On the question of bullying -

Also, it's completely normal for primates to challenge one another to ascertain social status. Watch Discovery. Monkeys and apes do it all the time. Those on the lower level mate less if ever, they also get bullied or dicked with all the time. Those on the higher level mate more but have to fight harder and usually don't last.
Social status exists if you give a damn. Given what passes for "high class" in the 'elite' circles, I'll give it a complete miss.
 
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The problem with ostracism for broad brush "deviation" is that it leads to purity spirals.

Society is not a static structure. It changes and evolves as any organism does. Purity spirals lead to stagnation. Consider any backwater tribe doing the same things their ancestors have for millennia. Dollars to donuts they have driven out every "witch" that ever came up with a new idea that deviated from the orthodoxy. When they run into societies that haven't been so vehement in their rejection of any/everything different and new, they usually wind up conquered or destroyed.

Sometimes we must consider some very unorthodox shit, but society ultimately benefits in the long run. Even a discarded idea grants the collective a measure of immunity because it has been explored and disproven, and some may even bear a bit of review down the line as they are too before their time for people to fully understand them as the frame of reference that makes the context click hasn't yet been developed (Ignaz Semmelweis comes to mind).

That said, mockery and scorn can provide the rough terrain in the proving grounds of ideas and memes, and challenging orthodoxies should not be something that one walks in to expecting acquiescence. The idea must prove it's value, or at the very least it's lack of net harm.

Think of Conservativism as society's Yin and Liberalism as it's Yang. Too much Yin and you wind up with stasis. Too much Yang and you've got chaos. Both of these camps commit ostracism when their members "deviate", while the center generally tolerates anyone who doesn't go flying off into the extremes (which is itself a form of intolerance if you really think about it) and makes it possible for the yin and yang to be diluted away from their respective purity spirals. Thus, by maintaining actual diversity (ideas especially), a healthy society evolves at it's own strange pace.
 
You mean the alpha male in the group? I'm sorry to be the one to reveal this to you but most of the world is run by 'not very smart' people if you fancy working in any medium-large scale enterprise at any point in the future better learn to work with them. Pack mentality still applies many aspects of our lifes we dont think about; Politics, Marketing, Social Media and bullying.


If a little bullying gets someone on the Lolcow boards then they are on the board in all timelines



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Your definition of alpha male is interesting. I would argue that the alpha male is the one who is adept at getting people to work together towards his goals, and is able to effectively illustrate to them how those goals are mutually beneficial. Using brute force to get people to do something sometimes works short term, but leads to a negative view of the aggressor. I think thats why communist countries fail, because the citizens are unwilling participants for the most part due to lack of emphasis on individual needs. A lot of people who fit the description you quoted certainly see themselves as alpha males, but I believe the fact that this view is not shared by their peers speaks volumes about its validity.
 

Slappy McGherkin

Bartender? Make that a double.
True & Honest Fan
Will our ideas of what is "normal" be drastically altered in a short period of time?

Quite likely this. I need merely cite some of the changes that have occurred in my but brief span on this mortal coil.

  • I didn't know any kids when I went to school whose parents were divorced/single parent. Mom stayed home and raised the kids, dad went to work everyday.
  • Although there were always gays, I never knew any and no one promoted the gay lifestyle or had parades to celebrate it. Trans fits here as well. It was simply an unheard of thing when I was growing up. There were tom boys and there were sissies, but nobody had an addadictome or wang removal. Least of all, parents encouraging Johnny to be Jennie or vice-versa.
  • I didn't get ostracized for asking my white 2nd grade teacher why she kissed a black child on Valentine's Day. I was raised in the south. You just didn't do that.
  • Feminism occurred. We're still tallying the results of that one.
  • Pot was illegal; I smoked it with all my hippy cool kid buddies. Never thought I'd see the day it would be legal, but there's three legal shops within a mile I could go get some today.
  • There were Republicans and there were Democrats and guess what? They could actually talk to each other and work together for the common good. Government has since dissolved into complete dysfunction.
  • We always had a picture of the President in our living room. Most families did. I still remember the tragedy of my mother crying, in near hysterics, the day I got home from school when JFK was shot. She loved that man. Many Americans did.
  • From Playboy magazines (pilfered from dad and hidden in the tree fort) to Pornhub. Simple admiration of the woman's body and good looks to exactly what deviancy would you like served today, hot or cold?
  • Technology. Won't even go into detail here, other than relate a story of my son when he was young. Dad!!! Can you come fix the TV? Okay, what's wrong with it? LOOK AT IT DAD! There's no color! (It was a black and white show; he had never seen anything but color television). I don't think anyone can predict how the wildcard that is technology will change society in the next 20, 30, etc. years. But I'm not optimistic it will be for the better.
  • Social Media. While an early adopter of it (used to chat host AOL, had MySpace, Facebook), I've since shunned it all. I have a few forums for discussion and interaction, but mostly have reverted back to the old ways of actually having in person conversations with people.
The problem with subverting normal for a "new normal" is like Pandora's box. Once you open it, there's no getting it back in the box if it doesn't work out so well.
 
