On The State of Israel - Should it exist, or should it not? Is it already just fine, or do some things need to be fixed?
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Sister services, email, and search will continue to be negatively effected by the attacks. I made a thread to talk about it, if you're into networking.
Samson Pumpkin Jr.
kiwifarms.net
why
They can exist but only if they surrender their khazar milkers
wtfNeedSignUp
kiwifarms.net
Depending on how unsafe those anti-Corona vaccines, Pfizer might cause the second holocaust with the 25% vaccination (as of this writing).
Current Israel is dumb; Netanyahu is a dumb cuck.
It’s gotta be the one-state solution for me. Ethnic European Jews, Palestinians, all the rest should be living together with equal rights and guaranteed protection of religious and civil liberties. These kinds of institutions would make sure that even if Jews (religious or ethnic) become a minority, the majority doesn’t have a means of oppressing them.
Call it “Palsrael” if you must. or “Israel 2” if you like sequels. I’m pretty sure the Palestinians would even accept just plain old “Israel” if it means they’re not getting bulldozed any more.
It’s gotta be the one-state solution for me. Ethnic European Jews, Palestinians, all the rest should be living together with equal rights and guaranteed protection of religious and civil liberties. These kinds of institutions would make sure that even if Jews (religious or ethnic) become a minority, the majority doesn’t have a means of oppressing them.
Call it “Palsrael” if you must. or “Israel 2” if you like sequels. I’m pretty sure the Palestinians would even accept just plain old “Israel” if it means they’re not getting bulldozed any more.
I've negotiated the surrender of their khazar milkers and they sent you this as a peace offering:
Look at europe and tell me muslims even care about muhinstitutions
So on top of being a manlet, bitchtits
All thats left for him is going bald and his daughter becoming a superwhore like jennifer white (also jewish btw)
I was wondering where the thread for discussing Israel was.
In an ideal world the Kingdom of Jerusalem would never have fallen and there'd still be a Christian government ruling over the Holy Land. However, this isn't an ideal world and so we have to deal with the consequences of that.
I'm a nationalist, and I believe that all peoples have a right to a homeland, and that this applies to the Jews as much as it does to anyone else. However, because the Jews have been in a diaspora ever since Simon bar Kokhba's revolt, it's hard to point to a specific point on the map and say ”this is a Jewish homeland” because there was no one region on Earth where Jews outnumbered Gentiles until very recently. However, given that the land administered by Israel has been Muslim since the fall of Acre in 1291, it's hard to say that the Jews have a claim to it any more than the Greeks (through the Byzantine Empire), the French (through Jerusalem) or the Turks (through the Ottoman Empire) do. What I do believe is that:
• we should never have written the Balfour declaration and effectively created Israel.
• we should have supported the Palestinian Arabs during the Nakba.
• Israel being one of the few liberal democracies in the region does not mean we in the West should suck it off constantly or that it should be excused from criticism when it fucks the Palestinians over.
• the borders of Israel are artificial, and as I have previously mentioned, Jews do not have any more right to Israel's territory than Greeks, Frenchmen or Turks.
• it is not anti-Semitic to say any of these things and using anti-Semitism as a tool to beat anti-Zionists with diminishes the very real anti-Semitism that Jews have faced and continue to face throughout their history.
In an ideal world the Kingdom of Jerusalem would never have fallen and there'd still be a Christian government ruling over the Holy Land. However, this isn't an ideal world and so we have to deal with the consequences of that.
I'm a nationalist, and I believe that all peoples have a right to a homeland, and that this applies to the Jews as much as it does to anyone else. However, because the Jews have been in a diaspora ever since Simon bar Kokhba's revolt, it's hard to point to a specific point on the map and say ”this is a Jewish homeland” because there was no one region on Earth where Jews outnumbered Gentiles until very recently. However, given that the land administered by Israel has been Muslim since the fall of Acre in 1291, it's hard to say that the Jews have a claim to it any more than the Greeks (through the Byzantine Empire), the French (through Jerusalem) or the Turks (through the Ottoman Empire) do. What I do believe is that:
• we should never have written the Balfour declaration and effectively created Israel.
