Containment Official Decision Regarding Gender and Chris/Gender Discussion Megathread -
- Thread starter Null
- Start date
Pronouns are overrated.
But seriously, I recommend we refrain from making an issue either way over pronouns and Chris until we actually do see someone else out there on the interwebs making a big deal of it. Somehow I kind of suspect that the usual crowd who make a big deal about "correct" pronouns (regardless of which pronouns they think are correct) will make an exception in their crusade where Chris is concerned. I mean transsexuals already have enough problems to deal with without also having Chris associated with them. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they turn out to be the ones most opposed to recognizing Chris' trans status. Were I a trans woman or a trans man I know I would probably want to minimize the possibilities for comparisons with Chris.
tl;dr: Defending "proper pronouns" is all well and good until one realizes they are also defending Chris.
But seriously, I recommend we refrain from making an issue either way over pronouns and Chris until we actually do see someone else out there on the interwebs making a big deal of it. Somehow I kind of suspect that the usual crowd who make a big deal about "correct" pronouns (regardless of which pronouns they think are correct) will make an exception in their crusade where Chris is concerned. I mean transsexuals already have enough problems to deal with without also having Chris associated with them. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they turn out to be the ones most opposed to recognizing Chris' trans status. Were I a trans woman or a trans man I know I would probably want to minimize the possibilities for comparisons with Chris.
tl;dr: Defending "proper pronouns" is all well and good until one realizes they are also defending Chris.
It's probably more accurate to say Chris identifies with his own special snowflake cargo-culty image of womanhood than as what most people would consider a woman. And to be fair, that's not entirely his fault. After all, the closest, most immediate example of womanhood he has to learn from and emulate is, well, Barb.
BigAltheGreat921
kiwifarms.net
Eh, I'm not sure what to think, at least not yet. Maybe if/when we hear more from Chris on the subject I'll have a more definite answer.
Despite Chris's laziness and poor attention span, he can be remarkably tenacious when it comes to hanging onto a bad idea. His irrational hatred and fear of other men and their dreaded sour vegetables 
is well documented. For a long time, that fear was written off as a by-product of his sexism and homophobia. Now we have an alternate explanation and... I'm truly stumped. To put it charitably, both explanations make an equal amount of sense. For all we know, it just took him this long to finally stumble onto a definition of "transgender" that was watered-down enough to let him join the club without having to, y'know, do anything.
As everyone else has said, some time with a proper shrink could sort all of this out, but come on. He's not doing that, and if he did he'd be weeded out at the first opportunity. Getting his duck inverted won't magically cure him of penis-hatred, and if I was a psychiatrist I'd be much more interested in that than in his lesbian tomsoul.
tl;dr: Chris is so full of shit about so many things that we just have to wait and see if he commits to this. If that happens, female pronouns it is!
is well documented. For a long time, that fear was written off as a by-product of his sexism and homophobia. Now we have an alternate explanation and... I'm truly stumped. To put it charitably, both explanations make an equal amount of sense. For all we know, it just took him this long to finally stumble onto a definition of "transgender" that was watered-down enough to let him join the club without having to, y'know, do anything.As everyone else has said, some time with a proper shrink could sort all of this out, but come on. He's not doing that, and if he did he'd be weeded out at the first opportunity. Getting his duck inverted won't magically cure him of penis-hatred, and if I was a psychiatrist I'd be much more interested in that than in his lesbian tomsoul.
tl;dr: Chris is so full of shit about so many things that we just have to wait and see if he commits to this. If that happens, female pronouns it is!
Does anybody think this new "change" is another one of his signature methods of dodging responsibility in a way?
He didn't like what was required of him as a "man" because it meant responsibility he couldn't face, so he looked for another excuse to rationalize his lifestyle. I'm not saying he isn't really trans, but i'm not sure exactly what that means either. It's a combination of nature and nurture, but in Chris's case it also includes convenience.
Like it or not, a lot of people find comfort in the more extreme aspects of social justice causes because it excuses a lack of accountability. It's a "feel good" rationalization to problems people don't want to admit. Instead of "ok, yea, i'm different but i can still function in society and find my way" it sometimes becomes "you will accept me for who i am, and you have no right to question or challenge me. clear the way!" It turns a persons "difference" into their defining trait, and idea which can be applied to justify all other aspects of someones lifestyle.
Some people need help standing up for themselves and finding strength to embrace their sexuality but other people use it as a way to have their cake and eat it too.
Chris's hatred of men isn't something that hard to understand given his upbringing and experiences, but it's still a problem he could come to terms with and grow from. Instead, he found the safe, easy place where he doesn't need to think about self improvement - we need to think about how we can improve to better accommodate him.
Note: if this post isn't appropriate here, please delete it.