The problem with ostracism for broad brush "deviation" is that it leads to purity spirals.

Society is not a static structure. It changes and evolves as any organism does. Purity spirals lead to stagnation. Consider any backwater tribe doing the same things their ancestors have for millennia. Dollars to donuts they have driven out every "witch" that ever came up with a new idea that deviated from the orthodoxy. When they run into societies that haven't been so vehement in their rejection of any/everything different and new, they usually wind up conquered or destroyed.

Sometimes we must consider some very unorthodox shit, but society ultimately benefits in the long run. Even a discarded idea grants the collective a measure of immunity because it has been explored and disproven, and some may even bear a bit of review down the line as they are too before their time for people to fully understand them as the frame of reference that makes the context click hasn't yet been developed (Ignaz Semmelweis comes to mind).

That said, mockery and scorn can provide the rough terrain in the proving grounds of ideas and memes, and challenging orthodoxies should not be something that one walks in to expecting acquiescence. The idea must prove it's value, or at the very least it's lack of net harm.

Think of Conservativism as society's Yin and Liberalism as it's Yang. Too much Yin and you wind up with stasis. Too much Yang and you've got chaos. Both of these camps commit ostracism when their members "deviate", while the center generally tolerates anyone who doesn't go flying off into the extremes (which is itself a form of intolerance if you really think about it) and makes it possible for the yin and yang to be diluted away from their respective purity spirals. Thus, by maintaining actual diversity (ideas especially), a healthy society evolves at it's own strange pace.
I think you make some really good points. Its definitely referenced way to much but the Stanford Prison Experiment illustrated this; the fact that the category of acceptance was perpetually shrinking in such an environment. You also see this a lot in systems like fascism that try to create an artificial lower class to stabilize the upper class, and as a result of the inevitable consolidation of wealth the upper class shrinks and shrinks and become more and more stringently defined. I forgot all about the SPE and I hadn't considered the other part until now.

Edit: does this board autocorrect "fascism" to "racism"?
 

Mewtwo_Rain

Drown in the cesspool of darkness
The problem with subverting normal for a "new normal" is like Pandora's box. Once you open it, there's no getting it back in the box if it doesn't work out so well.


I have to fully agree, which is why society is supposed to be somewhat intelligent when making such a risk vs. reward choice or conversion. The problem I see is modern society has adopted impulsive (Taking large gambles) traits and now we are seeing the full blown consequences of those choices (stupidity)...
 

Slappy McGherkin

Bartender? Make that a double.
True & Honest Fan
By a strange coincidence I am headed to Mexico in the Cabo San Lucas area on a family reunion getaway trip in two days. Thank you for the travel advisory, but I think we'll probably stick to fishing. I was not aware this was a thing though. The legality of it, if applicable, makes me wonder about how this came to be accepted in Mexican society.

They don't have Donkey shows in Cabo. But you can get a picture of yourself hanging upside down, as if a marlin caught you, at the Giggling Marlin. Enjoy and good luck fishing!

There are plenty of things accepted in Mexican society that are taboo here. One I've always found amusing is being a mariposa (gay). You are only considered gay if you are the catcher. If you're the pitcher, you're not gay. Same with trannies. Only the tranny is gay, not you if you have sex with it.
 
I have two main thoughts on bullying:
  1. plz no bully
  2. Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Cyber Bullying Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Away From The Screen Like Nigga Close Your Eyes Haha
 

KeyserBroze

Sleep is for people who run out of Cocaine
Your definition of alpha male is interesting. I would argue that the alpha male is the one who is adept at getting people to work together towards his goals, and is able to effectively illustrate to them how those goals are mutually beneficial. Using brute force to get people to do something sometimes works short term, but leads to a negative view of the aggressor. I think thats why communist countries fail, because the citizens are unwilling participants for the most part due to lack of emphasis on individual needs. A lot of people who fit the description you quoted certainly see themselves as alpha males, but I believe the fact that this view is not shared by their peers speaks volumes about its validity.

I cant help but get the impression you are speaking from a theoretical position.

The 21st century corporation is a perfect metaphor, the person you're referencing that gets everyone to work together is future middle management material. Intelligence does not rise to the top, in reality it is utilized where it provides the most benefit inside of the existing structure.

Communism consistently fails not because of lack of emphasis on individual needs but because even if those who initiate it have the best intentions it relies on a fanciful interpretation of human nature and as a result is twisted to serve it so that it ends with an emphasis on a small number of individuals needs. Capitalism thrives because it taps into primal aspects of human nature and gamified it these people that thrive in this environment are not driven by the opinions of their peers.
 