• we should have supported the Palestinian Arabs during the Nakba.
• Israel being one of the few liberal democracies in the region does not mean we in the West should suck it off constantly or that it should be excused from criticism when it fucks the Palestinians over.
• the borders of Israel are artificial, and as I have previously mentioned, Jews do not have any more right to Israel's territory than Greeks, Frenchmen or Turks.
• it is not anti-Semitic to say any of these things and using anti-Semitism as a tool to beat anti-Zionists with diminishes the very real anti-Semitism that Jews have faced and continue to face throughout their history.
I forget the name of the former US military officer who said, "I don't hate Israel. I hope Israel prospers. But not at the cost of one American life or one American dollar."
Of course this is a rather optimistic and currently unrealistic view. Many powerful people in our government and heads of corporations are too closely tied to Israel for us to disentangle with the nation, and it may not be desirable to completely do so. But the fact is that right now we are in an unequal relationship. Israel puts its own interests first and foremost, which is perfectly natural, but in the US, a majority of politicians seem take it for granted that what's best for Israel is automatically best for America. This isn't always the case, and neocons in particular are notorious for pushing for military intervention in the Middle East with the goal of making Israel more secure and prosperous, despite how America suffers the consequences for it. Even more alarming is the push at home to marginalize and ban any voices of criticism towards Israel. Most recently were the notorious measures enacted against any company that boycotted Israel, laws that don't apply to boycotting any other country.
While there are arguments that can be made for supporting Israel in general, the often mindless, and frequently authoritarian nature of support of Israel by the US government is a very real and serious problem.
Of course this is a rather optimistic and currently unrealistic view. Many powerful people in our government and heads of corporations are too closely tied to Israel for us to disentangle with the nation, and it may not be desirable to completely do so. But the fact is that right now we are in an unequal relationship. Israel puts its own interests first and foremost, which is perfectly natural, but in the US, a majority of politicians seem take it for granted that what's best for Israel is automatically best for America. This isn't always the case, and neocons in particular are notorious for pushing for military intervention in the Middle East with the goal of making Israel more secure and prosperous, despite how America suffers the consequences for it. Even more alarming is the push at home to marginalize and ban any voices of criticism towards Israel. Most recently were the notorious measures enacted against any company that boycotted Israel, laws that don't apply to boycotting any other country.
While there are arguments that can be made for supporting Israel in general, the often mindless, and frequently authoritarian nature of support of Israel by the US government is a very real and serious problem.
Donker
kiwifarms.net
The most positive outcome of Israel Palestine is a Federalised Secular state of Israel and Palestine, that ensures a certain amount of seats federally to ethnic minorities and has a "two state solution" one state being Palestine the other being Israel (or even four, Israel, Gaza, Jerusalem, West Bank) underneath a Federal state.
That I think would be the most positive outcome. It would allow still Jews and Arabs to have some self-autonomy in the regions they control while working together under a larger unified secular civic project. Honestly right now Israel could end a lot of the strife by actually working with Palestinians to help the Palestinian economy develop and engage in cultural exchange (Palestinians are just into Israeli Psytrance as much as Israelis) and create some mutual good will.
The most obvious outcome of Israel and Palestine though as we all know that's coming is just the pushing of Palestinians into Syria, Jordan and Egypt and wholly annexing the West Bank while making life in Gaza intolerable. Israel holds all the cards and Likud has shown repeatedly (and how they came to power through assassinating Rabin) that they have no intention of acting in good faith towards Palestine.
The more annoying thing to me personally with Israel/Palestine, is especially how Israel totally interferes massively with the Democracy of the Anglosphere. What they did to Labour/Corbyn was fucking astonishing and should have been a massive wake up call to foreign interference in domestic Anglosphere politics, along with Australia's former Foreign Minister's expose into the Israeli Lobby claiming they had more access to the Prime Minister on Australian Middle Eastern foreign policy than even he did and we've all seen how US politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, will pretty much openly say they will sell out America and Americans for Israel.
Personally as been involved with campaigns, activism and canvassing and politics for pretty much 20 years now, Western Zionists, are easily the single most disingenuous smearing political actors I've ever, EVER come across.
