World North Korea Megathread - Dear Leader and his shenanigans

Will our great nation The Democratic People's Republic of Korea succeed?

  • Dear leader will guide us to glory

  • Everyone goes to the labor prisons

  • Trump nukes Kim Jong Un a new anus

  • DPRK starves to death before anything interesting happens


Results are only viewable after voting.

Arse Biscuit

Horrible Bastard
kiwifarms.net
There's nothing inherently wrong or infeasible with appeasement as a foreign policy, so long as you are negotiating with a rational state actor. Hitler was not a rational state actor. These days, pretty much everyone, even Iran and North Korea are rational state actors once the nuclear factor enters the equation. When their very existence is at stake, there's a tremendous amount of incentive to approach diplomacy from the perspective of a rational state actor.
At no point is Kim Jon Un a rational state actor.

And I am wracking my brain trying to think of the last time appeasement had a good ending. I'm as far back as Ethelred the Unready, and it didn't work for him, either.
 

TowinKarz

Thoroughly Unimpressed
kiwifarms.net
Hitler didn't have nukes in a world where enough people have them that just letting one fly may start a chain reaction where nobody stops till they're all launched..... don't ignore the reality that this is different than it was 80 years ago.

If you took the wrong approach then, at worst, you'd have to take ten thousand casualties to remove an enemy army from your country.

Screw up now, you take 10 million casualties and may have nothing left.
 

It's HK-47

Meatbag's Bounty of Bodies
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Somehow, "Trump is LITERALLY Neville Chamberlain!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. What was anyone's alternative plan, anyways? Eight more years of ""strategic patience"" (IE: Let the next guy deal with it) so absolutely nothing changes and the problem continues to get steadily worse? Murder him like Ghaddafi and cause a power vacuum? Those plans haven't historically accomplished a whole Hell of a lot, either, unless you're just trying to make the situation worse than it already was.
 

wellthathappened

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
kiwifarms.net
The Norks are not disarming. The nice show can't change that the entire culture hinges on obsolete paranoia. Trump tried, but I don't think this will result in a remarkable change.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Trilby

millais

The Yellow Rose of Victoria, Texas
kiwifarms.net
At no point is Kim Jon Un a rational state actor.

And I am wracking my brain trying to think of the last time appeasement had a good ending. I'm as far back as Ethelred the Unready, and it didn't work for him, either.
One of the greatest successful applications of appeasement occurred in a context not that dissimilar to the Korean situation. Two nuclear powers clashing over an East Asian border: the Yalu River line between Russia and China. In the aftermath of decades of deadly border skirmishes that almost triggered a full scale war on one occasion, China and Russia sat down at the negotiating table. Even though Russia was bargaining from a position of far greater strength, having won most of the earlier border clashes and enjoying far greater military and nuclear superiority over China, Russia voluntarily removed its troops from the disputed border islands and offered to redraw the border in favor of China, handing over land that had been Russian since the days of Catherine the Great. This appeased the Chinese government's revanchist sentiment about territory that had been wrested from the Qing dynasty by Czarist Russia via an unequal treaty and further gave the Chinese peace of mind by reducing an intrusive Russian military presence on the northern Chinese frontier. Since the redrawing of the border, the Chinese have never raised any territorial issues with Russia and in this instance appeasement significantly reduced strategic tensions between the two countries to almost zero.
 

Arse Biscuit

Horrible Bastard
kiwifarms.net
Somehow, "Trump is LITERALLY Neville Chamberlain!" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. What was anyone's alternative plan, anyways? Eight more years of ""strategic patience"" (IE: Let the next guy deal with it) so absolutely nothing changes and the problem continues to get steadily worse? Murder him like Ghaddafi and cause a power vacuum? Those plans haven't historically accomplished a whole Hell of a lot, either, unless you're just trying to make the situation worse than it already was.
So handing Kim the keys to the store is the answer?
 

heathercho

あかんで !
kiwifarms.net
So handing Kim the keys to the store is the answer?
An asian warlord is not the same as a middle eastern warlord. It's also not appeasement - it's more first step in conflict resolution.

Personally, I think trying the asian business tactic first before escalting like a dumbass is a great approach. There's more room to move with the next approach if this fails than there is if you straight up act like a tard and don't back down. Slightly bending the knee doesn't mean you have no plan of action. It also speaks to the asian mindset far better than unremitting hostility.
 

Keystone

kiwifarms.net
First it was, "Omg! Drumpf is going to get in to a nuclear war with NK! What is he doing?! We need to seek peace!"