Mewtwo_Rain

Drown in the cesspool of darkness
I have two main thoughts on bullying:
  1. plz no bully
  2. Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Cyber Bullying Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Away From The Screen Like Nigga Close Your Eyes Haha
Although I agree with #2, #2, seems to be an ingrained psychological effect. It's the same with telemarketing, they teach us at that profession that most people forget they are in control of the phone call and simply forget they can (in this case: Cyber bullying) walk away with little problem, or in my analogy just turn off the phone without having to wait for any input from the person on the other end of the line.
 

TiggerNits

Yankee vampire living off the blood of the poor
True & Honest Fan
By a strange coincidence I am headed to Mexico in the Cabo San Lucas area on a family reunion getaway trip in two days. Thank you for the travel advisory, but I think we'll probably stick to fishing. I was not aware this was a thing though. The legality of it, if applicable, makes me wonder about how this came to be accepted in Mexican society.

prostitutes int he 50s and 60s had a weird arms race to see what they could get someone to pay them for. Seriously
 
Alpha males are not necessarily the smartest, just have big balls to get to the top of the ladder or die trying. It's a mix of a lot of things, but end result is domination.

When I was saying that primates frequently fight to determine social status, bullying is a secondary side effect. Lower ranks get shit on.

Back in motherland, in our class, everyone knew who is the strongest kid, who is the weakest and everyone in between because we had constant fights on daily basis to figure out who was stronger and who could do what. The top guy wasn't only the strongest, but also best socially adjusted to maintain enough friends in lower ranks to prevent collective ass whooping by the lower ranks unto him. In retrospect, it wasn't that easy, but he def wasn't the smartest of the bunch.
 
I cant help but get the impression you are speaking from a theoretical position.

The 21st century corporation is a perfect metaphor, the person you're referencing that gets everyone to work together is future middle management material. Intelligence does not rise to the top, in reality it is utilized where it provides the most benefit inside of the existing structure.

Communism consistently fails not because of lack of emphasis on individual needs but because even if those who initiate it have the best intentions it relies on a fanciful interpretation of human nature and as a result is twisted to serve it so that it ends with an emphasis on a small number of individuals needs. Capitalism thrives because it taps into primal aspects of human nature and gamified it these people that thrive in this environment are not driven by the opinions of their peers.
This is a fair point. Ive been asked to go into management before and I chose to go a different route because I don't like managing people. I'm the type of guy who prefers to do everything personally because I dont trust others to get it done. I definitely don't see myself as the alpha male archetype the corporate world, but its also not something I aspire to. I definitely feel my role is important; without it management wouldn't have anything to manage. I don't see myself as one from a social perspective either, and again I don't feel like its something I want to aspire to. For the record, I am very comfortable in my identity as "male", and whatever subcategory or personality type I fit into I'm content with that identity. From an existential standpoint I think thats really all anybody could ask for.

On the communism comments I agree wholeheartedly and can't really refute any of it.
 
Communism consistently fails not because of lack of emphasis on individual needs but because even if those who initiate it have the best intentions it relies on a fanciful interpretation of human nature and as a result is twisted to serve it so that it ends with an emphasis on a small number of individuals needs. Capitalism thrives because it taps into primal aspects of human nature and gamified it these people that thrive in this environment are not driven by the opinions of their peers.

Communism work on a scale of a family. Everyone works according to his ability, everyone eats at the same table or according to their need. If someone is sick, we provide extra support needed. On larger scale ... not so much. Humans are selfish fuckers.

Capitalism ... you probably mean individualism, opposite of socialism.
 
R

RG 448

Guest
kiwifarms.net
They buck the fuck up. They consider their life choices and actions. They think about what led them to be ostracized. And maybe, just maybe...they change for the better.
When I was in high school I didn’t back off if the nerd changed their ways. I hassled them more for compromising their identity. Then if the nerd switched back, I’d slam them for caving to peer pressure. The key to good bullying is making sure the nerds know they’ll be miserable no matter what they do and that there’s no hope.
 

Slappy McGherkin

Bartender? Make that a double.
True & Honest Fan
I support more bullying because people wouldn't be such faggots if they were bullied more.

Whatever, faggot. (Totally kidding, I actually agree with you.)

When I was a kid, somebody pissed you off and you called 'em out on it, and that often turned into punches and tard wrestling. Then, you'd shake hands, let it go, and be back to friends again within a day or so. Today's kids have been so overly protected from EVERYTHING that most have no ability at all to deal with conflict, whether words on the Intarwebs or somebody calling them a name in public. Total lack of coping skills.
 
2. They buck the fuck up. They consider their life choices and actions. They think about what led them to be ostracized. And maybe, just maybe...they change for the better.

Genetics has shown us that throughout natural history that the genes of "desirable" traits get passed on in society, and "undesirable" ones eventually die off.