That I think would be the most positive outcome. It would allow still Jews and Arabs to have some self-autonomy in the regions they control while working together under a larger unified secular civic project. Honestly right now Israel could end a lot of the strife by actually working with Palestinians to help the Palestinian economy develop and engage in cultural exchange (Palestinians are just into Israeli Psytrance as much as Israelis) and create some mutual good will.
The most obvious outcome of Israel and Palestine though as we all know that's coming is just the pushing of Palestinians into Syria, Jordan and Egypt and wholly annexing the West Bank while making life in Gaza intolerable. Israel holds all the cards and Likud has shown repeatedly (and how they came to power through assassinating Rabin) that they have no intention of acting in good faith towards Palestine.
The more annoying thing to me personally with Israel/Palestine, is especially how Israel totally interferes massively with the Democracy of the Anglosphere. What they did to Labour/Corbyn was fucking astonishing and should have been a massive wake up call to foreign interference in domestic Anglosphere politics, along with Australia's former Foreign Minister's expose into the Israeli Lobby claiming they had more access to the Prime Minister on Australian Middle Eastern foreign policy than even he did and we've all seen how US politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, will pretty much openly say they will sell out America and Americans for Israel.
Personally as been involved with campaigns, activism and canvassing and politics for pretty much 20 years now, Western Zionists, are easily the single most disingenuous smearing political actors I've ever, EVER come across.
A secular state is basically impossible because it requires Israel to repeal the Law of Return and the one thing almost all Israeli Jews can agree on is that the Law of Return should stay. It would also require Palestine to take a pragmatic approach to Israel and recognise that a Palestinian state ”from the river to the sea” ain't gonna happen.
As you said, the most likely option is another Nakba and more Israeli totally-not-war-crimes while Palestinians get screwed over both by Likudniks and by their own government which is more concerned about shooting rockets at civilians in Ascalon and Sderot than it is about securing peace and feeding its people.
Donker
kiwifarms.net
Perhaps they could extend right to return to Palestinians, Druze and other ethnic minorities of the region as well. Yeah it gets in the way of "Secularism" but it doesn't have to be black and white. Again ain't happening though so no real point talking about it. I wish the Pro-Palestine side though came to the reality a two state solution is never happening and the West Bank for all intents and purposes is Gonzo.
The sad thing is that Palestine's only in the state it's in because its government refused to behave pragmatically. Israel offered the Pallies several peace plans and they declined, and as a result of people refusing to accept that ”from the river...” ain't happening, we effectively have a one-state solution and more oppression of Palestinians.
Gaza should be annexed by Egypt, and the Westbank re-attached to Jordan. Syria should be allowed to annex Lebanon in return for giving up all claims to the Golan. Jerusalem should become an open city. In return, Israel should expel all non-jewish minorities (Druze, Arab Christians) who live in Ethnostate Israel. It should accept all Israeli settlers living in the Westbank (and work on a constitution). All Palestinians should gain the citizenship of the Arab nation they are currently a refugee in. The UN recognizes those borders. For the rest just a tabula rasa.
Its an extremely insulting and rough solution, but I think this is one of the few solutions that will work long term. Because there are no solutions that are polite. The region is mired in perfidiousness and backstabbing. The bad blood runs too deep on both sides.
Its an extremely insulting and rough solution, but I think this is one of the few solutions that will work long term. Because there are no solutions that are polite. The region is mired in perfidiousness and backstabbing. The bad blood runs too deep on both sides.
*cries in Maronite*
Maronite-Alawite coalition against the sunni Arabs in a decidedly secular baathist syrian state would not be too bad.
It's not perfect but I think it would work.
wtfNeedSignUp
kiwifarms.net
Oh boy, been a while since I started autistic arguments about Israel.
* The idea of Zionism existed since the end of the 19th century. The Balfour decleration might have given some legitimacy to the idea of a jewish country but its roots were already put in place through massive amount of manpower and money invested in the land. Israel would have been created without British support (whatever support that is since the British were notorious for usually siding with the Muslims).