Then it was, "The Cheeto is seriously meeting with KJU? He's a fucking dictator. He needs to be mean and show him what's what!"

They really will bitch and moan no matter what. Even Shapiro is having a bitch fit on his Twatter about it.
Remember how the same people saying those lines are the same people who slobbered all over Obama when he visited Raul Castro? How they actively ignored and defended Obama for visiting a dictator?


Shit like this is why Donald won.

These reporters are such fucking hypocrites, and they still wonder why their credibility is mocked as much as it is these days.
 

AnOminous

do you see what happens
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
I’d be okay with removing our troops from the 38th Parallel.

AFTER the nukes are gone and AFTER they’ve been gone a while with no attempt to start it back up again.

The Kims have agreed to stop pulling this shit repeatedly in the past only to renege on it the moment the pressure was off.
 

Jigglyjogglers

The Doctor Bashir guy
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
The Kims have agreed to stop pulling this shit repeatedly in the past only to renege on it the moment the pressure was off.
Yeah, and the troops can always be put back and the sanctions enforced again.

Admittedly it's a bit of a cycle, but the fact that it's happened like this before in the past is not a good reason to stop trying.

Mostly the problem is that in the past, once things have been backed off from the bad part of the cycle, no one really does anything. They just sort of take their asspats for having negotiated something and then fart around doing nothing while the situation backslides.

Now this time Trump's brought things a little further up than they've been before. The major question is whether or not he'll continue to keep pressure on by doing near-constant verification of disarmament and, hopefully, continuing to interact with Kim to keep him coming back again and again to the bargaining table not to hold things in stasis but to move things forward. With him it's something of a crap shoot but he's dedicated a lot of time to this already so it's not inconceivable he'll continue to dedicate time to it. "Peace in Korea" doesn't sound quite as impressive as "Peace in the Middle East", but it's more achievable and thus smarter for him to set his sights on attempting to leave it as his legacy rather than the constant fucking about in the -stans that previous presidents have done.
 

Jewelsmakerguy

(Cheesy 80s music intensifies)
kiwifarms.net
Yeah, and the troops can always be put back and the sanctions enforced again.

Admittedly it's a bit of a cycle, but the fact that it's happened like this before in the past is not a good reason to stop trying.

Mostly the problem is that in the past, once things have been backed off from the bad part of the cycle, no one really does anything. They just sort of take their asspats for having negotiated something and then fart around doing nothing while the situation backslides.

Now this time Trump's brought things a little further up than they've been before. The major question is whether or not he'll continue to keep pressure on by doing near-constant verification of disarmament and, hopefully, continuing to interact with Kim to keep him coming back again and again to the bargaining table not to hold things in stasis but to move things forward. With him it's something of a crap shoot but he's dedicated a lot of time to this already so it's not inconceivable he'll continue to dedicate time to it. "Peace in Korea" doesn't sound quite as impressive as "Peace in the Middle East", but it's more achievable and thus smarter for him to set his sights on attempting to leave it as his legacy rather than the constant fucking about in the -stans that previous presidents have done.
And more so considering how long the Korea situation has lasted to this point and how everyone's grown more and more tired over how Iran and Syria are unable to change their ways regardless of the heavy sanctions and treaties imposed upon them. Not helped that they keep spawning terrorist groups meaning there's probably never going to be an end to the crisis until someone nukes Iran and their allies off the map or just gives up and let Israel and Saudi Arabia handle it with no outside help.
 

ChuckSlaughter

You mean I got about 200 bitcoins
kiwifarms.net
At no point is Kim Jon Un a rational state actor.

And I am wracking my brain trying to think of the last time appeasement had a good ending. I'm as far back as Ethelred the Unready, and it didn't work for him, either.
"Appeasement" is normal diplomacy in the rest of the modern world and it's brought us out of the stone age. Please go sign up to fight if your balls are so big.
 

AnOminous

do you see what happens
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
"Appeasement" is normal diplomacy in the rest of the modern world and it's brought us out of the stone age. Please go sign up to fight if your balls are so big.
There's diplomacy and there's appeasement. Appeasement is when you just roll over while someone is rolling all over Europe. Diplomacy is something shy of that. Most of what North Korea has done is either internal to their country, and we aren't going in there to stop it, or dumb blustering without much behind it. Only fairly recently has there been much actual threat brought by the Norks.

Bringing a non-negotiable demand of denuclearization in one hand and a list of nice things that could happen for you if you do that isn't appeasement.