He didn't like what was required of him as a "man" because it meant responsibility he couldn't face, so he looked for another excuse to rationalize his lifestyle. I'm not saying he isn't really trans, but i'm not sure exactly what that means either. It's a combination of nature and nurture, but in Chris's case it also includes convenience.
Like it or not, a lot of people find comfort in the more extreme aspects of social justice causes because it excuses a lack of accountability. It's a "feel good" rationalization to problems people don't want to admit. Instead of "ok, yea, i'm different but i can still function in society and find my way" it sometimes becomes "you will accept me for who i am, and you have no right to question or challenge me. clear the way!" It turns a persons "difference" into their defining trait, and idea which can be applied to justify all other aspects of someones lifestyle.
Some people need help standing up for themselves and finding strength to embrace their sexuality but other people use it as a way to have their cake and eat it too.
Chris's hatred of men isn't something that hard to understand given his upbringing and experiences, but it's still a problem he could come to terms with and grow from. Instead, he found the safe, easy place where he doesn't need to think about self improvement - we need to think about how we can improve to better accommodate him.
Note: if this post isn't appropriate here, please delete it.
I've heard a lot of abhorrible things said about Chris, but nothing warrants a thread less than weather or not to call him he or she. Tube is still just going to call him fatty, and I'm tempted to jump on the bandwagon.
Da Big Staw
kiwifarms.net
see, i think for many people it's more a result of societal factors and mental illness. I once read MTF trannys are 10x more common then FTM. That seems very wrong to me. It also seems very odd a person could have hormonal imbalances to the degree of thinking they are a women for a time, only for those imbalances to correct themselves.
Many guys like Chris simply find the stereotypical "passive" female lifestyle and societal expectations more attractive. They maybe like a few things that are "cute" or "girly" and their mind decides they must be a women in a mans body. The online hug boxs like tumblr just amplify this.
It's basically a public heath issue that no one wants to touch because for some reason we throw trannies in with gays and lesbians and don't want to be seen as questioning them.
Thanks for not enforcing a specific pronoun, Null and Staff, it's the best choice available, I think.
So, where do I stand?
I do support people that come out as the other gender, whatever they think about themselves is none of my business and if (for instance) some guy realizes he has been a girl at heart (or vice versa) I feel no need to rain on their parade. To the contrary, coming to such a conclusion certainly isn't easy and actually going through with it takes a lot of guts, so more power to them.
However this is Chris we are talking about. And that makes stuff very complicated. Many people have brought up countless good points one way or the other but for me, I guess I'll stick with male pronouns as of now. The reasoning behind that is simple:
I do not doubt for the smallest fraction of a second that Chris has genuine gender issues and suffers from quite a lot of confusion regarding this matter. But that's exactly what's so troublesome to me: I think Chris isn't just confused about his own gender but rather the very idea and concept of what gender is, what it means to a person and how it affects ones mindset. In a way, I think his understanding of gender is more like a label he can wear if he wants to on the one hand and there's quite some frustration and confusion about his own body, feelings and urges on the other. Being unhappy with himself, his life, his future, his inability to find a mate and his (let's be honest) completely fucked up social life... that's just a big heap of issues to deal with.
So in a way, I think his gender confusion that he now tries to work out by calling himself a woman isn't part of a solution or a step into a better understanding of himself, but rather another symptom. Chris needs help and guidance and I do not think this "I am a woman now" is going to achieve that (at least directly).
It's one way to deal with the things that bug him, but I don't think it's the only way. It is -for better or for worse- what Chris ended up with doing, so I hope he somehow pulls through.
So what am I trying to get at here?
I sincerely doubt Chris can be transgendered, cause I don't think Chris has a well-enough understanding to come to such an admittedly big conclusion. It might sound silly, but I don't consider Chris trans- or cisgender. For a lack of a better term he's Chrisgender.
So for the time being, I will refer to him as a he. This is not meant to be disrespectful towards anyone who's suffering or has suffered from Gender Dysphoria, this is not meant to insult people who went, will go through or have received a gender reassignment. It's also not set in stone, I might change it in the future if I feel it appropriate, but for now, I don't.
Again: I hope I do not offend anyone or cause hard feelings, it's just my current conclusion to this new developement written after a long day of work.
PS: Sorry if this got a bit wordy or confusing.
So, where do I stand?
I do support people that come out as the other gender, whatever they think about themselves is none of my business and if (for instance) some guy realizes he has been a girl at heart (or vice versa) I feel no need to rain on their parade. To the contrary, coming to such a conclusion certainly isn't easy and actually going through with it takes a lot of guts, so more power to them.