* I could have understood why you'd argue that countries shouldn't have interfered in the 1948 war for independence but arguing that the arabs should have gotten help from other world powers is completely hypocritical. Considering the Israelis approved of the UN's idea to splitting the country, which left them mainly a desert and completely indefensible borders, while the arabs had a temper tantrum and attacked, they got what they fucking deserved for refusing.
* I agree, the problem is when people just ignore the Palestinians actions that just perpetuate their situation. Another annoying thing is organizations like the UN routinely ignore human rights infractions and single out Israel.
* First of all, all borders are artificial, barring some mountain or body of water, there is no clear line that singles the border of neighboring countries. Second of all, there is a massive fallacy here: Until Jews came to Israel it was
* Yes people overuse the argument of anti-semitism as shield for criticism, but there are cases when there are clear double standards against Israel or arguments that are motivated by anti-semitic idea.
Also, the idea of a "Palestinian nationalism" is made-up. Pre-Israel the palestinians wanted to unite the country with Syria as "southern Syria". They failed and created the myth that they have a unique cultural identity and thus deserve their own country.
First of all, I don't get the point of "I'm a nationalist, but...", I doubt there are a lot of countries that weren't taken by force or were created through machinations of larger empires. There is no real reason to single out Israel.
* The idea of Zionism existed since the end of the 19th century. The Balfour decleration might have given some legitimacy to the idea of a jewish country but its roots were already put in place through massive amount of manpower and money invested in the land. Israel would have been created without British support (whatever support that is since the British were notorious for usually siding with the Muslims).
* I could have understood why you'd argue that countries shouldn't have interfered in the 1948 war for independence but arguing that the arabs should have gotten help from other world powers is completely hypocritical. Considering the Israelis approved of the UN's idea to splitting the country, which left them mainly a desert and completely indefensible borders, while the arabs had a temper tantrum and attacked, they got what they fucking deserved for refusing.
* I agree, the problem is when people just ignore the Palestinians actions that just perpetuate their situation. Another annoying thing is organizations like the UN routinely ignore human rights infractions and single out Israel.
* First of all, all borders are artificial, barring some mountain or body of water, there is no clear line that singles the border of neighboring countries. Second of all, there is a massive fallacy here: Until Jews came to Israel it was
The jews made Israel habitable, unlike the previous occupants of the country. So they do have far more right to a territory than anyone else. Not to mention that the idea of legitimacy is 70+ years old by this point. You might as well argue about the USA stealing land from Indians.
* Yes people overuse the argument of anti-semitism as shield for criticism, but there are cases when there are clear double standards against Israel or arguments that are motivated by anti-semitic idea.
Also, the idea of a "Palestinian nationalism" is made-up. Pre-Israel the palestinians wanted to unite the country with Syria as "southern Syria". They failed and created the myth that they have a unique cultural identity and thus deserve their own country.
Israel tried that, Egypt refused because they know the Palestinians are trouble.
Tell that to the Rhodesians and Afrikaners. Especially the Afrikaners. 400+ years on that continent. Still forced to abandon majority rule by international sanctions. And still considered "illegitimate" people who have no right to anything there by huge portions of the both the black population and western liberals to this day.
Overall, I think the Israelis have gotten along into the 21st century amazingly well for any supposed double standards against them.
Indeed. If it's acceptable for Israelis to settle an Arab country then why shouldn't it be acceptable for South Africa to pull all the shit they pulled?
Put simply, what's the difference between the idea that Afrikaners are entitled to rule over South Africa and put ”the kaffir in his place” as the National Party said, and the idea that Israel should exist as a Jewish
wtfNeedSignUp
kiwifarms.net
The big difference is that the Afrikaners fucked up and lost the ability to rule their country. The world doesn't work with participation trophies where you get awarded a country for really deserving it. No, you need to take it away from others, usually bloodily. I don't know a lot of the history of the Afrikaners, but if they are the majority yet despite it they surrendered their autonomy then they are responsible for the state they are in.
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I think the elites are making a very simple mistake of only looking at mathematical measured outcomes instead of the larger picture
How would that affect the world?
