UN Navy Secretary Richard Spencer fired over handling of Eddie Gallagher's SEAL trident -

mindlessobserver

kiwifarms.net
The US military does a terrible job of following those rules. It understands the concepts of counterinsurgency at a high level, but it really isn't geared towards fighting unconventional opponents. Countering a foreign insurgency with conventional forces is fucking hard, and I don't think we've really pulled it of since the Philippines (and I don't know much about that). Democratic nations would do well to steer clear of insurgencies in general.
The phillipines insurgency was a shit show and the only success America had with it was in pretending it never happened and killing enough Flips for them to know it happened but not all the details.

Suffice to say it was what would happen if the Mongols thought they had a higher purpose then looting and stealing combined with every war South Africa fought ever prior to Mandela. You got child soldier hopped up on cocaine rushing US machine guns, the odd village massacred in retaliation, entire Army Units going full Apocalypse Now and at the end everyone agreed this whole thing isnt working out so we need to get going now.

And yet somehow after all of that we were still better then the Japs. Really makes you think.
 

Uranus Pink

kiwifarms.net
No nation came out of World War II clean, to be honest. Even outside of Dresden, the firebombing of Tokyo was even worse. You did what you had to do to win. The US should have done a better job at keeping commie shit out of West Germany, though.
The FDR and Truman Administrations were commie all but in name. If the U.S. Military really did honored their oath to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic they would have purged every marxist in the U.S. including FDR and Truman.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Yeah...now this is not true at all. Even with two extra years of war for the British, American casualties still exceeded those sustained by the UK. In shear number of troops put into combat situations by the Allies, the USA was third after Russia and China, but it's a tad unfair to compare with those two as the vast majority of the war was fought in Russia and China and by necessity the civilian populations were mobilized as meat shields.

I also maintain the Soviets massive combat casualties are not a point in their favor but rather were indicative of how incompetent their leadership was, how ineffectual their strategy was, and how absolutely horrible their army was at fighting a campaign. Quantity has it's own quality for sure, but in the Battle of Berlin to German Boy Scouts killed more Russians then the Russians killed them...so...
No need to fight about this at all. EVERY country that fought the Axis contributed, sacrificed and suffered. EVERY country that fought the Axis gave their best effort and deserves respect for that. It took ALL of us to defeat the Axis. Millions of men, women, and children we will never meet gave up all their tomorrows so we could have our todays.
 

mindlessobserver

kiwifarms.net
The FDR and Truman Administrations were commie all but in name. If the U.S. Military really did honored their oath to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic they would have purged every marxist in the U.S. including FDR and Truman.
FDR pretty much saved the country from communism. He understood something the merchant class that had taken over the traditional nobility class had never bothered to learn when they seized the levers of power during the enlightenment. Power comes with a responsibility to insure society functions, and sometimes you need to sacrifice profit to make that happen.

Without the New Deal it's not outside the realm of possibility that faith in the national institutions would have broken down entirely and something far worse then a centralized federal government would have replaced them.
 

L50LasPak

Locked and loaded
kiwifarms.net
We've already fucked up the local population enough to make them despise us with our poor marksmanship when it comes to cluster bombings and drone strikes. This will piss off the raghead haters, but the last thing we need is some dude plugging random civillians.

The terrorist organizations we are fighting in this conflict are not only aware of this, they are counting on it. Every dead civillian means one or more potential recruits from amongst their family members. If this gets out of hand and the entire population turns against us, the only option is basically total and deliberate annhilation of every single inhabited location on the map, much like the brutal WW2-style bombing tactics we saw during the Korean War. A country completely reduced to smashed rubble and charples would at that point be incapable of providing much resistance, but it really does not look good on the international scale since it really stands on the thin line between total war and genocide.

Besides, a vicious campaign of destruction like that would probably turn a lot of small allies we have in the region against us; organizations that have been vital to our operations since the beginning and have filled in much-needed manpower gaps. Not to mention it will increase paranoia in other countries that so far, while hostile to our interests, have generally remained passive in these conflicts. The strength of our arms is such that we can annhilate any particularly Middle Eastern and/or Central Asian country if we so desire, but I'm not certain we can manage a conflict where we face a large alliance of such nations.

Its not like they'd be putting boots on our soil by the end of it; they lack the technology and logistics to manage it, but we could see high casualties, a weakened US military apparatus, possible civil unrest domestically, a tighter and tigher grip by PMCs, decades of slow-burning intermittent warfare and of course as we annhilate more countries, more would turn against us and so on. One possible theory is that the whole thing could escalate to nuclear war. Which not coincidentally was the plot of both The Day After and Threads.

I'm as interested in dealing with terrorists as anyone else and understand the ambiguity between plain-clothes jihadis and regular civilians, but if we want to get the hell out of this mess scorched earth is not the way to go.
 

Übertroon

Gotta go fast
kiwifarms.net
FDR pretty much saved the country from communism. He understood something the merchant class that had taken over the traditional nobility class had never bothered to learn when they seized the levers of power during the enlightenment. Power comes with a responsibility to insure society functions, and sometimes you need to sacrifice profit to make that happen.