However this is Chris we are talking about. And that makes stuff very complicated. Many people have brought up countless good points one way or the other but for me, I guess I'll stick with male pronouns as of now. The reasoning behind that is simple:
I do not doubt for the smallest fraction of a second that Chris has genuine gender issues and suffers from quite a lot of confusion regarding this matter. But that's exactly what's so troublesome to me: I think Chris isn't just confused about his own gender but rather the very idea and concept of what gender is, what it means to a person and how it affects ones mindset. In a way, I think his understanding of gender is more like a label he can wear if he wants to on the one hand and there's quite some frustration and confusion about his own body, feelings and urges on the other. Being unhappy with himself, his life, his future, his inability to find a mate and his (let's be honest) completely fucked up social life... that's just a big heap of issues to deal with.
So in a way, I think his gender confusion that he now tries to work out by calling himself a woman isn't part of a solution or a step into a better understanding of himself, but rather another symptom. Chris needs help and guidance and I do not think this "I am a woman now" is going to achieve that (at least directly).
It's one way to deal with the things that bug him, but I don't think it's the only way. It is -for better or for worse- what Chris ended up with doing, so I hope he somehow pulls through.
So what am I trying to get at here?
I sincerely doubt Chris can be transgendered, cause I don't think Chris has a well-enough understanding to come to such an admittedly big conclusion. It might sound silly, but I don't consider Chris trans- or cisgender. For a lack of a better term he's Chrisgender.
So for the time being, I will refer to him as a he. This is not meant to be disrespectful towards anyone who's suffering or has suffered from Gender Dysphoria, this is not meant to insult people who went, will go through or have received a gender reassignment. It's also not set in stone, I might change it in the future if I feel it appropriate, but for now, I don't.
Again: I hope I do not offend anyone or cause hard feelings, it's just my current conclusion to this new developement written after a long day of work.
PS: Sorry if this got a bit wordy or confusing.
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It seems plausible, because in fetal development, the baby starts out as a female embryo. It then turns male. That is why men have nipples. The idea that the development process fucks up more frequently for men falls very much in line with how I understand human birth.
I'm kinda glad that Chris is more secure about his/her gender.
pretty much this
My views on this subject pretty much match Null's. I will continue to refer to Chris in the male gender, pierced-taint/tomgirl-clothes or no.
Panzer IV
kiwifarms.net
Im not trying to a-log or disrespect the LGBT community, but for me, talking about this particular case, this trasgender female soul story is just a mix of mental illness, sexual frustration and an adult crisis. Back then he trasformed into chrischan sonichu now he wants to be a woman and could have been anything else.
I understand why null has to cover his ass about this sensitive subject, but I would be surprised if someone who doesn't know him in person starts to use "she" or "her" on the forums.
I understand why null has to cover his ass about this sensitive subject, but I would be surprised if someone who doesn't know him in person starts to use "she" or "her" on the forums.
Da Big Staw
kiwifarms.net
The only thing that worries me is if the "Make it absolutely clear your referring to Chris if you call him a women" rule is not enforced much then It has the potential to make Chris threads very confusing.
Also, don't think it's Null covering his ass so much ,as he mentioned in a thread a while back, Tranny Drama is the #1 killer of online community's. Null simply wants to make sure it does not poison the forums so hes proactively attempting to stop it by having clear rules on crap like this.
And that's fine. My decision was reached as blanket one, just to make things easier on myself; I call people what they want to be called. You want to be called him, fine. Next week, her? Fine, it's your life. Non-gendered pronouns. Good for you. Someone wants to be called xi/wolfkin/made-up-word? I'll tell them to fuck off (I have limits). But usually, I'm fine with whatever people wanna do, so long as they're not hurting anyone or doing anything illegal.
I do have a tendency to doubt the legitimacy of someone switching pronouns suddenly without much thought, especially with someone like Chris who doesn't seem to know what he's doing. But if he wants to be called by female pronouns, I'll call him by...
Shit, I'm already forgetting. Fuck it, I'm back to call him a guy.
He always was a solipsist.
So Rose/Roses/Chuself is out? Damn
It is difficult to tell where Chris lies. I will try to recommend a sensible, supplementary optional course of action to help people avoid turning every thread into an SJW debate.
A full dissertation on what transgender behaviour is and isn't doesn't belong in this post, so I will preface with only a few choice facts for illustration. Medical professionals and psychologists are currently in agreement that cross-gender behaviour is not itself pathological, and that psychological distress relating to one's bodily features is a recognised mental disorder responsive to many therapies including but not limited to surgical and social transition. I'm not saying you have to believe the same things, I'm saying this is the current peer-reviewed medical orthodoxy.
On to Chris. I used to think Chris wasn't transgender and merely played dress-up. I'm not so sure of that now after some things I've seen. I have seen e-mails, some maybe still unreleased, where Chris spoke very clearly in hating his genitals. Among other things, this is a token symptom of gender dysphoria according to medical professionals. It's tempting to say he's parroting the typical narrative of transsexualism (the dick-hate is very cliched), but the interesting thing is, he doesn't appear to have had any interaction with other transgenders, the TG community, or even read about it much online. This could go much beyond dress-up for Chris, because he's throwing up every transsexual stereotype without having knowledge of any of them.
