price point I don't want to waste my money by picking up a movie I end up not liking and that $30-$40 price tag is pretty common for other boutique labels when not on sale.

Anime is a little more tricky since I find the prices to be rather high for what you get, usually I'll wait for complete collections, sales, or the second hand market to pick up titles. For shows I like that aren't released in english or have inferior releases I typically keep an archived version of a fansub release on an external drive.

I don't really see much wrong with what I do, see it similar to checking out a movie from the library (something I did quite frequently before corona) just for titles I wouldn't find available in their system which is the case for most boutique label releases that aren't Criterion. I mentioned buying second hand, but I'm wondering what people think of that since you're not giving the studio or creator any money past the first person that originally purchased it. Disney films I refuse to pick up unless I find them second hand because I don't want to give them any money and I feel no guilt for doing so.
 

soft breathing

god has left the building a long time ago.
kiwifarms.net
My stance on the whole thing:

If a game isn't worth my money for whatever reason, it's not worth my time.

If I don't want to support a company for whatever reason, I usually also simply refuse to buy/play their game and don't pirate it, no matter how good the game may be.

Piracy is only okay if you really cannot afford games for whatever reason (those people aren't gonna save up and buy the game anyways) or if it's censored/blocked/simply not available in your country and you have no other way of (legally) obtaining it. Same goes for extremely old games that aren't just in stores anymore for me.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

kiwifarms.net
I'm pretty much in the camp that you shouldn't pirate unless you can't afford it or can't find it anywhere.
Yeah in case of corporations they have no shortage of money, but the individuals working on it are dependent on its sales to not be yeeted and replaced by "shitty 3rd person rpg 3000". Not to mention that there is no shortage of old games that deserve time and money more than 99% of modern games. And in general game prices tend to drop pretty wildly after a few months.

Also if you do pirate at least don't try to portray it as "fighting the system", it's just autistic.
 

Deadpool

Possibly a reptilian.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Honestly the only thing I pirate is comics. I don't mind waiting for movies to become available on streaming services to watch them. I like to support my favorite band so I actually buy physical CD's, and I'm a console gamer so pirating isn't even an option.

That said I'll continue pirating comics because the amount of them I go through would bankrupt small countries. I don't give a fuck if I'm "entitled" to them or not. I want to read them and I'm smart enough to find them for free so I do it.
 

Tour of Italy

New York spaghetti, never forghetti
kiwifarms.net
By paying for media, you’re subsidizing that media for basically everywhere outside of the first world. Some kid in Guatemala is watching the newest movie on a burned DVD he got from a dude on el bus because the studio that releases it knows it’ll make most of its profits from the deep pockets of the americanos.

That’s another way to look at it.
 

TurdFondler

kiwifarms.net
If piracy weren't easier than the alternative I'd spend money. I pay for Spotify because it's easy.

I try to watch a movie or series and it's fucking DRM or region locked or some provider has it. I'm not setting up a VPN and getting a US credit card to watch something.

The corporations could provide everything without these hassles for reasonable prices and still make out like bandits. Look at what happened to streaming, everything splintered into individual services now. I'll be fucked if I'm paying for all of them.
 

Qajinima022

Sweets Lover
kiwifarms.net
Most of the things I pirate are old handheld video games, and using streaming services with an app and on the internet. That's it when it comes to pirating, and I'll mostly do it quietly anyways.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
I don't really give a fuck. If I like a piece of media enough I usually buy it to show the symbolism of it. If it has to be a reproduction cartridge of a video game, it's not my fault Earthbound is like $500. I like collecting vinyl and Laserdiscs too, so it's more of a symbolic thing more than anything. I do love me a nice, well-illustrated book on nice paper though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deadpool
Tags
None