Without the New Deal it's not outside the realm of possibility that faith in the national institutions would have broken down entirely and something far worse then a centralized federal government would have replaced them.
Except the New Deal fucked up the economy to a degree it wouldn't recover from until the war made US trade essential.
Almost every nation recovered from the 1929 market crash faster than the US

As for the topic at hand, it's hilarious to see internet leftists defending a political Trump appointee just because he got fired by Trump
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RodgerDodger

Trig.Point

I wouldn't start from here.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Man, you're picking a fight with the other Muslim that hangs around here. Saudi Arabia's playing nice with tons of countries, currently, but I really doubt they'd accept being ruled by Turkey. The United Arab Republic is a distant dream at this point.
The Turks don't consider themselves Arab, if anything crazy as it sounds they consider themselves European.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JosephStalin

not william stenchever

<lie> I am not interested in giant balls of twine
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Clearly something must be done to reign in elite units from acting as if they are above and beyond the UCMJ, but I'd say that the trial completely failed in that regard due to the prosecution's incompetence. Trying to do an end run to take the guy's trident after he was exonerated fails to advance that goal either, in my opinion.

I'm surprised we didn't hear more about the two SEALs who murdered a Green Beret that found out they were pocketing the bribe money meant for local warlords.
 

TowinKarz

Is it Morning Yet?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Clearly something must be done to reign in elite units from acting as if they are above and beyond the UCMJ, but I'd say that the trial completely failed in that regard due to the prosecution's incompetence. Trying to do an end run to take the guy's trident after he was exonerated fails to advance that goal either, in my opinion.
This is the same thing as turning around and suing OJ into the ground after his acquittal, which led directly to him having financial problems to the point he robbed a merchandise dealer to get back "his" stuff, and they charged him not just with armed robbery, but kidnapping, to ensure the maximum possible sentence. I wonder if they're trying to poke and prod him into another lashout they can prosecute since they bungled the first one. Or, opt to pull apart his life until they find something they can apply disproportionate penalty on to finally get the "Right" verdict. I've never been a fan of the fact that double jeopardy doesn't cover both criminal and civil courts, and those criminal charged can be civilly charged with the same crime. Either make it about money, or make it about the crime, you need to pick the one you feel is most important and that's it. IMHO, one shouldn't be a fallback position if the other one fails do deliver what you wanted. But I digress....

That may fit the letter of the law, but it's scummy and cannot be tolerated as it runs counter to the spirit of the law: Each case is it's own animal, and the outcome does not justify more prosecution, criminal or civil, than was already planned at the outset against the original and only the original defendant as it pertains to the original charge.
 
Last edited:

TerminalTryHard

kiwifarms.net
Clearly something must be done to reign in elite units from acting as if they are above and beyond the UCMJ, but I'd say that the trial completely failed in that regard due to the prosecution's incompetence. Trying to do an end run to take the guy's trident after he was exonerated fails to advance that goal either, in my opinion.

I'm surprised we didn't hear more about the two SEALs who murdered a Green Beret that found out they were pocketing the bribe money meant for local warlords.
Because that was an open and closed case.
They got caught stealing money, tried to bribe the guy and when that didn't work killed him.

This was two Navy prosecutors trying to build their career by making an example out of Gallagher, and reigning in those spec ops cowboys.
 
The first a straw man, and the second is not a good argument for like behavior.

If an individual wants a necklace of ears then they should go be a freelancer. If they're serving in the US military, then their actions must support the greater mission to the extent possible. Allowing our enemies to say "look what the Americans do" to boost recruiting or harden resistance does more harm to our efforts than being selective, restrained, and possibly allowing combatants to escape a fight. Stacking bodies is not the way to win most insurgencies. And shit like this can echo for years.

From FM 3-24 (Counterinsurgency):
I've wondered before if a lot of modern PTSD isn't worsened by how pussified Western warfare is now. If you raise a young man to believe in the humanity of all people, and to think from their perspective and grieve for them and all that shit, and you make a big deal out of collateral and treating them with respect on the battlefield, what's that going to do to them when they're in combat? You raise them like a pacifist and then expect them to be a killer.

We need to bring back scalping.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Because that was an open and closed case.
They got caught stealing money, tried to bribe the guy and when that didn't work killed him.

This was two Navy prosecutors trying to build their career by making an example out of Gallagher, and reigning in those spec ops cowboys.
If the SEALs needed to be "reined in", then why wasn't their admiral in charge and his unit commanders staying on top of the situation from day one? Leadership means monitoring not just the overall situation, but also paying attention to after-action reports, getting with commanders, and showing up at detachments, participating in training, sitting in on pre-mission briefings. Leadership also means that all subordinates, starting with the direct reports and cascading down through the organization at all levels, know what you expect from them and what they can expect from you. Did this myself when I got new troops in.