If Trump actually unilaterally moves the troops off the border without verifying the nuclear program is entirely dismantled, I'll reassess that, because that actually would be appeasement.
 

ChuckSlaughter

You mean I got about 200 bitcoins
kiwifarms.net
There's diplomacy and there's appeasement. Appeasement is when you just roll over while someone is rolling all over Europe. Diplomacy is something shy of that. Most of what North Korea has done is either internal to their country, and we aren't going in there to stop it, or dumb blustering without much behind it. Only fairly recently has there been much actual threat brought by the Norks.

Bringing a non-negotiable demand of denuclearization in one hand and a list of nice things that could happen for you if you do that isn't appeasement.

If Trump actually unilaterally moves the troops off the border without verifying the nuclear program is entirely dismantled, I'll reassess that, because that actually would be appeasement.
This is true. I don't really picture Trump giving without taking but then again he's a wildcard so he could do just about anything.
 

Sable

DANGEROUSLY WELCOMING IN THE NEW YEAR
Birthday
kiwifarms.net
At no point is Kim Jon Un a rational state actor.

And I am wracking my brain trying to think of the last time appeasement had a good ending. I'm as far back as Ethelred the Unready, and it didn't work for him, either.
Appeasement was done by Chamberlain for two reasons.

1) The public at large did not want a major war at this point; the Great War had completely ruined Britains finances and eviscerated a generation.
2) Britain was not ready for another massive war on the scale of the Great War, the 20's and early 30's were financially disastrous and had done a number on military development. Britain needed time to build up in order to prepare, and appeasement bought time.
 

AnOminous

do you see what happens
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
Appeasement was done by Chamberlain for two reasons.

1) The public at large did not want a major war at this point; the Great War had completely ruined Britains finances and eviscerated a generation.
2) Britain was not ready for another massive war on the scale of the Great War, the 20's and early 30's were financially disastrous and had done a number on military development. Britain needed time to build up in order to prepare, and appeasement bought time.
Unfortunately, it was disastrous in the long run. What it really allowed time for was for Nazi Germany to roll all over Europe, gobble up entire countries and rape their resources to build more military, and get to be much more of a danger than they would have been had they been quashed earlier when Nazi Germany was still fairly weak. The Germans ramped up production of military goods, trained their troops and turned them into one of the most formidable armed forces ever put together in history, full of hardened veterans.
 

Sable

DANGEROUSLY WELCOMING IN THE NEW YEAR
Birthday
kiwifarms.net
We know it was disastrous now because we have hindsight, they made that decision with the information they had at the time.

The appeasing powers chose that because as far as they were aware, Nazi Germany was already a threat that they would need time to prepare for. They didn't know for example that the German forces before appeasment had actually been ordered to surrender if they were opposed at all.

The thing is though, technically speaking none of the major powers were ready for war, or at least not as ready as they wanted to be (especially Italy, they wanted more time to prepare by like, two years) but the German economy had basically sunk everything into its military and was going to collapse if it didn't start basically looting.

This is pretty :offtopic: though, and I don't think it's really an issue when it comes to North Korea.
 

Jigglyjogglers

The Doctor Bashir guy
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
This is pretty :offtopic: though, and I don't think it's really an issue when it comes to North Korea.
Correct. Without a nuclear arsenal North Korea is an extremely limited threat to anyone but South Korea. Even if we gave them ten years of complete noninterference and let them do whatever the fuck they want other than making nuclear missiles... hell, assume we gave them South Korea, if that was something we could do... they are never going to be able to field a force that would be able to do what the Nazis did. They cannot conquer anything off of their own landmass. They just don't have the troops or infrastructure for it. Even if they clapped a helmet on the head, rifle in the hand, and explosive collar around the neck of every single one of their citizens and tried to ship them somewhere to stage an invasion, they can't do jack shit but cause some chaos. Where would they try it? Japan? We'd have American troops deployed there in huge numbers so fast you'd think they announced free pussy at the soaplands. China? Even if the Norks weren't China's bitch, and even with the fact that most of China's military equipment is shitty knockoffs of our stuff that Bill Clinton sold them the plans to, the sheer number of Chinese military, and Chinese people, would mean the Koreans would be able to do fuckall without support or backup from someone else, and no one would give it specifically because they can't win.

It was dangerous to appease the Nazis because they had an entire continent to spread out over and make use of, as well as the capability and forces to take over the infrastructure of conquered areas and make use of it. Even if what we were doing with North Korea was "appeasement", without reliably working intercontinental missiles and the capability to go nuclear they're like a step and a half up from harmless.
 
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