Maybe the practice of "outcasting" is the mechanism by which society ensures the accurate and beneficial propagation of its "memetic code".
Who decides what "better" is? The socioculture is not stable and has only grown more volatile with the slow invasion of internet into the common man's life. All evidence indicates electronics are not compatible with the prototypical normal human being's mental well-being or development in any way. The introduction of weak-ass versions of our net2.0 via television and radio singlehandedly ruined how decades of politics, centuries of social discourse, and millennia upon millennia of war were handled. The "better" of yesterday that would have seen you bullied are now methods of accruing social clout.
The biggest fallacy in applying evolutionary theory is a progressive shortening of timescales. It's one thing to insist that you feel the burden of evolution over even a period of time as short as 20,000 years, there's at least a case to be made there, but the present state of education is not only invented, but new. Schools as we know them have only been around a few hundred years and their unique problems are not evolutionary-tested. Ostracization itself is no doubt a method of social control and threat elimination, but the time-scale it works on is far greater than you might think, and more importantly, the target of this ostracization is archaic. Over the past two thousand years the brunt of our advancements as a species has been conducted by a bunch of no-good nerds and degenerates (many of which probably deserved or would have pages on a Kiwi Farms if one existed) yet they have for just as long been the target of outcasting in general; it is actually fair to say that as the cultures of the world grew more functional and advanced, degenerates have only become more tolerated over time. This is not the case with bullying. What gives?
The immune system doesn't know what is "accurate and beneficial", it just knows what should be there, and what shouldn't. Unlike in previous generations where various pressures were applied to force similar outcomes in social acceptability, the new generation often more free in some way than the old but not always, yet now identical pressures are applied to everyone and they are weak. Kids are no longer forced to be tolerant (more accurately polite) by the threat of a beating, and since they learn almost entirely observational and people grow more intolerant with age, they are forced into an environment with few controls, no interest in being there, emergent social politics, and no autonomous reason to tolerate the degenerates and nerds they're thrown in a room with. What emerges from this mess is what you would expect, then, stripped of all the socially enforced patience that peaked with a bunch of faggot nerd assholes freeing everyone from tyranny and granting them unprecedented quality of life: a preference for only the most strong and sociable and distinct disdain for the weird one out. Exceptional sociologists proceed to scratch their head and screech at the education system as it stands in the entire developed world they have no clue why this is happening and that their meta-analysis says that doing it this way should have eliminated all social inequality by the 60's because critical theory is a hell of a drug.
That's what bullying actually is, if we're using biological analogies. A premature allergic reaction hosted in an underdeveloped system designed by half power-drunk Gods of Wisdom and Power™ and beset by foreign bodies of the dot com. Neonatal autoimmune disease for the new generation. The worst thing is that it doesn't even fucking work, as evidenced by the constant degradation of societal norms. "Strong and social" was accurate and beneficial and better in 10,000 BC, but there's no real evidence those things were compatible with humanity what humanity was becoming as it crested into the 20th century, nor is there any evidence that they're in any way compatible with the encroaching technology. More importantly, even if it was still all of those things, the people who are both legitimately "strong and social" are becoming a smaller minority over time, so it isn't fucking working.
To throw one last wrench in, what is the Farms then? A lot more discriminatory, for one. Lolcows tend to be of age or at least flagrantly mentally ill and there's a defacto code of ethics that gets followed usually in 'if they aren't funny, move on'. Unlike bullying which kills the potential growth of genius idiots with fucked up brains who could still be obscenely rich someday, the Farms at this point deals with primarily the outcomes of said bullying, the people who failed that "became normal" lottery you referenced before. It's also good evidence that the internet is fucking everything up in a really intrinsic way, because how can you socially ostracize people you are not social with? Very few people have real contact with lolcows outside of trolling bids or knew them beforehand, an overwhelming minority. They also have very minimal impact on those who abandon the internet fast enough, as if it's a whole different ecosystem. 'Don't go near the water or the Croc will bite!', or Kiwi in this case I guess. You can choose to dissociate from social media and 'net public affairs most of the time but that is not the case with public education.
 

Lemmingwise

Corporal reporting for duty
True & Honest Fan
I conceive as bullying of implicitly or explicitly using either social status or physical strength to dominate or hurt other kids. I don't think the word really works for adults; adult games require adult words.

Though if you think about it, though bullying is bad, how could you stop it?

Well you punish the boy or girl responsible for bullying. Though this is fully just, in some sense, you are yourself doing the same thing, for ostensibly a good goal (protecting a kid). And sometimes the bullying that happens is for a good goal too, because sometimes it isn't the bully that's the problem, it's the kid that looks like a victim that is the problem (by goading, by intentionally acting weird for attention instead of intrinsicly being weird, for being a tattle-tale etcetera).

You have to know the kids and their social dynamics well to judge these things.
 
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