When you pay attention on what's going on, after having clearly broadcast your expectations, and if need be, making an example or two, you are much less likely to have the problems the SEALs are dealing with presently. One man shouldn't be the scapegoat for piss-poor leadership. Piss-poor leadership enabled these problems to happen. Takes good leadership to fix the problems, but they can be fixed - just takes some actual effort. Not rocket science. Good leadership doesn't cost - it pays. And if the present admiral in charge of the SEALS has been around for a while, time to get someone new.
 

Scooter Braun

#TaylorsGoingToJail
kiwifarms.net
I've wondered before if a lot of modern PTSD isn't worsened by how pussified Western warfare is now. If you raise a young man to believe in the humanity of all people, and to think from their perspective and grieve for them and all that shit, and you make a big deal out of collateral and treating them with respect on the battlefield, what's that going to do to them when they're in combat? You raise them like a pacifist and then expect them to be a killer.

We need to bring back scalping.
It's not difficult to convince Johnny from Ohio to gun someone down when he's getting shot at and he's unlikely to feel much remorse over it.

Johnny might feel bad if he shoots first, but that's Achmed's fault for being on the battlefield.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I've wondered before if a lot of modern PTSD isn't worsened by how pussified Western warfare is now. If you raise a young man to believe in the humanity of all people, and to think from their perspective and grieve for them and all that shit, and you make a big deal out of collateral and treating them with respect on the battlefield, what's that going to do to them when they're in combat? You raise them like a pacifist and then expect them to be a killer.

We need to bring back scalping.
No, PTSD has been around as long as "modern" warfare, just called different names. Keep in mind that in the USA, up until about 1941, had no large standing army. Troops came from civilian society, where dealing with combat on an industrial scale was the furthest thing from their minds. Not all of these troops reacted to the stress of combat well. Many soldiers suffered what was called "shell shock" in WWI, then "battle fatigue" in WWII. Don't know what it was called in Korea or Vietnam, but battles in these wars weren't like in the two World Wars. Suggest part of the problem in Iraq/Afghanistan, like in Vietnam, is there being no fixed front line and no way to tell who's on your side and who is an enemy. Been a lot of attacks on US troops by supposed "allied" Iraq/Afghan troops. Go outside the wire, and anything can explode. Going to keep tension ratcheted up pretty high. May not take much to induce PTSD in that case.

Believe the rules of engagement need to be looked at, and latitude allowed. You cannot successfully fight a war with a lawyer looking over your shoulder at everything you do.
 

Jet Fuel Johnny

Full Metal Sperg
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Believe the rules of engagement need to be looked at, and latitude allowed. You cannot successfully fight a war with a lawyer looking over your shoulder at everything you do.
Get rid of the fucking cameras and the embedded reporters.

Putting a reporter in every fucking unit and allowing them the run of the base was the dumbest fucking idea ever.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Get rid of the fucking cameras and the embedded reporters.

Putting a reporter in every fucking unit and allowing them the run of the base was the dumbest fucking idea ever.
Can you imagine if we'd had this sort of stuff during WWII? Mind you, we had plenty of war correspondents out there, but they didn't have a hard-on for the US and the US military, Some of the best writing I have ever read was by Ernie Pyle. Today, simply too many with either an ax to grind or dreams of stardom at the military's expense.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: TowinKarz

Jet Fuel Johnny

Full Metal Sperg
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Can you imagine if we'd had this sort of stuff during WWII? Mind you, we had plenty of war correspondents out there, but they didn't have a hard-on for the US and the US military, Some of the best writing I have ever read was by Ernie Pyle. Today, simply too many with either an ax to grind or dreams of stardom at the military's expense.
The press drools over war crimes and being the savior of humanity to expose the next Gook Torch 2: Mudder Boogaloo.

Hell, they tried REPEATEDLY to falsify war crimes during the WoT. From altering Apache gunship footage to make it look like one of the killed was a skipping child (It was a dude running for the RPG's) to when they edited the footage of that Marine kicking the mudder in the face so it looked like he was just raising his hand not whipping out a pistol.

The press has been the enemy of the US military since Vietnam.
 
Tags
None

About Us

The Kiwi Farms is about eccentric individuals and communities on the Internet. We call them lolcows because they can be milked for amusement or laughs. Our community is bizarrely diverse and spectators are encouraged to join the discussion.

We do not place intrusive ads, host malware, sell data, or run crypto miners with your browser. If you experience these things, you have a virus. If your malware system says otherwise, it is faulty.

Supporting the Forum

How to Help

The Kiwi Farms is constantly attacked by insane people and very expensive to run. It would not be here without community support.

BTC: 1DgS5RfHw7xA82Yxa5BtgZL65ngwSk6bmm
ETH: 0xc1071c60Ae27C8CC3c834E11289205f8F9C78CA5
BAT: 0xc1071c60Ae27C8CC3c834E11289205f8F9C78CA5
LTC: LSZsFCLUreXAZ9oyc9JRUiRwbhkLCsFi4q
XMR: 438fUMciiahbYemDyww6afT1atgqK3tSTX25SEmYknpmenTR6wvXDMeco1ThX2E8gBQgm9eKd1KAtEQvKzNMFrmjJJpiino