Chris is a Virginia southern hillbilly carelessly raised by Greatest Generation conservatives at the height of both AIDS and the Moral Majority's influence on US politics. The modern conception of transsexualism isn't even a thing in his mind. So why or how else would be be (mostly) fitting the typical transsexual narrative? Only a professional can truly diagnose Chris with a disorder, if he even has any, but my arm-chair opinion is that he is exhibiting token transgender behavior without having any basis to mimic it off. Chris hates his dick, wants a boobjob, and thinks his ripped taint piercing is an effective labial substitute. He needs help. Unfortunately he's not going to get it, so there's not much of a chance he'll ever receive an official psych diagnosis on the matter.
This question extends to anyone else coping with transgender feelings. Had Chris received a professional, informed diagnosis and carefully developed therapy plan, I would've highly encouraged (but not forced) everyone to use the female pronoun as it has scientific and professional merit backing it. Absent a diagnosis, the answer is not as clear and largely falls to personal philosophy.
My suggested, optional course of action will therefore follow guidelines that those in the medical profession will use. These are not forum policy but rather should help you navigate this issue in the same way a doctor or other informed professional would.
A full dissertation on what transgender behaviour is and isn't doesn't belong in this post, so I will preface with only a few choice facts for illustration. Medical professionals and psychologists are currently in agreement that cross-gender behaviour is not itself pathological, and that psychological distress relating to one's bodily features is a recognised mental disorder responsive to many therapies including but not limited to surgical and social transition. I'm not saying you have to believe the same things, I'm saying this is the current peer-reviewed medical orthodoxy.
On to Chris. I used to think Chris wasn't transgender and merely played dress-up. I'm not so sure of that now after some things I've seen. I have seen e-mails, some maybe still unreleased, where Chris spoke very clearly in hating his genitals. Among other things, this is a token symptom of gender dysphoria according to medical professionals. It's tempting to say he's parroting the typical narrative of transsexualism (the dick-hate is very cliched), but the interesting thing is, he doesn't appear to have had any interaction with other transgenders, the TG community, or even read about it much online. This could go much beyond dress-up for Chris, because he's throwing up every transsexual stereotype without having knowledge of any of them.
Chris is a Virginia southern hillbilly carelessly raised by Greatest Generation conservatives at the height of both AIDS and the Moral Majority's influence on US politics. The modern conception of transsexualism isn't even a thing in his mind. So why or how else would be be (mostly) fitting the typical transsexual narrative? Only a professional can truly diagnose Chris with a disorder, if he even has any, but my arm-chair opinion is that he is exhibiting token transgender behavior without having any basis to mimic it off. Chris hates his dick, wants a boobjob, and thinks his ripped taint piercing is an effective labial substitute. He needs help. Unfortunately he's not going to get it, so there's not much of a chance he'll ever receive an official psych diagnosis on the matter.
This question extends to anyone else coping with transgender feelings. Had Chris received a professional, informed diagnosis and carefully developed therapy plan, I would've highly encouraged (but not forced) everyone to use the female pronoun as it has scientific and professional merit backing it. Absent a diagnosis, the answer is not as clear and largely falls to personal philosophy.
My suggested, optional course of action will therefore follow guidelines that those in the medical profession will use. These are not forum policy but rather should help you navigate this issue in the same way a doctor or other informed professional would.
- If Chris receives a diagnosis affirming both gender dysphoria and the suggested theraputic course is social transition, the best practice is to refer to Chris as a female.
- If Chris asserts himself repeatedly as female but receives no professional affirmation, Chris will be legally and professionally regarded as male. Without a diagnosis, Chris or anyone else does not have a well-informed or scientific basis to claim that female fits him best. Either identity is fine and acceptable to use, but understand that living and being seen as male may not be best for him.
- Calling Chris an "it" is not particularly best practice as "it" carries one of three connotations: kinky sex play, being Vade, or insulting someone. No mainstream body recognises or promulgates "it" as a legitimate third pronoun.
- Referring to Chris as non-binary no matter what identity he asserts is not good practice as non-binary identities are poorly defined and not medically substantiated. Emerging MRI studies posit a neurological analogue to being sexually chimeric but this is not enough to prove the legitimacy of non-binary taxonomy.
- Chris knows his feelings better than any of us, but he cannot articulate them properly and we thus cannot interpret them as either legitimate or non-legitimate. Nobody here is a psychologist. If you are, you have not talked to him in a deductive and professional setting. Arguing about whether or not he is truly transgender is a futile endeavor.
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Sonichus and Rosechu's exist in another dimension alongside all fiction characters that are and ever will be made. So technically go for it.
